Adam & Eve's Temptation

[stpurl]

Surely you aren’t preaching dualism here? Or that the God of the Old Testament is not the same God of the New Testament? Forgive me, your style is very poetic and imaginative but there are so many comparisons that get mixed with the questions that it can be a little hard to determine exactly what you said here.

 

[laylow]

The reality is, there is no answer here. If the paradise was so perfect, their knowledge would have been perfect, and therefore, would not seek to know more, since they would know everything there is to know. If there is a possibility to seek more, then where does this possibility go in heaven? If it is no longer an option, then simply put the first version of paradise was lacking something that the second version won’t.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks everybody for your answers. I’m afraid I still haven’t got the answer I was seeking. Everyone keeps shouting “free will”. Yes I got that part. Let me phrase my question another way. If they were created good, why didn’t the very idea of rebellion against God repulse them, period?

The basic ingredients for the fall, most simply, is the combination of free will with a finite, created rational being. In other words, God gave a huge amount of responsibility to creatures, who, while awesome in their own right, were nonetheless not God, and therefore lacking or inferior in terms of possessing His perfect wisdom. They were given all they needed, including knowledge, to be capable of refraining from sin and yet they, having control over their own acts, still retained the possibility of making the wrong choice. Simply by virtue of not being God, they were inherently inferior, and this “flaw” could manifest itself in their choices, the most fundamental wrong choice being to fail to recognize God as God; all other sin flows from that first one. Another way to state all this is to say that God cannot create another God. And no matter how good He made us, He knows that our perfection, our justice, is all the greater the more we choose and participate in it.

And so God’s purpose is to draw us into willing alignment with His perfect, godly will, without force or coercion. His ultimate purpose, in fact, is to “divinize” man. But man, via Adam, foolishly wanted to be “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”, as the catechism teaches. What Adam ended up with by his act of disobedience was simply estrangement from God, with all that entails, even as he may’ve thought that this autonomy meant he was superior to his previous, subjugated, state. He wasn’t though; he had taken a major fall.

Our whole purpose here on earth is to come to gain the wisdom, with the help of time, experience, revelation, and grace, to come to see the error of Adam’s choice, to come to know just how much we need God, ‘Apart from whom we can do nothing’ (John 15:5). This is the basis of the New Covenant. To the extent that we find our way back to God and cooperate and commune with Him, as is the right and proper order of things for man, He will do a work in us, of transforming us into His own image.

 

[rose321]

Surely you aren’t preaching dualism here? Or that the God of the Old Testament is not the same God of the New Testament? Forgive me, your style is very poetic and imaginative but there are so many comparisons that get mixed with the questions that it can be a little hard to determine exactly what you said here.

Respectfully opinion only in pondering, questioning, examining

When Jesus walked the earth there was no New Testament, it did not exist for decades later is this not true? So Jesus being a Jew, born raised by Jewish parents fully observed, obeyed, lived by fully observing all Jewish yearly Feast etc, preached on, heavily quotes from, reads from His Holy Scriptures the OT?
Books of the Prophets, the Torah and Our Heavenly Father being proactive >>>being the author of Scripture fully knew Jeremiah 8:8?

Jesus makes it clear, My Kingdom is not of this world?

There is the True God and there is the false god and the false god is found >>>>>>>>>>>all throughout the whole bible>>>>>>>>>> since the very beginning of time, right in the Garden. he is present, is this not true?

Father of Truth vs father of lies

There is always the opposite of all things in life, is this not true?
Truth vs lies?
Love vs hate?
Good vs Evil?
Light vs darkness?
True God vs False god?
Hot vs Cold?
Wet vs dry?
Straight vs crooked?
Wide vs narrow?
Sweet vs bitter?
Very unlimited, never ending, list of opposites >>>reality, fact both exist, do they not?

There is the True God, Creator of all, Father of Truth>>what is his character image?
>>>>vs>>>
The false god, creator of destruction, chaos, father of Lies, what is his character image?

Test all Spirits and you will know them by their fruits, is this not written?

Jesus came also to do what?
Expose such, Jesus>>> identifies who they are>>>> as being the children of their father of lies? Who added subtracted from his word? For self interest only?

Jesus calls him My Father? Taught Prayer >Our Father?

In other sources many sources books written on eve, is that >>> Our Heavenly Father his name was mentioned 7,500 times in OT and removed replaced with God or Lord, is this true, why?

Our Heavenly Father, faithful who >>knew Him>>> his Prophets, John Baptist, Jesus, Apostles, his disciples taught>>>>>>>>>>> let your hears hear Jesus preaching and teaching to his listening audience>>>>stressing to us, we have to >>>>>know >>first>>> the character images of Both? >>>>

Seek to >>>know>>>>the character image of >>>The Father of Truth > and

seek to know>>>>>>> the character image of the>>>>>> father of

lies>>>Jesus preaches, teaches heavily on this and exposes such>>>>>>for

all to know>>>>>>> who is speaking when>>>>>>so we will >>>>

know>>>be able to identify>>>like Jesus did, His Apostles etc, >>>those who

are not of the Father of Truth, but are of the father of lies, would this be true?

Written? >>> Let us create them in our image?

Do not add or subtract from my word, Jeremiah 8:8?

Right or wrong opinion only respectfully Peace pondering on

 

[rose321]

The reality is, there is no answer here. If the paradise was so perfect, their knowledge would have been perfect, and therefore, would not seek to know more, since they would know everything there is to know.

Respectfully toward there maybe is a reality answer? Opinion in pondering

Are we to establish paradise on earth, within this world?

as written/>>, As it is in heaven so shall it be below?
Found in 1 Kings 7:21 as above so below and>>

Jesus tells us also My Father has many mansions, I will go and prepare a place for you> John 14:2, 3

Our Heavenly Father will is done in heaven, > mentioned by satan himself in Job 1:6:12

But not yet fully established on earth?
Eph 6:6
Col 4:12
1 Peter 4:2
And lets not forget the Lords Prayer?

Luke 11:2-4 Jesus teaches the Lords Prayer begins with Our Father and we say>>Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven>>

But one day His will, will be done on earth as it is above, so shall it be below?>.>>.

But people still rebel and fail yet to >.know> days are coming and I Will…this is a Covenant promise, a prophecy of >Jeremiah 31:31-34 >>>I will teach you and all will >>know>>me?
Rev 21:3-22-25

Jesus preaching?
I am not of this world
My kingdom is not of this world
I am the first spark in darkness…is this not written>>

Found being repeated again>> Jesus I am not of this world within>
John 18:36>> If my kingdom was of this world
1 John 4:5
2 John 15:19>> If you belonged to the world it would love its own…
John 8:12-24>> you were below I am from above
1 John 4:5
John 17:14-16>> I have given them your word and the world has …

Was Jesus expecting billions of sparks of light to be established and follow him and we were all given the responsibility, called out >>>> for all to be partakers, to share>>>> in the responsibility to establish and continue to build>>> >>Paradise on earth?>> written>>>As it is above so shall it be below?

So if Jesus tells us in what is written, that My Kingdom is not of this world, then who’s Kingdom is this and who has such power or authority over it? Jesus was offered all when tempted>>

attain all the riches of this world?
would be a King over all Nations?
All Nations would bow to him?
He would be worshiped as a ?
But did Jesus say no thanks to the one tempting him ?

One cannot give or offer, what does not belong to them right?
Thou shall not lie?
Thou shall not steal?

Peace

 

[joeybaggz]

I’m curious…

Adam and Eve were created from God, hence they were very good. If they were very good, why on earth were they tempted by the fruit of the tree of knowledge in the first place? Why won’t they repulsed by the idea of disobeying God?

Haven’t read all the posts, but it might be considered that they didn’t so much think of disobeying God, as desiring Satan’s suggestion that they would be like God. Rather tempting thought. I don’t think they so much thought to themselves that “yea, we are going to disobey you” as they were blinded by the false promise of divinity themselves. (And the question, if that is true, did Adam and Eve commit a venial sin?? - just for fun)

 

[ShowersofRoses]

Sheesh. Let me make this as simple as possible in the form of a yes or no question. Could God have created Adam and Eve with free will but such that they would not have sinned; just like Mary?

Adam, Eve, and Mary were all created the same, without original sin. But Mary CHOSE every moment of her life after she was born to not sin. She was full of God’s graces and did not have the tendency to sin that we have. It’s a tricky point, but God did not force her to always be sinless. She perfectly cooperated with God in redeeming the world by being the perfect vessel for God to use to allow Jesus to be born.

Adam and Eve also did not have that tendency but they fell by eating the fruit, just like we fall every day. Why did they also not cooperate with God and reject sin? That is a big question, and I’m sure many doctors of the church, like Thomas Aquinas, have answered it. Of course, they were alone, without a knowledge of the evils of human history and the consequences of sin, probably being continually harassed and tempted by Satan. I’m hesitant to “throw stones” at them or blame them too much for the evils in this world when I’m confronted by my own sin daily.

 

[stpurl]

Respectfully, you are incorrect. The New Testament may not have existed in written form but Jesus Himself is the Logos, “the Word”. His teaching fulfilled the Old Testament and the Prophecies.

While many of the pagan groups around the Israalites worshiped ‘false gods’, it does not mean those gods were ‘real’. I mean, do you believe there was a real Thor who lived in Valhalla and who is going to battle at the end of the world? Do you believe that Titans existed (the Grandfather of Zeus, a Titan, was worshiped by the early Romans and his ‘time’ considered a golden age). Do you believe he existed? How about satyrs, unicorns, etc?

There is no ‘false god’ who is 'opposed to God" in the OT. The closest would be Baal in SOME of the books who is presented as being offered by certain pagan groups as an alternative to the God of the Israelites, but there is no ‘True God/False God’ dualism such as in Ahura Madzu and Ahriman. Even Satan or Lucifer is not a GOD but a fallen Angel; a created Being.

I think it would be a good idea for you to read the catechism of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic encyclopedia, on the nature of God.

There is no 'God/opposite God. Not Catholic teaching, never taught, as it is not true.

God IS.

 

[rose321]

Adam and Eve were created from God, hence they were very good. If they were very good, why on earth were they tempted by the fruit of the tree of knowledge in the first place? Why won’t they repulsed by the idea of disobeying God?

Respectfully opinion only pondering on.
Love does not tempt>>failing to >>know>> Him?
Love forces not for what is love if one is forced to love, telling us you take that kind of Love I do not accept, is this not written?

All are given >>Free Will<<, thus all have the Freedom, the right as Human Beings>>>> to question, to examine to choose, let your yes be yes and your no be no, is this not written also?

James 1:13-14 No one, when tempted, should say, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.

James 25 -26 But those who looked into the perfect law, the law of liberty and persevere, being not hearers who forget but doers who act, they will be blessed in their doing.

Adam and Eve had free will to choose, it was their own choice to choose, they were not forced by God, but he spoke the Truth the other told a lie?

I believe our Heavenly Father will never take our Free Will away from us, for he also has Free Will -Will and Desire> create what is good or create what is not good, speak the truth or tell a lie, save or destroy etc.

For if our Heavenly Father takes away our>>> Free Will >>he has given us>>> it would then make our>>>> Heavenly Father>>>>> fully responsible and accountable>>> for the choices >>we make right or wrong, would this be true?

Our Heavenly Father does not want us to >>>obey >>him for the sake of obeying, but wants us to >>experience and >>know>>right from wrong, the choices have always been ours to make>>>>>>>>>> not our Heavenly Father is responsible, but >>>we >>are fully responsible, example Adam and Eve>>> for us to learn from, come to>>> know>>>> that our Free Will choices we make>>>>>>> we will also >>>reap>>what we have sow>>>would this be true?

Like Adam and Eve is it not written>>>> All have fallen short of the glory, could not find one earth?

Why then have all human beings on earth>> done the same thing as Adam and Eve?

Maybe Our heavenly Father wants us to >>know>>you can do great things also, you can accomplish great things, our Heavenly Father does not want to take away, such great pleasure, from us, does he?

Written, does Jesus not tell us, You too can do great things?

But the choices are fully ours to make, but does not leave us orphans, like any Loving Father, he gives us His Royal Commandment Laws to teach us to know>>right from wrong>>choices are ours thou

And to love your neighbor as you love your self, teaching instructions how to do so>>Sermon on the Mount.

Freely choose to live by them, or do not live by them choices are freely ours to make?

Our Heavenly Father> as written, >I choose what I Will and he allow’s us to share in, to experience for ourselves, that you also can do the same?

I have given you Free Will and the choice’s have always been ours to make?

Peace

 

[Benadam]

Which God or god are you talking about?

Rose, KevinK is asking why God didn’t make a different pair of Adam and Eve’s when He foresaw that Adam and Eve would sin. He wants to know why didn’t God just foresee a number of Adam and Eve’s and pick the pair that would not sin. My answer for that is in the form of 'what kind of God that would be" not God as we Know Him. You thought that I was describing Our God but I wasn’t.

 

[MonteRCMS]

God gave us free will.

Very few of his other creatures or creations have free will.

 

[rose321]

Rose, KevinK is asking why God didn’t make a different pair of Adam and Eve’s when He foresaw that Adam and Eve would sin. He wants to know why didn’t God just foresee a number of Adam and Eve’s and pick the pair that would not sin. My answer for that is in the form of 'what kind of God that would be" not God as we Know Him. You thought that I was describing Our God but I wasn’t.

Respectfully toward. Thanks first Benadam for kind reply !

And agree with you Benadam, What kind of God would that be? Your correct also I thought you were describing our God, sorry should of read over. Thank you kindly for correcting me and clearing that up!! Peace

 

[Shakuhachi]

If it is free why do we not always choose what is best for us, what is right for us?

 

[Nita]

Why didn’t the thought of rebellion repulse them?!!

It probably did. But, obviously, the attraction of “becoming like God” ended up overpowering the repulsion of rebelling.

 

[PrisonerOfChrist]

Because God gave them free will. He didn’t want to make them robot-like. Being tempted in itself is not sinful or bad. Our Lord was tempted in the desert by Satan. Being good, God gave then intelligence, gave them choice, even if that choice involved them possibly hurting Him.

Jesus could not be tempted because it was impossible for him to sin. He enjoyed the beatific vision, thus could not sin.

 

[PrisonerOfChrist]

I’m curious…

Adam and Eve were created from God, hence they were very good. If they were very good, why on earth were they tempted by the fruit of the tree of knowledge in the first place? Why won’t they repulsed by the idea of disobeying God?

Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness - CCC 397

 

[stpurl]

One can be tempted and not sin. Temptation is not a sin. Plus the ‘enjoyed the beatific vision’ makes no sense. Jesus did not ‘enjoy the beatific Vision, He IS the beatific vision’.

 

[Jessica01]

I know He couldn’t sin, but he was still tempted in the desert. Being tempted is not a sin. The devil tempted Him because he believed he could make Our Lord fall, this doesn’t mean Our Lord could have sinned. I know He couldn’t have done it because He is God even if He was man. And Jesus is God so He would in essence BE the Beatific vision.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

Jesus was tempted just as we are, so He can sympathize and comfort us through our temptations and provide a way for us to resist them. He is our High Priest who experienced suffering as the Lamb, but did not sin. Being tempted is not a sin; giving in to the temptation is the sin. Satan can stand there and offer us all the delights of the world, but we don’t sin unless we look and desire what is being offered.

"17 Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful priest before God, that he might be a propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that, wherein he himself hath suffered and been tempted, he is able to succour them also that are tempted."
Hebrews 2:17-18 DRC1752

 

[PrisonerOfChrist]

His human nature on it’s own meant nothing unless it were united to his divine nature and thus enjoyed the beatific vision.

Google translation of temptation: the desire to do something, especially something wrong or unwise.

Jesus had no desire to sin and so cannot be tempted.