Adam and Eve's spiritual awareness

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Would appreciate some insights to this question.

How much spiritual awareness did Adam and Eve have?

If they had sufficient knowledge of death, evil, good, why would they think that they could have been Gods without the one God before them?

We know we can’t know everything about God, but we have been given knowledge of him through Jesus, we for most part know we can not be God’s, that God is working through us and we can hopefully be at peace, leaving our lives in his care.

But the first two fully complete adult humans, filled with grace, still must have felt empty, or restless if they let pride over take their rational minds?
 
That brings up an interesting point. If they did not have the knowledge of good and evil at the time they actually ate the apple, then certainly it would not have qualified today, as a “mortal” sin. And yet the sin brought death… :hmmm:

That’s when you really need a soul, I guess. 😃

Either that, or in the kingdom of heaven we can be sentenced for breaking law ex post facto. :rolleyes:

Guess that’s why the “second Adam” had to come and reverse the polarity. :grouphug:
 
That brings up an interesting point. If they did not have the knowledge of good and evil at the time they actually ate the apple, then certainly it would not have qualified today, as a “mortal” sin. And yet the sin brought death… :hmmm:

That’s when you really need a soul, I guess. 😃

Either that, or in the kingdom of heaven we can be sentenced for breaking law ex post facto. :rolleyes:

Guess that’s why the “second Adam” had to come and reverse the polarity. :grouphug:
Quick suggestion.

One can learn the Catholic teachings about the original Adam and his Original Sin in paragraphs 355-421 of the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Enjoy learning the Catholic Faith. It is the best.👍
 
I thought the key sin of Adam and Eva was disobedience. They didn’t need to have the knowledge of what the tree represented, they needed to obey God when He told them not to eat of the tree. Seems like disobedience came first then the knowledge of what good and evil was and its consequences.
 
That brings up an interesting point. If they did not have the knowledge of good and evil at the time they actually ate the apple, then certainly it would not have qualified today, as a “mortal” sin. And yet the sin brought death… :hmmm:

That’s when you really need a soul, I guess. 😃

Either that, or in the kingdom of heaven we can be sentenced for breaking law ex post facto. :rolleyes:

Guess that’s why the “second Adam” had to come and reverse the polarity. :grouphug:
Thanks

The point is that they didn’t need more knowledge of good and evil, because God as a loving God would have given enough knowledge so that they could be rational about a decision that would effect the entire human race.
They don’t sound very rational, knowing what they knew, how they could be tricked into believing they could become God’s is beyond me.
 
I thought the key sin of Adam and Eva was disobedience. They didn’t need to have the knowledge of what the tree represented, they needed to obey God when He told them not to eat of the tree. Seems like disobedience came first then the knowledge of what good and evil was and its consequences.
Yes disobedience of God’s command was the sin. But they (it seems) would have known of the consequences of good and evil and still went ahead and believed satan.
 
The sin was of disobedience to God, not desire to be like God.

That being said, the book of Genesis is generally treated as allegorical by scholars these days.

Adam and Eve eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge, is most likely symbolic and not an actual fruit tree, usually we think of an apple tree.

However, the first humans fell from God’s grace because of the first sin committed and this put the human race into the world of suffering and death which we live in.

In all, our focus should be on Jesus, who is called the New Adam, for it is through Him we are reconciled back to God.

Jim
 
The sin was of disobedience to God, not desire to be like God.

That being said, the book of Genesis is generally treated as allegorical by scholars these days.

Adam and Eve eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge, is most likely symbolic and not an actual fruit tree, usually we think of an apple tree.

However, the first humans fell from God’s grace because of the first sin committed and this put the human race into the world of suffering and death which we live in.

In all, our focus should be on Jesus, who is called the New Adam, for it is through Him we are reconciled back to God.

Jim
Thanks.

Yes, but even though Jesus died and rose again, paying for the sin of Adam, showing there is life after death spiritually and physically it did not stop humans being born without original grace and justice, we are still born fallen according to our church. When Jesus paid for the sin of Adam, why wasn’t this sin wiped clean from the human, sort of a fresh start if Jesus is the new Adam?
We came bodily from Adam, but spiritually from Christ. Two parts united.

There seems to be some desire to be like God, that was the temptation offered, would be like God, knowing good and evil, and they would not die.
They don’t trust God’s word…
Why?
Knowing what they knew, they had doubt.
How do two complete adult humans with sufficient knowledge, living at peace with God, self and other (no sin) fall into pride, disobedience? Out of the two of them, surely one would have been stronger?
If we can come to a peace within and without in a fallen world, why could the first two not do so, living in a garden of peace?

It is an interesting story to ponder.
 
I’m glad our children were taught to treat Genesis and Revelation as figurative.

All it takes is one good discussion with a literalist to see how insane it is to try to retrofit meaning into specific elements of behavior that was allegorical in the first place. The Church may allow literalistic interpretation, but I’ve never heard of one that actually points to anything useful afa I can tell. If you can get a geocentrist involved, that makes it even better as they refuse to believe in the concept of reference frames and they have speakers who lie about it by making weird arguments that rely on using separate reference frames to debunk themselves… it’s like the World Olympics in mental gymnastics.

There is a humerous animated interpretation by an atheist YouTuber (who used to be funnier but he’s gotten pretty full of himself – go figure) called “If Man Obeyed God” It shows a frustrated God who did everything He could to entice Adam to eat the apple, but Adam remained obedient and things didn’t really work well. With no death, and no pain to childbirth – it gets interesting. Its intent may be to debunk religions, but it shouldn’t be a threat to Catholics as it plays on the absurdity of a literal interpretation. That said, I won’t link to it except upon PM request.
 
I’m glad our children were taught to treat Genesis and Revelation as figurative.
I cannot speak for the 50 chapters in Genesis.

What I am most interested in is – What Catholic doctrines did the children learn from the first three chapters of Genesis? Did they learn that Jesus Christ is Divine or not?

Adam and Eve were spiritually aware of Divinity. They were in the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace: sharing in the life of God during their journey to the Beatific Vision.
 
I’m glad our children were taught to treat Genesis and Revelation as figurative.

All it takes is one good discussion with a literalist to see how insane it is to try to retrofit meaning into specific elements of behavior that was allegorical in the first place. The Church may allow literalistic interpretation, but I’ve never heard of one that actually points to anything useful afa I can tell. If you can get a geocentrist involved, that makes it even better as they refuse to believe in the concept of reference frames and they have speakers who lie about it by making weird arguments that rely on using separate reference frames to debunk themselves… it’s like the World Olympics in mental gymnastics.

There is a humerous animated interpretation by an atheist YouTuber (who used to be funnier but he’s gotten pretty full of himself – go figure) called “If Man Obeyed God” It shows a frustrated God who did everything He could to entice Adam to eat the apple, but Adam remained obedient and things didn’t really work well. With no death, and no pain to childbirth – it gets interesting. Its intent may be to debunk religions, but it shouldn’t be a threat to Catholics as it plays on the absurdity of a literal interpretation. That said, I won’t link to it except upon PM request.
Were you taught that genesis and revelation was figurative?

If it’s figurative, that would mean Jesus did not rise from the dead literally?

That he died to his false self and became one with the divine, showing us that path also?

Thanks.
 
Were you taught that genesis and revelation was figurative?

If it’s figurative, that would mean Jesus did not rise from the dead literally?

That he died to his false self and became one with the divine, showing us that path also?

Thanks.
Why would you draw this conclusion ?

Even if the story of Adam and Eve is figurative, its still the story of the fall of mankind, however that happened and the human race still needed redemption.

Jesus gave us redemption and His story is fact.

Jim
 
Were you taught that genesis and revelation was figurative?

If it’s figurative, that would mean Jesus did not rise from the dead literally?

That he died to his false self and became one with the divine, showing us that path also?

Thanks.
The kids were taught that. Personally I was taught practically nothing about Catholic faith, in 8 years of Catholic school around 1970. Religion was mostly feel good stuff and seemingly unrelated stories about Jonah and the whale, and things like that. Lots about going to Mass and standing with all heads perfectly lined up for Communion.

The rising from the dead is covered in other books, so it doesn’t depend on Genesis and Revelation.

As far as dying to his false self, etc. I’m pretty sure that’s the formula he was advocating, 1) deny yourself, 2) take up cross, and 3) follow me.
 
Why would you draw this conclusion ?

Even if the story of Adam and Eve is figurative, its still the story of the fall of mankind, however that happened and the human race still needed redemption.

Jesus gave us redemption and His story is fact.

Jim
Mystical Seeker said both genesis and revelation were taught as figurative to their children.

Yes maybe it wasn’t an actual fruit on a tree because it is said to be figurative, but if revelation is thought as figurative, then Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead.
 
The kids were taught that. Personally I was taught practically nothing about Catholic faith, in 8 years of Catholic school around 1970. Religion was mostly feel good stuff and seemingly unrelated stories about Jonah and the whale, and things like that. Lots about going to Mass and standing with all heads perfectly lined up for Communion.

The rising from the dead is covered in other books, so it doesn’t depend on Genesis and Revelation.

As far as dying to his false self, etc. I’m pretty sure that’s the formula he was advocating, 1) deny yourself, 2) take up cross, and 3) follow me.
I can identify with some of what you say about Catholic school teaching, it was the 80’s for me.

Yes rising from the dead was not unique from what I’ve read about other faiths.

1,2 and 3 👍
 
Mystical Seeker said both genesis and revelation were taught as figurative to their children.

Yes maybe it wasn’t an actual fruit on a tree because it is said to be figurative, but if revelation is thought as figurative, then Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead.
Revelation has much symbolism in the language.

Like the book of Daniel, it’s dream literature, which can not be taken literally.

The Church nearly didn’t include the Book of Revelation in the New Testament Canon, for they feared that it would be misinterpreted by future generations. They were right, look at how many used it to say the end of the word was about to come.

Jim
 
Mystical Seeker said both genesis and revelation were taught as figurative to their children.

Yes maybe it wasn’t an actual fruit on a tree because it is said to be figurative, but if revelation is thought as figurative, then Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead.
Don’t take my comments on rev to be conclusive. The Genesis was much less ambiguous.

One friend took a course in reading Rev, taught at some weekend retreat or something, and told me about it. He said it was so fascinating and so different than what I might expect, that until he took the class he didn’t know anything. And he was a convert so you know he’s actually read it – whereas I haven’t even read it all. :o

So please take my comments about Gen as useful, and Rev for what they are worth to you. 🙂
 
I am now seeing that the bible is a book full of dreams and stories, which need not be taken literal. I’ve known that some references couldn’t really be taken as literal, but always thought that Jesus rising from the dead (literally) was to be taken as a literal account, maybe not?
 
I am now seeing that the bible is a book full of dreams and stories, which need not be taken literal. I’ve known that some references couldn’t really be taken as literal, but always thought that Jesus rising from the dead (literally) was to be taken as a literal account, maybe not?
I believe it sometimes, and now and then I’m not sure I do.

Since I cannot “force myself” to believe something, no amount of rehashing things or listening to anyone was going to fix it. The fact is, we have no actual physical evidence so we either believed He did, or not.

But why is it a problem? Surely some will say, “Jesus rising from the dead is necessary and required to become a Christian.” Well, maybe so, but it isn’t actually necessary to believe that to believe in and be transformed by Jesus’s teachings. Maybe for some theological reason it has to have happened that way, but when it boils down to “how do I accept Jesus’s teachings in order to be transformed and be born of the spirit,” then frankly there isn’t anything at all in the creed one MUST know for this to work.

I’m speaking entirely of becoming transformed and of new mind, like Jesus and Paul talk about greatly, and entering into the kingdom by becoming born of the spirit so that for example Rom 8 may apply. I make no claims about the theological aspects because IMO they amount to interesting head knowledge that others are experts at and that interest me but I defer to them on whether they are true.

Remember what God told us about Jesus. “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him.” And the last words recorded by Jesus’s mother, except for alleged apparations with which I have little regard for except to respect how much others have, were “listen to Him.” Notice neither God nor Mary told anybody to “be like our Son” or “believe all that is taught about Him,” nor even “know that our Son is the Messiah,” or for that matter, “our Son was of virgin birth.” No, they just said that God is well pleased, and we should listen to Him.

If you read what Jesus says, especially in John IMO, and some of the letters of Paul, it becomes clear that a transformation of heart and mind is what is required to enter the kingdom, not an intellectual training thereabout. In fact, we hear 1 Cor 13 at so many weddings, you’d think more of us would get the point that no amount of “knowledge” about the facts of our faith, and even all prophesies, and even all Good Works, amount to nothing without love.

Where do you get love? From the teachings of Jesus. Not from the teachings of the structure of the teachings. And from the Eucharist, except without the corresponding transformation in mind and heart, it may seem really hard to believe that too.

As a result of all this, it’s easier for me to believe now. But a few years ago when I was recovering from mental illness, I recognized something. If I try to find “love” by learning all sorts of facts and do’s and don’t, that builds pride and can set a stage for a fall by which the “training can kick in” and thus faith will be tested and purified as in a Dark Night if you’re called – because that is a mode of transformation I’ve become familiar with.

But FIRST, listen to Jesus. Because scholars seem more interested in the historicity of Jesus, than being conformed to what he actually says. If you don’t believe this, try starting a thread about “do not judge” and if there are more than a few posts on it, I guarantee somebody will come in an explain all the ways we MUST judge in the name of God. It’s always covered with satanic little cliches like “judge the sin not the sinner,” which is absurd but I won’t go into why unless further provoked. 😛

Likewise, start a thread on “loving enemies” and you will find some struggling with this but most have come to an equilibrium and become very technical about the word “hate” – they say well they don’t want them to go to hell, but … and then all the ways they cannot love.

So I see Catholics, “well versed” in faith, who refuse to even consider to imagine a world in which what Jesus says might be true. Because frankly that what we need to do, is to believe we are in the world, but cannot see it only because we are still of the world. Until something breaks that prideful construct (and so often it has to be some kind of tragedy that finally breaks it down if even that) Jesus words will never be of full benefit because they are hidden behind wrappers – and those wrappers have become disguised and stylized “bushel baskets.” So IMO we can actually use our imperfect (if not misdirected) knowledge of our faith to insulate ourselves from the actual teachings of Jesus, and I have seen this pattern repeat when Jesus’s words are actually placed against some of the common myths and considered with an open mind and heart.

Am I saying not to learn the faith? No. I am saying though, that knowing the structure and intellectual detail of our religious beliefs, and knowing the content of the teachings of Jesus, are two different things. They can supplement each other, or they can fight against each other in our hearts. Kind of like weeds and wheat. Listen to the wheat of Jesus, as well as consuming His body. But don’t isolate “good” and “bad” to a particular person, and which one based on our outward observations of their breaking the “law of sin and death” as St. Paul calls it. That’s what Jesus came to save us from, because under that system we all die. So if we still have that kind of judgment going on it is possible to be very devout and yet never taste of the kingdom until after physical death. And as far as I’m concerned, learning about the kingdom while alive is the best bet I have against whatever happens after I die. Therefore it is of no benefit to worry about hell after I die, unless I need to be motivated by fear to find love. Which is of course entirely possible. 😃
 
I am now seeing that the bible is a book full of dreams and stories, which need not be taken literal. I’ve known that some references couldn’t really be taken as literal, but always thought that Jesus rising from the dead (literally) was to be taken as a literal account, maybe not?
You’d be in error to read the Bible in this mindset.

The Bible has both allegorical stories, prayers, history and mythology.

You can not treat the entire Bible with the same mindset. To do so would be the equivalent of an alien landing on earth and taking a news paper back to his space ship. He’d read the cartoons with the same mindset as the editorials and news stories.

To interpret Scripture properly requires knowledge of the language in which the books were written, the culture, understanding of the theology of the time period, and knowing the history. You must have an understanding of the traditions and teachings of the Early Christian Church which are not included in the Bible itself, but in other writings and traditions that were handed down through history.

Its why the Church is the only authority to interpret Scripture and why she does not hold to “Solar Scripture,” or the Bible Alone, in understanding the Doctrines established by Jesus Christ, the Apostles and early Church Fathers.

Get educated by taking up a good Catholic Scripture Study course or commentary.

Jim
 
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