Adam and Eve

[rossum]

There is a lineage from Adam. That would lead me to believe that believe that this is more modern, rather than ancient. I am not aware of an oral tradition going back tens of thousands of years.

Have a look at the ages of some of the early legendary Chinese rulers. The Heavenly Sovereign (天皇) ruled for 18,000 years, but he was a demigod rather than pure human. His second successor, the Human Sovereign (人皇) founded a dynasty that lasted for 150 generations and spanned 45,000 years.

Ancient peoples had no problems with ascribing long lifetimes to important ancestors.

rossum

 

[buffalo]

Have a look at the ages of some of the early legendary Chinese rulers. The Heavenly Sovereign (天皇) ruled for 18,000 years, but he was a demigod rather than pure human. His second successor, the Human Sovereign (人皇) founded a dynasty that lasted for 150 generations and spanned 45,000 years.

Ancient peoples had no problems with ascribing long lifetimes to important ancestors.

rossum

Speaking of the Chinese - [look here the story of creation in chines characters.

](http://students.washington.edu/cbsf/cool/Chinese.swf)

 

[ValPal]

Have a look at the ages of some of the early legendary Chinese rulers. The Heavenly Sovereign (天皇) ruled for 18,000 years, but he was a demigod rather than pure human. His second successor, the Human Sovereign (人皇) founded a dynasty that lasted for 150 generations and spanned 45,000 years.

Ancient peoples had no problems with ascribing long lifetimes to important ancestors.

rossum

This creates more problems than it solves. The human body is designed to exist only about 122+/- years. Basically, when cells in the human body replace themselves, they do so with minor chromosomal damage. Over time, the chromosomal damage reaches the point where the human body fails. Ages of several hundred, or several thousand years, are simply not possible unless there has been a major change in the DNA of humans…which has never been found. There are also a lot more issues related to this subject, such as the relationship between age, immune function, and regenerative abilities, but I don’t want to go to far off topic.

 

[rossum]

This creates more problems than it solves. The human body is designed to exist only about 122+/- years. Basically, when cells in the human body replace themselves, they do so with minor chromosomal damage. Over time, the chromosomal damage reaches the point where the human body fails. Ages of several hundred, or several thousand years, are simply not possible unless there has been a major change in the DNA of humans…which has never been found. There are also a lot more issues related to this subject, such as the relationship between age, immune function, and regenerative abilities, but I don’t want to go to far off topic.

I agree. My point is that figures who have absurdly long ages ascribed to them are generally legendary or mythological. Some may have originally been a real person, such as King Arthur or Hercules, but the real person has become buried under the legend. Adam is a case in point, living for over 800 years. To me that is a big warning notice, “Don’t take this story too literally”.

rossum

 

[inocente]

Allegory can be used to reveal Divine Intervention which is vocalized within Catholic doctrines. In other words, one needs to do some deep thinking when it comes to the first three chapters of Genesis **and **when it comes to the Gospel of John, chapter six, etc., etc. Accepting Catholicism hangs on a lot more than some fig leaves.

My question wasn’t about me accepting Catholicism but about what that involves.

So if I go on an RCIA and accept everything and do everything right with the one single exception that I admit I will never believe in Adam and Eve in a million years, will that alone stop me from being admitted into the Church?

 

[inocente]

“Pseduo-science,” as you like to call it, is superior to “no-science.” Your discussion starts and ends on a story thousands of years old with no science to back it up.

FWIW, there are a whole lot of non-humans, as you like to call them, running around the Andaman Islands, amongst other places.

Exactly, a real Adam and Eve are not morally credible, for that would mean the good folk of the Andaman Islands are not in God’s image, don’t have souls or original sin, and Christ didn’t die for them.

Pseudoscience, the attempt to make Adam and Eve real people in history, is the worst option, while a fictional Adam and Eve (“no-science” as you call it) doesn’t end up with any moral gaffes.

 

[grannymh]

My question wasn’t about me accepting Catholicism but about what that involves.

So if I go on an RCIA and accept everything and do everything right with the one single exception that I admit I will never believe in Adam and Eve in a million years, will that alone stop me from being admitted into the Church?

Sorry. I am a native of the Andaman Islands; therefore, since I am not human, I cannot answer human questions. (according to posts 34 & 46 )

 

[inocente]

Sorry. I am a native of the Andaman Islands; therefore, since I am not human, I cannot answer human questions. (according to posts 34 & 46 )

My assumption is that I wouldn’t be kept out of the Church for believing Adam and Eve are fictional because there are a zillion things more important to the Church, but no one has given me a straight answer in the past so you’ll be glad to know I wasn’t holding my breath.

We’ve discussed some of the many theories for two real sole parents in the past, and you may remember that when they are thought through every one of them conflicts with a Church doctrine and/or basic Christian morality.

From this, the only reasonable conclusion seems to be that belief in a real Adam and Eve relies on not thinking things through.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

1. 
   *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
   *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
   *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
   *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
   *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
   *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
   *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
   *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
   *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
   *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
   *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
   *] Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
   *] Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
   *] In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
   *] Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

1. 
   Three cheers for Ott.

 

[grannymh]

My assumption is that I wouldn’t be kept out of the Church for believing Adam and Eve are fictional because there are a zillion things more important to the Church, but no one has given me a straight answer in the past so you’ll be glad to know I wasn’t holding my breath.

We’ve discussed some of the many theories for two real sole parents in the past, and you may remember that when they are thought through every one of them conflicts with a Church doctrine and/or basic Christian morality.

From this, the only reasonable conclusion seems to be that belief in a real Adam and Eve relies on not thinking things through.

The real issue is accepting Catholicism – accepting Catholicism without fully understanding everything. This is far deeper than mockery of the “expression” of the basic truth regarding the original relationship between a personal God and His created human person.

The real issue is not one black or white question about a single point regarding the nature of humans. That is probably why you have not received the answer you wish to hear. The real issue is issues, plural intended.

Or maybe, someone in a post somewhere did answer the real questions, for example, what is personal sin and what was The Sin which is the reason that a Divine Christ was needed to repair The Sin’s original damage. This is connected to the Seven Sacraments of Catholicism.

I believe there is an article in Catholic Answers Magazine, explaining the difficulty of intellectual belief and how one can handle it. My memory bank is closed this early in the morning. But if one were sincerely exploring Catholicism to the point where one was taking classes, hopefully good ones, I am sure that a way would be found to handle figurative language referring to an actual event. It might be possible for me to search it out. However, from what I have learned (on CAF) about the three very different ways Christian religions handle the concept of The Sin, my guess is that there is more to the Adam issue than a few fig leaves. Perhaps the real issue is the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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