Adam and Eve

[Swc651]

Are you sure about that? I thought God created everything good and indeed very good. Evil and sin is not the creation of God.

Yes I am certain. Think of it this way. If god had not forbade the fruit, we would have had no opportunity to sin. If we had not had that opportunity, we would not have free will (or the ability to chose right from wrong). In order to create us in His image he had to give us free will and self awareness. Free will requires choice between alternatives (good and evil) and self awareness requires separation from God and creation, and the realization thereof. The only way to create us in his image with free will, reason, and self-awareness was to create the possibility of sin. He created that possibility by forbidding something thereby giving us the opportunity to choose and separate from Him. If there were no sin we could only be good, which means we would have no choice because only one possibility exists. Without choice we cannot separate from God and obtain self awareness. Self awareness requires choice and choice requires sin.

The snake, is not the devil but a representation of the ability to reason- recognize the the ability to sin and weigh alternative choices.

Therefore, original sin is not eternal damnation but the burden of free will. Once we had it, we had to carry it forever and struggle against it.

 

[Swc651]

Ok. As a catholic I identify two births. The first one is when a human being is conceived by his/her parents and God creates a soul for his/her body. The second one is when the human being is made child of God by adoption (baptism). I am not saying that this second birth is a physical one, but is a truly birth as said in John 1:

“11 He came to what was his own, and they who were his own gave him no welcome. 12 But all those who did welcome him, he empowered to become the children of God, all those who believe in his name; 13 their birth came, not from human stock, not from nature’s will or man’s, but from God.” (John 1, 11-13)

You can also see the catechism, for example number 1265.

OIC, I totally agree. The second birth is the representation of our ability to choose God rather than separation from God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi RebeccaJ. Yeah! We believe that, but What do mormons believe about John 1, 11-13 ? Don’t they teach that we all are children of God from the eternity? Then… How can we become children of God again?

Most likely they view it as symbolic.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hi zaffiroborant, nice to meet you.

Right! Good point. I see also a contradiction between that doctrine and what is said in John 1, 11-13. I wondered how that doctrine could be explained.

How many kind of births!. At least I can count three:
First, from Heavenly Parents.
Second, from our earthly parents.
Third, (for example John 3, 5), the called “born again” or baptism.

But according to John 1, 11-13 we are not children of God until we believe in Christ.

“Children of” and “birth” can have different meanings. I am a child of the 1970s, but I was not birthed by the decade. A rebirth, or being born again is not the same as traveling through the birth canal. It can mean the completion of a transition or starting a major change. I can give birth to an idea, meaning to think it up, without physically expelling it from my body.

So you are saying you agree that we are the literal offspring of heavenly parents?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Yes I am certain. Think of it this way. If god had not forbade the fruit, we would have had no opportunity to sin. If we had not had that opportunity, we would not have free will (or the ability to chose right from wrong). In order to create us in His image he had to give us free will and self awareness. Free will requires choice between alternatives (good and evil) and self awareness requires separation from God and creation, and the realization thereof. The only way to create us in his image with free will, reason, and self-awareness was to create the possibility of sin. He created that possibility by forbidding something thereby giving us the opportunity to choose and separate from Him. If there were no sin we could only be good, which means we would have no choice because only one possibility exists. Without choice we cannot separate from God and obtain self awareness. Self awareness requires choice and choice requires sin.

The snake, is not the devil but a representation of the ability to reason- recognize the the ability to sin and weigh alternative choices.

Therefore, original sin is not eternal damnation but the burden of free will. Once we had it, we had to carry it forever and struggle against it.

For some reason this brings to mind various words, like troll and poseur, that second word…and a need for one that combines the two.

 

[HojaVerde]

So you are saying you agree that we are the literal offspring of heavenly parents?

No, I’m not. I was trying to understand the mormon position. I see weird the number of kind of births in which they believe… or in which I think they believe. I would like to know it!

 

[HojaVerde]

Hi Swc651, you said God created evil and sin some posts earlier… And I can’t agree with you.

I believe in God creator of everything. He created everything good. And I also believe in His Church who teaches the following:

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it. (Catechism)

 

[mtolympus]

Hi HojaVerde.
Thank you for you questions and interesting thoughts. Sorry, I often do not have time to respond promply. Your count of births is quite accurate regarding LDS teachings.
I will give step by step as I understand LDS teachings:

I see also a contradiction between that doctrine and what is said in John 1, 11-13. I wondered how that doctrine could be explained.

How many kind of births!. At least I can count three:
First, from Heavenly Parents.

1- Man is eternal with God: “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be.” (D&C 93:29.)

2- Everything was created spiritually before it was naturally on the earth. The natural creation followed the pattern of of the spiritual creation. In my opinion, Genesis 1 is speaking of the spiritual creation.

3- Those described as angels in heaven are the spirit children of God:

“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast under-standing. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7)

4- Here Jesus was the first born: “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, and the angels of God worship him.” (Heb. 1:6)

5- John the Baptist was sent from God. (John 1:6)

Second, from our earthly parents.

LDS believe Jesus is literally the only begotten Son of God. (1 John 4:9)

Third, (for example John 3, 5), the called “born again” or baptism.

But according to John 1, 11-13 we are not children of God until we believe in Christ.

Yes, LDS believe this and it can become very confusing with other births.

“But verily, verily, I say unto you, that as many as receive me, to them will I give power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on my name, Amen.” (D&C 11:30) (LDS believe D&C is revelation from Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith)

 

[HojaVerde]

Hi HojaVerde.
Thank you for you questions and interesting thoughts. Sorry, I often do not have time to respond promply. Your count of births is quite accurate regarding LDS teachings.

I appreciate your answers. Don’t worry if you don’t have time, there’s no problem!

Now I understand better your position. But I still continue seeing a contradiction in the mormon believing, between the following two facts:

• Being spiritual children from Heavenly Parents (I understand not from eternity, but before coming to earth).
• The fact that Christ gives us the power to become children of God.

The thing is: If Christ gives the power to people to become children of God, that means that people are not truly children of God until they believe.
And vice-versa: If people are children of God from the beginning, there’s no necessary to become children of God by the power given by Christ.

How do you reconcile the two statements? Thank you in advance!

 

[mtolympus]

I appreciate your answers. Don’t worry if you don’t have time, there’s no problem!

Now I understand better your position. But I still continue seeing a contradiction in the mormon believing, between the following two facts:

• Being spiritual children from Heavenly Parents (I understand not from eternity, but before coming to earth).
• The fact that Christ gives us the power to become children of God.

The thing is: If Christ gives the power to people to become children of God, that means that people are not truly children of God until they believe.
And vice-versa: If people are children of God from the beginning, there’s no necessary to become children of God by the power given by Christ.

How do you reconcile the two statements? Thank you in advance!

That is a good question.

In mortality, because of sin, we are separated from God which is spiritual death. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can we restore the blessings associated with being childred of God which we once had. I think being reconciled to God implies restoring something we had before, which has been lost.

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.” (2 Cor. 5:18)

 

[RebeccaJ]

That is a good question.

In mortality, because of sin, we are separated from God which is spiritual death. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can we restore the blessings associated with being childred of God which we once had. I think being reconciled to God implies restoring something we had before, which has been lost.

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.” (2 Cor. 5:18)

At what point do you un-become a child of God?

 

[mtolympus]

At what point do you un-become a child of God?

Apparently, we lose the status as “children of God” in some sense when we enter mortality and because of sin we are separated from God. (Spiritual death). We can only fully regain this status by being “born again” by which, through Jesus Christ, we can be reconciled to God.

 

[HojaVerde]

That is a good question.

In mortality, because of sin, we are separated from God which is spiritual death. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can we restore the blessings associated with being childred of God which we once had. I think being reconciled to God implies restoring something we had before, which has been lost.

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.” (2 Cor. 5:18)

Hi Mtolympus!

Having the two conflicting statements into account I thought that the only way to (somehow) reconcile the two ones was giving an answer like the one you have. In my opinion an answer like that or one similar was the only logical possibility to solve or fix the contradiction.

The question made by RebeccaJ seems to me very interesting, and also your answer to it. Now I have some more questions according to your believing:

• Did Adam and Eve lose their status as children of God when God created a body for them? If so, why?
• Did Christ lose his status as child of God when he become flesh? If not, why?
• Is there a reason why the rest of the people lose their status as children of God when they “enter mortality”? have you got quotes from the bible that could support it?

By the way, is the word sonship correct? Could it be theologically used to explain the relationship between a father and a son? Or are other synonyms more common in English for this purpose?

I was going to write more things that I thought but today I don’t have more time. I thank you for the conversation, it’s nice.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Apparently, we lose the status as “children of God” in some sense when we enter mortality and because of sin we are separated from God. (Spiritual death). We can only fully regain this status by being “born again” by which, through Jesus Christ, we can be reconciled to God.

Minus the LDS belief/concept of a pre-existence, you’ve just described the doctrine of Original Sin.

 

[Nicea325]

mtolympus:

1- Man is eternal with God: “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be.” (D&C 93:29.)

Theologically the above is false. Man is NOT eternal and never was been with God in the beginning. If man is Eternal,than that makes man to be God. Bad theology…bad.

 

[SteveVH]

Minus the LDS belief/concept of a pre-existence, you’ve just described the doctrine of Original Sin.

You took the words right out of my mouth. The problem I see is that the Mormon version of salvation history holds that we gained, rather than lost something due to the sin of Adam. We gained knowledge and even free will. What we call original sin, in which we lost eternal life, was a good and necessary thing, even honorable, in the Mormon mind.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You took the words right out of my mouth. The problem I see is that the Mormon version of salvation history holds that we gained, rather than lost something due to the sin of Adam. We gained knowledge and even free will. What we call original sin, in which we lost eternal life, was a good and necessary thing, even honorable, in the Mormon mind.

Ultimately, the Mormon view is the Fall was necessary to achieve individual godhood. I’ve never seen where LDS “theology” (such that it is) can explain how God setting up Adam and Eve to require they sin, in order to become divine, is moral. It is one of the reasons I view the Mormon God, as a false god.

 

[Robert_Hagedorn]

Google first scandal.

 

[SteveVH]

Google first scandal.

Why don’t you instead just join in the discussion.

 

[Robert_Hagedorn]

What kind of an apple do you think Adam and Eve ate? Granny Smith is a sour apple usually used for cooking.