Adam and Eve

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Waynec

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Hi,

I am in a discussion with a JW and she says that God did not know that Adam and Eve would be disobedient. She said that if He knew that He probably would have not created them. She also said that God could have known if He wanted to but he chose not to know. Sounds circular to me. If God didn’t know then he would have had to scramble to find a savior for us.

I told her that God knew from the beginning that they would sin for the simple fact that he IS God.

Is there any Catholic teaching on the subject?

Thanks
 
Waynec said:
Hi,

I am in a discussion with a JW and she says that **God did not know **that Adam and Eve would be disobedient. She said that if He knew that He probably would have not created them. She also said that God could have known if He wanted to but he chose not to know. Sounds circular to me. If God didn’t know then he would have had to scramble to find a savior for us.

I told her that God knew from the beginning that they would sin for the simple fact that he IS God.

Is there any Catholic teaching on the subject?

Thanks
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Write the bolded words on a piece of paper next time.

Sometimes a visual helps clear the mind.

Another angle is the ‘outside of time’ angle.

ask her to reconcile ‘outside of time’ with the period of time that would be ‘no knowledge’ to ‘knowledge’ of an event.

Don’t let her spiral too long before going back to the piece of paper and confirming that if there is anything we can hang our hat on…

God knows all, all the time.
 
He knew. Redemption wasn’t “Plan B”. He knew and he still created us with free will just the same because, in some mysterious way, the Fall and Redemption of man was the best thing that could happen to us.
 
Yes, God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. He is omniscient. Believing he didn’t know would negate this quality from God.
 
This is very good. Thanks. She won’t beleive this because it isn’t written by Watchtower.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Yes, God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. He is omniscient. Believing he didn’t know would negate this quality from God.
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She is not denying His omniscient. It is that He just CHOOSES not to know. So round and round we go. I should learn already. It is most frustrating talking with her.
 
Thank you all. You all just confirmed what I said to her was the truth.
 
Waynec said:
She is not denying His omniscient. It is that He just CHOOSES not to know. So round and round we go. I should learn already. It is most frustrating talking with her.
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God can’t “choose to not know.” He is God. That is like the silly proposition, “If God is all powerful, then he could create a rock he could not lift, yet if he all powerful then he should be able to life the rock.” God can’t create a rock he cannot lift because it’s a logical fallacy. So God cannot choose not to know either because that would be a logical fallacy.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
God can’t “choose to not know.” He is God. That is like the silly proposition, “If God is all powerful, then he could create a rock he could not lift, yet if he all powerful then he should be able to life the rock.” God can’t create a rock he cannot lift because it’s a logical fallacy. So God cannot choose not to know either because that would be a logical fallacy.
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👍
 
Waynec said:
Hi,

I am in a discussion with a JW and she says that God did not know that Adam and Eve would be disobedient. She said that if He knew that He probably would have not created them. She also said that God could have known if He wanted to but he chose not to know. Sounds circular to me. If God didn’t know then he would have had to scramble to find a savior for us.

I told her that God knew from the beginning that they would sin for the simple fact that he IS God.

Is there any Catholic teaching on the subject?

Thanks
Click to expand...
The Church doesn’t even consider that God didn’t know. From the Catechism:

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308
 
Waynec said:
Hi,

I am in a discussion with a JW and she says that God did not know that Adam and Eve would be disobedient. She said that if He knew that He probably would have not created them. She also said that God could have known if He wanted to but he chose not to know. Sounds circular to me. If God didn’t know then he would have had to scramble to find a savior for us.

I told her that God knew from the beginning that they would sin for the simple fact that he IS God.

Is there any Catholic teaching on the subject?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Hi. Just to say that it can be a mistake to get into arguments/conversations/debates with JWs. I would not answer your post unless I had extra details (which I am not asking for), but only to say, that if this JW was part of a group, I wouldn’t enter into discussion in the first place (plenty of reasons for saying that).
 
Waynec said:
She is not denying His omniscient. It is that He just CHOOSES not to know. So round and round we go. I should learn already. It is most frustrating talking with her.
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Perhaps ask her to demonstrate the ability to choose against that which one doesn’t know.

Then you can explain, choice, by definition, requires a knowledge of more than 1 option.

Nobody can choose to not know what they don’t know.
 
ffg said:
Perhaps ask her to demonstrate the ability to choose against that which one doesn’t know.

Then you can explain, choice, by definition, requires a knowledge of more than 1 option.

Nobody chooses to not know what they don’t know.
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Yes, about as hard as choosing not to know something you* do* know. 🙂
 
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