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NM505StKate
Guest
So tell me what are the other theories of evolution so I may look them up.
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Bookcat
Guest
So many theories…too many to even start on a forum like this.So tell me what are the other theories of evolution so I may look them up.
Again though - very off topic.
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NM505StKate
Guest
I asked you what rejections and you responded with “exactly”. I am confused as to what you mean by exactly, I was looking for something that supported scientific rejections and you provided none.Well take another look.
Perhaps you read too quickly.
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grannymh
Guest
One of the things which have slid from memory is a rather very old interesting CAF discussion on Humanism. It was my impression that Humanism per se was not all bad. It seemed more incomplete.Why not? I know you aren’t comforted but I am. For me it makes life’s experiences much sweeter.
I do not want to go off topic with a Humanism question. The discussion that tickles my memory may have been totally biased and deserves its own thread. What I am wondering is – Could the reality of Eve and Adam be a quiet plus for all Humans?
I do not need an off-topic answer. This older than dirt granny is still driven by quiet curiosity.
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NM505StKate
Guest
Then PM me. I am curious because I haven’t heard of such things before.So many theories…too many to even start on a forum like this.
Again though - very off topic.
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NM505StKate
Guest
How would it be a quiet plus?Could the reality of Eve and Adam be a quiet plus for all Humans?
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Bookcat
Guest
The OP noted “I am not open to scientific rejections of the existence of God.”I asked you what rejections and you responded with “exactly”. I am confused as to what you mean by exactly, I was looking for something that supported scientific rejections and you provided none.
To which you replied: “Like what scientific rejections?”
To which I replied (with a rye turning of the meaning a bit):
Exactly.
There can be no such rejections.
Such would be outside of the scope of the empirical sciences.
Outside their area and competence.
– meaning there can be on such rejections.
Such is not possible within their field.
(but again for you and for me and for the others…all this is off topic)
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grannymh
Guest
Quiet, because I would not think that using Scripture properly would be popular.How would it be a quiet plus?
In my experience, there is a lot of human curiosity…but not all of it is in the public eye. To me, a humanist could find her favorite spot in nature, even if it is a perfect tree on a noisy street, and ponder what benefit to humanity was contributed by Adam. His uniqueness is so apparent (the shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27) that no one will confuse him, or his descendants, with highly sentient creatures. No one can deny that the human person per se is worthy of profound respect. Even when Adam committed the Original Sin, his human nature did not disappear. God still loved him. John 3: 16-17.
While the author of the first three tempting chapters of Genesis was not living at the time of Adam, the traditions he worked with are amazing because of what they told about Adam’s life and decisions. I bet I could find Adam leaning to the skeptic side. Genesis 3: 6. I did look up skeptic in the dictionary. It is my my personal opinion, that proper questioning can lead to deep truths.
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NM505StKate
Guest
Strong disagree. Mostly because the character of Adam isn’t historical. You are putting a huge amount of value on a character that, if the myth was remotely true, sentenced an entire species to suffering. Really think on this. If you had the power to create a creature out of dust and give it life exactly how naïve would that creature be? There was no instruction given and since the creature doesn’t know right from wrong nor really anything unless taught can you fault it for not obeying a command?Quiet, because I would not think that using Scripture properly would be popular.
In my experience, there is a lot of human curiosity…but not all of it is in the public eye. To me, a humanist could find her favorite spot in nature, even if it is a perfect tree on a noisy street, and ponder what benefit to humanity was contributed by Adam. His uniqueness is so apparent (the shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27) that no one will confuse him, or his descendants, with highly sentient creatures. No one can deny that the human person per se is worthy of profound respect. Even when Adam committed the Original Sin, his human nature did not disappear. God still loved him. John 3: 16-17.
While the author of the first three tempting chapters of Genesis was not living at the time of Adam, the traditions he worked with are amazing because of what they told about Adam’s life and decisions. I bet I could find Adam leaning to the skeptic side. Genesis 3: 6. I did look up skeptic in the dictionary. It is my my personal opinion, that proper questioning can lead to deep truths.
The author was writing down a tale handed down orally. Adam is just a name given to the protagonist to help the reader/audience identify with. There wasn’t any Adam that humans descended from, we know this because through genetics and from the theory of evolution we can find a common ancestor and we can see how that ancestor came about from other beings. Go back far enough and we have a strong idea of us coming out of the primordial ooze.
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goout
Guest
And so you would force poor Adam to do what is good for him, for the good of the rest of us. Sounds like Stalin’s godless paradise to me.Strong disagree. Mostly because the character of Adam isn’t historical. You are putting a huge amount of value on a character that, if the myth was remotely true, sentenced an entire species to suffering. Really think on this. If you had the power to create a creature out of dust and give it life exactly how naïve would that creature be? There was no instruction given and since the creature doesn’t know right from wrong nor really anything unless taught can you fault it for not obeying a command?
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Bookcat
Guest
Not here commenting on the OP’s posts - have not been reading them of late.
But I will comment on this:
But I will comment on this:
Yes he was (and is).Mostly because the character of Adam isn’t historical.
Not a character. A person.You are putting a huge amount of value on a character
Hum …me thinks you have not read about the creation of Adam and Eve and the fall. At least not recently.There was no instruction given
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NM505StKate
Guest
What would have been good for Adam? LOL are you saying you wouldn’t want to have a paradise where you are on constant presence of god and with no worry about death?And so you would force poor Adam to do what is good for him, for the good of the rest of us. Sounds like Stalin’s godless paradise to me.
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edwest2
Guest
Wow. The Church teaches there was an Adam and an Eve, and they were given preternatural gifts by God.Strong disagree. Mostly because the character of Adam isn’t historical. You are putting a huge amount of value on a character that, if the myth was remotely true, sentenced an entire species to suffering. Really think on this. If you had the power to create a creature out of dust and give it life exactly how naïve would that creature be? There was no instruction given and since the creature doesn’t know right from wrong nor really anything unless taught can you fault it for not obeying a command?
The author was writing down a tale handed down orally. Adam is just a name given to the protagonist to help the reader/audience identify with. There wasn’t any Adam that humans descended from, we know this because through genetics and from the theory of evolution we can find a common ancestor and we can see how that ancestor came about from other beings. Go back far enough and we have a strong idea of us coming out of the primordial ooze.
Code:
impassibility (freedom from pain)
immortality (freedom from death)
integrity (freedom from concupiscence, or disordered
desires)
infused knowledge (freedom from ignorance in matters
essential for happiness)Romans 3:15
New International Version
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned–
New Living Translation
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
English Standard Version
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
And Jesus Christ had to become flesh and die as a sacrifice for all because of Original Sin. But he also established His Church, and it exists till this day.
Ed
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goout
Guest
Ah, you are changing the subject a little.What would have been good for Adam? LOL are you saying you wouldn’t want to have a paradise where you are on constant presence of god and with no worry about death?
Your assertion was that God must be naive for allowing Adam to reject him and so enter into suffering, death, sin.
To answer you original question, yes I would like to have paradise. You wouldn’t?Originally Posted by NM505StKate View Post
…You are putting a huge amount of value on a character that, if the myth was remotely true, sentenced an entire species to suffering. Really think on this. If you had the power to create a creature out of dust and give it life exactly how naïve would that creature be? There was no instruction given and since the creature doesn’t know right from wrong nor really anything unless taught can you fault it for not obeying a command?
The issue is, you believe in force, I do not. Atheism always resorts to coercion to accomplish good because it has no other objective appeal. (popular opinion, perceived common good, etc…)
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NM505StKate
Guest
Oh he was? Mayhaps you can provide me with evidence that has been found confirming such a person existed. Looking at some web pages I can determine that humans originated out of East Africa not the Middle East. If we look at the rivers presented in Genesis most of them are around the Syria Iraq area, no where close to East Africa. It could be speculated we came from Egypt as that is a very fertile area but that is just speculation on my end.Not here commenting on the OP’s posts - have not been reading them of late.
But I will comment on this:
Yes he was (and is).
Not a character. A person.
Hum …me thinks you have not read about the creation of Adam and Eve and the fall. At least not recently.
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goout
Guest
Which straw man is this?Oh he was? Mayhaps you can provide me with evidence that has been found confirming such a person existed. Looking at some web pages I can determine that humans originated out of East Africa not the Middle East. If we look at the rivers presented in Genesis most of them are around the Syria Iraq area, no where close to East Africa. It could be speculated we came from Egypt as that is a very fertile area but that is just speculation on my end.
Quote the bible please, where it claims scientific accuracy.
Quote the Church also, where the Church claims the Bible is a science book or literalist history book.
We’ll wait…
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NM505StKate
Guest
Um I don’t believe in force. No idea where you got that from. No Yahweh isn’t “naïve” in any way. Being called all knowing removes any way of being naïve. Yahweh knew perfectly well that Adam would fall and let it happen. The fall had to have been planned out. Mayhaps Yahweh is a sadistic being that enjoys seeing suffering? Mayhaps it was a tribal deity of the people that slowly changed over time to fit into the world?Ah, you are changing the subject a little.
Your assertion was that God must be naive for allowing Adam to reject him and so enter into suffering, death, sin.
To answer you original question, yes I would like to have paradise. You wouldn’t?
The issue is, you believe in force, I do not. Atheism always resorts to coercion to accomplish good because it has no other objective appeal. (popular opinion, perceived common good, etc…)
Aside: Someone asked me why I use Yahweh, this is why. I firmly think he was a tribal war/fire god. Now that is something I wish to explore more. How did Yahweh fit into the Babylonian pantheon and what other roles did he take.
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goout
Guest
Yea, you do believe in force. You can’t conceive of a loving God who allows free will choices and consequences.Um I don’t believe in force. No idea where you got that from. No Yahweh isn’t “naïve” in any way. Being called all knowing removes any way of being naïve. Yahweh knew perfectly well that Adam would fall and let it happen. The fall had to have been planned out. Mayhaps Yahweh is a sadistic being that enjoys seeing suffering? Mayhaps it was a tribal deity of the people that slowly changed over time to fit into the world?
Aside: Someone asked me why I use Yahweh, this is why. I firmly think he was a tribal war/fire god. Now that is something I wish to explore more. How did Yahweh fit into the Babylonian pantheon and what other roles did he take.
So, yea, you believe in force as the source of morality rather than freedom.
And you did call God naive, directly.
So, I dunno where you are.
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NM505StKate
Guest
Oh I am not saying it is scientific accurate but seeing that the author of Genesis two provided the names of rivers so to help give a rough location of where this paradise is we can find some of the rivers on a map.Which straw man is this?
Quote the bible please, where it claims scientific accuracy.
Quote the Church also, where the Church claims the Bible is a science book or literalist history book.
We’ll wait…
skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/2.html
From 2:11 to 2:14 are the name of the rivers. Looking on Google maps we can see where the rivers are. From there anyone curious could go looking for some kind of evidence of people living there.
You are claiming Adam and Eve existed correct? Please provide evidence to show they did. It is far more likely we came from a small group of beings in East Africa than two beings.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans#/media/File:Map-of-human-migrations.jpg
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes.Oh he was? .
How do I know such a person existed (and exists)?
From first hand source. (rather present to the events…and knows him personally…)
God.
*
Divine Revelation.*
I understand you do not accept such - but we are discussing what in this forum?
Sacred Scripture.
Divine Revelation.
Theology.
The Catholic Faith.
Not something else.
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