Adam born perfect?

[Seagull]

Just go on Ebay and buy " Lost Books of the Bible "
It makes for pretty good reading - 7 bucks or so -
but don’t put TOO MUCH trust in what’s written -
even though the writings - date - way back in time.

 

[Brucejlb]

These are books based on the so-called “lost books”, but how do we know they ever existed ?

 

[Agathon]

It’s not an assumption.

 

[AugustTherese]

LOL! @joeybaggz suggested that being made “in the image and likeness of God” meant being made ‘impeccable.’ That doesn’t make sense. After all, we’re all made in the image and likeness of God, and we’re all sinners.

In the truest definition of ‘in the image and likeness of God’, by our nature (viz. ‘likeness’), yes, that means being made impeccable, hence this language being used before the fall. God does not create souls that are ‘[not] very good’, rather we are stained at the moment of our conception by original sin inherited by our biological parents, while our nature and likeness of God remains. Once that stain of original sin is completely removed at the precise moment of Holy Baptism, our nature and likeness are fully restored to that exact same ‘likeness’ Adam and Eve were bestowed with before the fall; only difference is we are left with concupiscence, something they did not have before their fall into sin.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

Consider this. In Genesis 1 (0r 2) God says “let us make man in our own image and likeness.” If made in the image and likeness of God, how could Adam be anything but impeccable? After all, God is impeccable, right?

Shalom

I recognize you got this from the Catholic Answers site, but… I’m looking for a reference in the catechism (or elsewhere, in magisterial teaching) that says that Adam & Eve had infused knowledge. I’m not finding it. Got any citations or references for me?

Infused Knowledge and Impeccability are quite impossible for Adam and Eve. They did not possess the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”.

They would not have this knowledge until they partook of said tree.

Since if there was a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Genesis is the de facto first book of our Religion, then where did Evil Originate?

If this tree was created before the Great Rebellion of Angels, then there is obviously a quandary.

 

[Gorgias]

Infused Knowledge and Impeccability are quite impossible for Adam and Eve.

This is what I love about discussion forums. You really get a chance to poke and prod at definitions and come to a better understanding of them!

OK – how do we define ‘impeccability’? Is it an a priori or a posteriori assertion? In other words, do we look back on Mary’s life on earth (now completed) and say, “she did not sin, and therefore, she is impeccable”? Or, do we say “it is a truth, able to be known at the Annunciation (or maybe, even at the Immaculate Conception) that Mary is impeccable”?

Having asked that question, here’s another: by ‘impeccable’, do we mean “incapable of sin” (in the past, present, and future), or just “has not sinned”?

They did not possess the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”.

I see where you’re trying to go. However, I think I disagree with you. The point of the allegory of the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” isn’t that they didn’t have this knowledge – it’s that God is prohibiting them from appropriating it for themselves. They already knew what was good and what was evil – God told them! (That is, when He said “do this but not that”, God was giving them the knowledge of good and evil inasmuch as was applicable to them.)

They would not have this knowledge until they partook of said tree.

Not necessarily.

They were alive, weren’t they? And God prohibited them from eating from the Tree of Life, too, right?

(And, lest you say "yeah, but they weren’t immortal, keep in mind that the Church actually does say that, among the preternatural gifts they received, immortality was one of them. )

Since if there was a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Genesis is the de facto first book of our Religion, then where did Evil Originate?

With the first sin of a created being.

If this tree was created before the Great Rebellion of Angels, then there is obviously a quandary.

No, not so much. I think you’re placing too much stock in this ‘tree’…

 

[steve-b]

Greetings!

Was Adam created morally impeccable? Or is this an assumption or tradition that was passed down from the Early Church Fathers?

He was created without sin. That doesn’t make him impeccable, and obviously he showed us that with his actions

Corrgc69:

Is their scripture support that Adam and Eve were born “full of grace”?

Having no sin, in them, when God created them, means they are full of grace at that time. There is no guarantee in the story before they sin, that they will remain sinless or that the grace they had was in perfect tense… If they were perfectly graced, and therefore couldn’t sin, then in extension, there would be no original sin going back to them.

 

[joeybaggz]

I have no idea what you think you’ve proven.

That figures!..

 

[Reuben_J]

They did not possess the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”.

I see where you’re trying to go. However, I think I disagree with you. The point of the allegory of the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” isn’t that they didn’t have this knowledge – it’s that God is prohibiting them from appropriating it for themselves. They already knew what was good and what was evil – God told them! (That is, when He said “do this but not that”, God was giving them the knowledge of good and evil inasmuch as was applicable to them.)

The common understanding, AFAIK, is that they were innocent - they did not know, that is, until they ate the fruit. … realising that they were naked, something to be ashamed of, was a new discovery for them; and all the other knowledge of good and evil.

Maybe you would like to elaborate on the bolded part.

 

[joeybaggz]

ISAIAH 45/7
Lucifer fell w the sin of PRIDE.

Didn’t Lucifer make his own choice? The idea of God creating evil and sin is foreign to all the teaching I have ever heard. And it then does bring up the concept that man is not responsible for his evil, because it is inherently created in him???
I think what is askew here is the idea that the downstream effect of God’s creation can be laid at His feet, and not the free choice of man. Either man is created impeccable and his subsequent dalliance with sin and evil is his own fault, or it is God’s. Can’t have it both ways.

Edited: Reading this, I should have included Alice’s entire post. Sorry.

 

[tweedlealice]

Blessings
I quoted the scripture verse in Isaiah. The OT scares me w the unforgiving Father. But, like it or not. God said,” I created the dark & the light. I created the evil and the good.
If God is one God, He is the only power to make the positive and negative forces in the universe. Lucifer was the angel of light but PRIDE brought him down.
God didn’t create Chatty Cathy robots. He had to create the good and the evil, so we would have comparisons. We’d take the sun for granted if we never had clouds and darkness.
It is what it is.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice

 

[PJH_74]

Honestly, I can’t believe Genesis as literal, we know too much about science. Now I do see it as a reverent parable and I believe its point is about our free will and it’s pluses and minuses.

 

[Gorgias]

They did not possess the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”.

Reuben_J:

I see where you’re trying to go. However, I think I disagree with you. The point of the allegory of the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” isn’t that they didn’t have this knowledge – it’s that God is prohibiting them from appropriating it for themselves. They already knew what was good and what was evil – God told them! (That is, when He said “do this but not that”, God was giving them the knowledge of good and evil inasmuch as was applicable to them.)

The common understanding, AFAIK, is that they were innocent - they did not know, that is, until they ate the fruit. … realising that they were naked, something to be ashamed of, was a new discovery for them; and all the other knowledge of good and evil.

Maybe you would like to elaborate on the bolded part.

As far as the narrative tells us, they did know what was good and what was not. It was rather rudimentary knowledge, but it’s what they were told:

• be fruitful and multiply
• tend the garden and keep it
• you are free to eat of any trees in the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

That’s it! That was the extent of the moral commandments given them. (Of course, as Catholics, we would believe that the divine law is written in their hearts, wouldn’t we? So, they’d know that, as well.)

The whole point of the narrative, then, in the context of the name of the tree, is that they’re not supposed to “make gods of themselves” by appropriating the right to take that knowledge for themselves.

 

[joeybaggz]

Blessings
I quoted the scripture verse in Isaiah. The OT scares me w the unforgiving Father. But, like it or not. God said,” I created the dark & the light. I created the evil and the good.
If God is one God, He is the only power to make the positive and negative forces in the universe. Lucifer was the angel of light but PRIDE brought him down.
God didn’t create Chatty Cathy robots. He had to create the good and the evil, so we would have comparisons. We’d take the sun for granted if we never had clouds and darkness.
It is what it is.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice

It is an interesting passage. I read it slightly different though in context of the original question in the OP. It is my contention that God can only create perfection. Thus Adam was created impeccably. The evil that Adam committed was subsequent to his creation. Might the passage in Isaiah be read as God speaking to Isaiah and admitting that although God creates in a state of perfection, if that perfection subsequently falls from grace, is God, in retrospect, taking ownership of the fact that something he created, although perfect at its creation, became corrupt, and God is taking ownership of that corruption, even if it wasn’t God intent at the time of creation. (Whew, long sentence, my HS English teacher would give me detention for it.)
I create a perfect automobile. I give it to another and that person ruins the engine and the body by smashing it into a tree. Five years down the road, I take ownership of the fact I created an automobile that can be wrecked/damaged even though it was not at time I created it. Is it, "I made something perfect, another took my perfection and corrupted it, therefore it is fair to say I created something corrupt (even though it wasn’t my original intent. )
Because God created things that are now corrupt, is He taking ownership of that fact, even though it was not His original design.
God cannot and does not create evil.

 

[Reuben_J]

Ok then, they are not supposed to ‘make gods of themselves’.

Btw, the Laws to be written in their hearts was later, which is a New Covenant’s promise (Jer 31:33).

 

[Gorgias]

Btw, the Laws to be written in their hearts was later, which is a New Covenant’s promise (Jer 31:33).

No. This is a reference to the upcoming covenant. It’s a distinction between Mosaic Law and Jesus’ new law.

What I’m talking about is the natural moral law, which you can read up on in the Catechism beginning at #1954.

 

[tweedlealice]

Blessings
I don’t feel God is the author of our bad luck. He did create the Angels. If evil wasn’t created, where did Lucifer get the pride for the fall. The Bible has some allegories, some inaccurate Hx in it. Most is Holy Spirit inspired. If you read Job, He allows Satan some leeway on Job to test his faith.
I take that scripture verse accurately. He created light and Dark.if He didn’t create the negative, we wouldn’t know we were happy, unless He created SAD.
I’m Christs love
Tweedlealice

 

[Benadam]

Adam had the perfection Jesus had. Kinda. Jesus came to restore the preternatural powers that Adam lost. The relationship with God and Angels. The proper order of the natural powers. Impassibility, the knowledge proper to vocation, walking through walls, all of it. The only difference I think is…Jesus couldn’t sin Adam well…It doesn’t mean Adam couldn’t be more perfect. In fact that is what he was meant to do. Until he was assumed body and soul to next level.