Adam and Eve

[grannymh]

Secondly, withdrawing grace from our first parents was for their personal sin.

The loss of original holiness was due to a greater sin than a personal one. It was the sin which shattered the relationship between Adam, the first human, and his Creator. All of humanity is in Adam “as one body of one man.” Adam committed the Original Sin. (Source: St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4,1; Paragraphs 396 - 406 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition)

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[Sam_777]

Could Adam and Eve have children before the fall?

I think so, BUT I believe without the sexual interaction, similar to Virgin Mary pregnancy.

Maybe the plan was that Adam says to Eve bare me a child then Eve immediately will be pregnant because of Adam’s request.

 

[fred_conty]

The loss of original holiness was due to a greater sin than a personal one. It was the sin which shattered the relationship between Adam, the first human, and his Creator. All of humanity is in Adam “as one body of one man.” Adam committed the Original Sin. (Source: St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4,1; Paragraphs 396 - 406 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition)

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

According to Ludwig Ott, it was Adam’s sin,
"Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.) "
If it was Adam’s then it was personal.

This however doesn’t mean that the effects of the personal sin were kept personal.

Just a thought.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Adam and Eve vould well have had children before the Fall but they would not have been immune to its effects.

Original sin is not inherited genetically but spiritually.

Wrong Tonyrey. " Original sin is transmitted by natural generation." ( De fide) Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, # 23 also Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph # 404

The rest is O.K. I guess the only way to understand this is that Adam and Eve were created in a state of testing with marvelous gifts, to which their offspring would have been heirs. But once they fell their offspring could not be heirs to the original state, so God created their souls in a state of deprevation. However it is explained, it is still a mystery. I mean Generation is of the body only, the soul is not generated, so how explain it really. It can’t be explained in this life I guess.

We are not isolated individuals but members of the same body: the human race.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

 

[grannymh]

Wrong Tonyrey. " Original sin is transmitted by natural generation." ( De fide) Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, # 23 also Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph # 404

The rest is O.K. I guess the only way to understand this is that Adam and Eve were created in a state of testing with marvelous gifts, to which their offspring would have been heirs. But once they fell their offspring could not be heirs to the original state, so God created their souls in a state of deprevation. However it is explained, it is still a mystery. I mean Generation is of the body only, the soul is not generated, so how explain it really. It can’t be explained in this life I guess.

What would you think of this type of explanation for transmission by propagation?

It is human nature, itself, which is transmitted. This is not Cartesian dualism where the body is seen as somehow separate from the soul. Our unique unification of both the material and spiritual worlds is transmitted as one single nature. This unity is so profound that the soul, immediately created by God, is considered to be the “form” of our body consisting of matter. Our human nature was wounded, not destroyed.

It seems to me that since we are human because at the moment of our conception we immediately have a complete human nature, that both immortal soul and decomposing anatomy would have the effects of Original Sin.

Sources: CCC 355-367 & CCC 402-409

 

[Linusthe2nd]

What would you think of this type of explanation for transmission by propagation?

It is human nature, itself, which is transmitted. This is not Cartesian dualism where the body is seen as somehow separate from the soul. Our unique unification of both the material and spiritual worlds is transmitted as one single nature. This unity is so profound that the soul, immediately created by God, is considered to be the “form” of our body consisting of matter. Our human nature was wounded, not destroyed.

It seems to me that since we are human because at the moment of our conception we immediately have a complete human nature, that both immortal soul and decomposing anatomy would have the effects of Original Sin.

Sources: CCC 355-367 & CCC 402-409

Well that is probably correct, if the embryo is living it is human and the human is generated - in a sense. However, in generation only the physical aspects of man are passed on from one generation to another, there is no genetic " soul " material to be passed on. God implants the soul, man does not " pass on " a soul. So in para 404 of the CCC it says “…Still , the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand…”

The body of man has no effect on the soul except to provide the soul with the " tools " necessary for it to be and to act as the substantial form of the human being. It is the soul which is the source of all activity. But the soul was created by God, it was not generated in the sense it could be passed on to another generation. So, how was sin generated?

My big idea. God forsaw the sin(s) of all men ( except Mary and Jesus ) and therefore created them without sanctifying grace ( privation of the special grace Adam and Eve had originally). So in that sense Adam and Eve would have generated men who inherited original sin ( in the sense that their soul was created is a state of privation in regard to scantifying grace). Although, properly speaking, only the body is generated as the soul is implanted - unless you want to give a special definition to " generation. "

Or, as para 404 says, Adam represented the entire human race and what he did would be the fate of all. Since he sinned, his progeny to the end of time would be generated without sanctifying grace ( Mary and Jesus excepted). But still it is only the body that is generated unless you want to give a special definition to " generation. " The soul is implanted, it is not generated. But that is man’s definition, perhaps not God’s and maybe not the Chruch’s either.

 

[cap76]

I would say not because that would mean they would have had sinless offspring and the Gospel hope of Genesis 3:15 might likely have been rooted in that sinless “seed”. But it is speculated that Eve had some hope in Abel and then Seth as indicated by her response when Seth was born, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.” It seems that Eve’s first hope might have been placed on Abel first, then upon Seth.

 

[grannymh]

Well that is probably correct, if the embryo is living it is human and the human is generated - in a sense. However, in generation only the physical aspects of man are passed on from one generation to another, there is no genetic " soul " material to be passed on. God implants the soul, man does not " pass on " a soul. So in para 404 of the CCC it says “…Still , the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand…”

The body of man has no effect on the soul except to provide the soul with the " tools " necessary for it to be and to act as the substantial form of the human being. It is the soul which is the source of all activity. But the soul was created by God, it was not generated in the sense it could be passed on to another generation. So, how was sin generated?

My big idea. God forsaw the sin(s) of all men ( except Mary and Jesus ) and therefore created them without sanctifying grace ( privation of the special grace Adam and Eve had originally). So in that sense Adam and Eve would have generated men who inherited original sin ( in the sense that their soul was created is a state of privation in regard to scantifying grace). Although, properly speaking, only the body is generated as the soul is implanted - unless you want to give a special definition to " generation. "

Or, as para 404 says, Adam represented the entire human race and what he did would be the fate of all. Since he sinned, his progeny to the end of time would be generated without sanctifying grace ( Mary and Jesus excepted). But still it is only the body that is generated unless you want to give a special definition to " generation. " The soul is implanted, it is not generated. But that is man’s definition, perhaps not God’s and maybe not the Chruch’s either.

Since I offered a theory to be considered, here is another idea about the soul. Technically, the soul is not implanted because that may imply that the body was in existence before the soul. Perhaps that difficulty of dualism is why the Catechism uses the word “created” in connection with the formation of human nature. (Source: CCC 362-367)

I absolutely agree with your reference to CCC 404. “Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand…” Perhaps the closest that we can come to understanding the ultimate seriousness of Original Sin is St. Paul’s teaching,
Romans 5: 12-21.

Considering the various human proposed possibilities for the transmission of Original Sin, one thing is certain in regard to the OP question-- Could Adam and Eve have children before the fall?

No. Because we know “by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.” (CCC 404) We also know from CCC 404 that Adam, as the first true, fully complete human person is the source of the unity of the human race. This unity refers ultimately to human nature itself and would not allow some humans to have a nature essentially different from other humans. The breeding of humans before Adam scorned his Creator would ultimately divide the human race into the two groups – superior humans and the …