Adam and Eve

[TheIrishman]

It is a very strict code, one that the students sign to in agreement as part of the admittance process. Students are encouraged to monitor and report each other.

My grandpa went to Notre Dame University and he mentioned that they also have a strict “honor code”. Grant it, it’s different then BYU’s of course but some rules still apply. I’m not too bothered by it, especially when you have great roommates like I do who simply know that if you break the “curfew rule” you won’t be eternally damned. We just adhere to the big ones, like no drugs or alcohol. That kind of stuff. But in all honesty, if an endowed member such as myself were to suddenly decide to become Catholic, like i’m seriously considering, and do become Catholic. I would be treated as if I did drugs and drank myself to death. And would most likely be kicked out of school.

I’m not being biased, i’m being truthful. I’ve had friends get kicked out of school for having girls in their rooms. One friend of mine got on probation because he went to class in shorts.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My grandpa went to Notre Dame University and he mentioned that they also have a strict “honor code”. Grant it, it’s different then BYU’s of course but some rules still apply. I’m not too bothered by it, especially when you have great roommates like I do who simply know that if you break the “curfew rule” you won’t be eternally damned. We just adhere to the big ones, like no drugs or alcohol. That kind of stuff. But in all honesty, if an endowed member such as myself were to suddenly decide to become Catholic, like i’m seriously considering, and do become Catholic. I would be treated as if I did drugs and drank myself to death. And would most likely be kicked out of school.

I’m not being biased, i’m being truthful. I’ve had friends get kicked out of school for having girls in their rooms. One friend of mine got on probation because he went to class in shorts.

Yes, I know plenty of BYU students, current and alumni. My niece was kicked out for being at an apt. past midnight with a mixed group of friends. Someone in the off-campus apt. complex reported them. She thought it was dumb, but that’s how it is.

I know you risk being the pariah, and the greater risk of not being able to finish out your education. You’ve also expressed concerns about the risks for your soul, in not being baptized. That is why I recommend you talk to a priest at a local parish. Most likely it is not a new problem for him, and can recommend the best course of action that is honest to yourself, the academic commitments you have and your commitment to God.

 

[SteveVH]

I’ve got another question now that has rose from these discussions.

Steve, you mention that Christ baptism isn’t a Christian baptism, what do you mean by this?

From the Catholic point of view, Christian Baptism is necessary for the remission of sins. Why would Jesus need this if he is God, and therefore sinless? He did receive the baptism of John but that was only to show his obedience to the Father and to show forth his true nature as the second Person of the Trinity. John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, not regeneration. In Christian baptism we gain from Christ what we lost through Adam, specifically eternal life.

When Christ was born, did he have the same original sin on Him that we have on us? I’m not sure if i’m conveying this question properly so let me know if you understand what i’m asking.

Thanks again for the knowledge.

Christ was like us in everything but sin. No, he was not born subject to original sin. He came to save us from that sin as well as our personal sins. It is impossible for Christ to sin because it is impossible for God to sin. That is why he is the perfect sacrifice, the unblemished lamb.

 

[TheIrishman]

From the Catholic point of view, Christian Baptism is necessary for the remission of sins. Why would Jesus need this if he is God, and therefore sinless? He did receive the baptism of John but that was only to show his obedience to the Father and to show forth his true nature as the second Person of the Trinity. John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, not regeneration. In Christian baptism we gain from Christ what we lost through Adam, specifically eternal life.

Christ was like us in everything but sin. No, he was not born subject to original sin. He came to save us from that sin as well as our personal sins. It is impossible for Christ to sin because it is impossible for God to sin. That is why he is the perfect sacrifice, the unblemished lamb.

Interesting stuff, this is all new to me so it’s very exciting to learn this. You may find this as obvious as the existence of the sun but for me, it’s just now starting to make sense. I thank you for your explanation.

 

[mtolympus]

The baptism of John cannot be compared to Christian Baptism. They are two different things.

There is only one baptism: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Eph. 4:4-5)

Did I say something different?

You said that Christ didn’t have a Christian Baptism. Since there is only one baptism what kind of baptism did he have?

Adam’s sin resulted in spiritual death as well as physical death. Through Baptism, our spiritual life is restored. That is what we lost and that is what we gain. Christ’s redemption of mankind made this possible, but it is only accomplished through Baptism.

Yes, through the baptism of repentance. Which, if I understand you right, is different from the Catholic baptism.

Be careful here. It is ALL those that are in Christ that will be made alive. We will not be made alive if we reject Christ. We know from Christ himself that not all will be made alive but that some will suffer eternal death (hell). That knowledge must be considered when interpreting a verse such as this.

No, ALL will be made alive. This scripture is clearly talking about physical death being restored by the resurrection. It is very clear:

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:20-22) (emphasis added)

Spiritual death can be overcome by obedience to Christ. Baptism and repentance **of our own sins **is required as shown in the case of Paul:

“And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16) emphais added

 

[SteveVH]

Interesting stuff, this is all new to me so it’s very exciting to learn this. You may find this as obvious as the existence of the sun but for me, it’s just now starting to make sense. I thank you for your explanation.

I think some of your confusion emanates form the Mormon view of God as an exalted human being. When we anthropomorphize God, we make him in our own image, rather than the other way around. We attribute human characteristics to an eternal being who, in reality, we cannot begin to fathom. Any human attempt to describe God, (even by the Pope) can only diminish him.

 

[TheIrishman]

Yes, I know plenty of BYU students, current and alumni. My niece was kicked out for being at an apt. past midnight with a mixed group of friends. Someone in the off-campus apt. complex reported them. She thought it was dumb, but that’s how it is.

I know you risk being the pariah, and the greater risk of not being able to finish out your education. You’ve also expressed concerns about the risks for your soul, in not being baptized. That is why I recommend you talk to a priest at a local parish. Most likely it is not a new problem for him, and can recommend the best course of action that is honest to yourself, the academic commitments you have and your commitment to God.

The only time i’ve been in a Catholic Church was when I took my district to Midnight Mass lol my mission president didn’t like that too much but I explained it was a great way to better understand our Catholic brother and sisters.

To be honest, I wouldn’t even know where to begin talking with a priest.

 

[TheIrishman]

I think some of your confusion emanates form the Mormon view of God as an exalted human being. When we anthropomorphize God, we make him in our own image, rather than the other way around. We attribute human characteristics to an eternal being who, in reality, we cannot begin to fathom. Any human attempt to describe God, (even by the Pope) can only diminish him.

So what do Catholics believe when God says “let us make man in our image”.

 

[SteveVH]

There is only one baptism: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Eph. 4:4-5)

Paul is obviously speaking post resurrection and ascension. And he is correct, after Christ there is only one Baptism and it is a Baptism of new birth in Christ. The Baptism of repentance (John’s Baptism) is superseded by the Baptism of new birth.

You said that Christ didn’t have a Christian Baptism. Since there is only one baptism what kind of baptism did he have?

He had the Baptism of Repentance out of obedience to his Father, as an example to us and to show forth his true nature as the second person of the Trinity. John’s baptism saved no one. It was a call to repent and turn around one’s life. Christian Baptism saves souls by giving them new life. Jesus did not need to be saved because he did not need new life. He already had it.

Yes, through the baptism of repentance. Which, if I understand you right, is different from the Catholic baptism.

It is different than Christian Baptism for the reasons I have already explained.

No, ALL will be made alive. This scripture is clearly talking about physical death being restored by the resurrection. It is very clear:

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:20-22) (emphasis added)

Spiritual death can be overcome by obedience to Christ. Baptism and repentance **of our own sins **is required as shown in the case of Paul:

“And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16) emphais added

We have already been over this ground. If you catch my disease it becomes your disease. If I get my dirt on you it becomes now your dirt and your dirt must be washed away.

 

[kimg901]

So what do Catholics believe when God says “let us make man in our image”.

The way I understood it is because God and Jesus are one in the same so the term “Let us make man in our image” refers to God and Jesus. But if that confuses you, you could say God meant like Him and the angels before us. When angels appear, they are like men (or woman) so we wouldnt be overwhelmed by their true form. Now this is just my own opinion and does not reflect the CC’s teachings.

 

[kimg901]

The LDS Christ was baptised by John the baptist.

So by your teachings (lds) and beliefs, and apostacy occured with the death of the last Apostle but yet John the Baptist baptised the lds church? So how does an apostacy occur? Contradiction maybe?

 

[SteveVH]

So what do Catholics believe when God says “let us make man in our image”.

It is a reference to the Trinity. So one must ask the question: Are we made in three different images or in one image? And if it is one image (the image of God) then what does that say about that verse? We were not made in the image of more than one being, yet the verse is in the plural. We are made in the image of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are One God, not three.

 

[kimg901]

It is a reference to the Trinity. So one must ask the question: Are we made in three different images or in one image? And if it is one image (the image of God) then what does that say about that verse? We were not made in the image of more than one being, yet the verse is in the plural. We are made in the image of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are One God, not three.

Yea, what he said!

 

[SteveVH]

The way I understood it is because God and Jesus are one in the same so the term “Let us make man in our image” refers to God and Jesus. But if that confuses you, you could say God meant like Him and the angels before us. When angels appear, they are like men (or woman) so we wouldnt be overwhelmed by their true form. Now this is just my own opinion and does not reflect the CC’s teachings.

Yeah, we need to be a little careful here. Nowhere does the Church teach or Scripture say that we are made in the image of angels. They are creatures, just as are we. We are made in the image and likeness of God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is to whom the “our” refers.

 

[kimg901]

Yeah, we need to be a little careful here. Nowhere does the Church teach or Scripture say that we are made in the image of angels. They are creatures, just as are we. We are made in the image and likeness of God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is to whom the “our” refers.

I only referenced angels because they were here before us and many fought against satan because God loved us so. My bad though. And you are correct, “our” refers to the Blessed Trinity!

 

[grannymh]

In the Catholic Church,
being made in the “image of God” means that every human individual has a spiritual soul. Our human nature is an unique unification of both the material world of decomposing anatomies and the spiritual world of our infinite Creator.

The Catholic teaching is that God calls each of us to share in His life here and in eternity. Because we are in the image of God, we can share in God’s life through knowledge and love. As humans, we can also reject God.

 

[mtolympus]

Paul is obviously speaking post resurrection and ascension. And he is correct, after Christ there is only one Baptism and it is a Baptism of new birth in Christ. The Baptism of repentance (John’s Baptism) is superseded by the Baptism of new birth.

Paul was also obviously baptised post resurrection and ascension, and he was baptised to wash away his sins:

“And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16) emphais added

He had the Baptism of Repentance out of obedience to his Father, as an example to us and to show forth his true nature as the second person of the Trinity. John’s baptism saved no one. It was a call to repent and turn around one’s life. Christian Baptism saves souls by giving them new life. Jesus did not need to be saved because he did not need new life. He already had it.

There is only one baptism. It is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. When we repent and are baptised our sins are washed away, we are born again and walk in the newness of life. We are baptised for the remission of sins so that we can be saved through the blood of Christ which was shed for many for the rimission of sins:

“And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt. 26:27-28). emphasis added

The Catholic baptism is post apostolic. Peter and the apostles taught the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins:

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:36-38) And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine…(Acts 2:42)

 

[RebeccaJ]

The only time i’ve been in a Catholic Church was when I took my district to Midnight Mass lol my mission president didn’t like that too much but I explained it was a great way to better understand our Catholic brother and sisters.

To be honest, I wouldn’t even know where to begin talking with a priest.

Follow your conscience, in prayer, study of scripture (Bible) and discernment.

I went to Mass for over a year, on my own, and studied on my own. But, I had no intention of converting. I was just curious about Christianity! God had different plans. There came a point where I couldn’t deny what God was doing in my life, and where reason was leading me as well. It was more like, God grabbed me and wouldn’t let go. That was very disconcerting to an atheist. It took a while for me to accept God’s love.

 

[grannymh]

Paul was also obviously baptised post resurrection and ascension, and he was baptised to wash away his sins:

“And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16) emphais added

There is only one baptism. It is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. When we repent and are baptised our sins are washed away, we are born again and walk in the newness of life. We are baptised for the remission of sins so that we can be saved through the blood of Christ which was shed for many for the rimission of sins:

“And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt. 26:27-28). emphasis added

The Catholic baptism is post apostolic. Peter and the apostles taught the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ

for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:36-38) And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine…(Acts 2:42)

The Catholic Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ, Himself. Matthew 28: 16-20

 

[RebeccaJ]

Paul was also obviously baptised post resurrection and ascension, and he was baptised to wash away his sins:

“And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16) emphais added

There is only one baptism. It is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. When we repent and are baptised our sins are washed away, we are born again and walk in the newness of life. We are baptised for the remission of sins so that we can be saved through the blood of Christ which was shed for many for the rimission of sins:

“And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt. 26:27-28). emphasis added

The Catholic baptism is post apostolic. Peter and the apostles taught the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ

for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:36-38) And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine…(Acts 2:42)

There is no Christian baptism until Christ. We are buried and raised with HIM, not with John the Baptist. A Christian baptism has no meaning without the Cross and Resurrection.

Christ, in His baptism, made the waters holy for us, not for Himself. The Sacraments are for our benefit, not for God’s benefit, as God has no need.

Christ’s baptism prepared Him for His ministry, which began at His baptism. He showed us who He is, the Son of the Father, and that His purpose was the Father’s.