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simpleas
Guest
I meant that the church holds the grace through the sacraments from Christ, like baptism that removes O.S from a person because they are born of a fallen nature, because of what the first man choose to do.
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simpleas
Guest
Original sin being transmitted.
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grannymh
Guest
What I am looking for are simple declarative sentences which state a truth taught by the Catholic Church. One can have one or two or three declarative truths.
Here is another way to find a Catholic truth. Please, look at this sentence from post 355.
“God being the giver of our souls makes more sense to me, because it seems more spiritual and more apart of God, but then the soul given by God at the time of our conception would be free from O.S, because Adam sinned with his own soul and can not pass this on to anyone.”
Please, compare the above sentence with this reply in post 357.
“Original sin being transmitted.”
Which sentence contains a Catholic truth about Original Sin?
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Aloysium
Guest
I have no idea what this means to you, but here goes in the dark.
Even if you take this approach, you will still have to sort out how it is that each human being is created as a separate person. Once you get a sense of this mystery, it will be clearer how sin is transmitted.
How about:
We are all implicated in the original sin, being one humanity. Consider Adam as being both one person and all mankind.
If you gaze deep into yourself, although you are not the first person who walked on earth, you are Adam in your humanity and sinfulness, as you will become Christ-like, growing in the Way, the one true vine.
You will have to sort this out for yourself.
My sense is that you are getting bogged down because not focussing on your relationship with Jesus, but rather trying to figure it out intellectually.
I don’t think one can do it outside a giving over of oneself to Him. At that point you will understand what is important for you because you are getting to know God.
Words really fall short; I can see this meaning different things to different people, even the same person.
Are you actually asking a “why” question? FHansen answers that above:
In this world we learn who we are as children of God, totally dependent on Him; we do so as we come to love and trust Him.
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fhansen
Guest
Why couldn’t God deprive or withhold from man-from Adam’s descendants-sanctifying grace due to Adam’s sin?
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simpleas
Guest
Thanks for your thoughts, I won’t comment because the thread would become about me rather than the topic of Adam.
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simpleas
Guest
When I read how the O.S is transmitted from the words of the CCC, I can understand it on the surface so to speak, not the depth.
It say’s :
St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . the first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
I understand this in a way, but Adam being a human being (body and soul) becomes a fallen nature, he passes this fallen nature onto us, yet only can God give us our souls at the time of our conception, Adam can not, so I don’t see how we inherit Adams fallen nature, because the body and soul are one nature, God can not give us a soul that is fallen.
I have noticed a few non catholic sites that explain their interpretation of how our natures are fallen, only bodily from Adam, and humans are born spiritually dead, but they do not believe a soul is alive in the womb. My point for this is that although the CCC has many words about the soul and transmission of O.S etc, it doesn’t explain it, merely expresses it to be a mystery.
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grannymh
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I was hoping you would honor my request and after that answer my question. (post 358) Too late now.
I have another request and question. Please re-look at this comment from post 362.
“I understand this in a way, but Adam being a human being (body and soul) becomes a fallen nature, he passes this fallen nature onto us, yet only can God give us our souls at the time of our conception, Adam can not, so I don’t see how we inherit Adams fallen nature, because the body and soul are one nature, God can not give us a soul that is fallen.”
Where did the idea that a soul is fallen come from?
My apology, I am not familiar with the term fallen applied to a specific soul and its source. I am familiar with the Catholic terminology that a human being contracts the State of Original Sin at conception. In addition, I have a hard time imagining that God is limited when it comes to giving us a soul. It is precisely the fact that God is not limited at the time of conception which leads to the truth that all humans descended from one set of first parents.
Please, one more observation. When I re-read the below sentence from post 362, in my humble opinion, it looks like O.S. transmission is a distraction from the truth of human nature per se…as if the many words about our spiritual soul are somewhat casual. We may not be able to fully understand every nitty-gritty of propagation transmittal (CCC 404-405) but in the Catholic Church that is not a deal breaker.
Would it be possible for you to kindly expand your point so that this poor, older than dirt, brain can comprehend it properly?
“My point for this is that although the CCC has many words about the soul and transmission of O.S etc, it doesn’t explain it, merely expresses it to be a mystery.”
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simpleas
Guest
It’s never too late to answer a question imo, what I wrote above I thought would suggest that I didn’t need to answer, my fault.
Original sin being transmitted.
I will reply to the rest of your post later today and try answering your question’s.
Thanks.
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simpleas
Guest
Not sure, God could do and can do whatever he wishes, we know he knew all that was to happen but still went ahead with his creation, so that leads me to think we are what we are regardless of O.S. Can I ask why you are asking this?
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grannymh
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Gentle Readers,
There are times when we need to proceed with caution; for example, when we try to bring God down to our human understanding. Because our species is peerless, we sometimes have the idea that being peerless on planet earth means that we are supposed to know every nitty-gritty thing about God’s interactions with humankind. In a sense, we want to have the same knowledge of the world that God has.
We put aside the basic truth that we, as creatures, can only live in friendship with God if we choose to live in free submission to God. Somehow, it is easy for us to miss the basic truth of CCC 1730.
**1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Chapter 14 in the Gospel of John contains the promise of the Holy Spirit Who will guide the Catholic Church. Thus, we have a visible institution on planet earth which is dedicated to the preservation of Divine Revelation. With the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church teaches that all humankind is in Adam “as one body of one man.” Therefore, descendants of Adam will receive their human nature from Adam. Adam’s original human nature was in the State of Holiness, aka friendship with God. The sin of disobedience to God resulted in the loss of the State of Original Holiness. Therefore, the human nature transmitted by propagation was deprived of Original Holiness and Justice. Humans contract the State of Deprivation otherwise known as the State of Original Sin. The result of Original Sin is the State of Deprivation. However, we simply call the State in which we are born as the State of Original Sin. This is Divine Revelation.
The danger in our extremely intelligent century is the claim that if one cannot explain Divine Revelation in human terminology, then Divine Revelation is useless …
Satan’s temptation is not exactly the offer of knowledge. It is the temptation to throw out Divine Revelation because humans lack infinite knowledge. We see in Satan’s temptation the “good” of having knowledge equal to God. This feeds intellective pride and shows us as superior beings. We would enjoy this “wisdom” presented by Satan. And so we do as Satan suggests. We throw out the Divine Revelation which is hard to understand. Like Adam, we let our trust in God die in our heart.
There are times when we need to proceed with caution; for example, when we try to bring God down to our human understanding. Because our species is peerless, we sometimes have the idea that being peerless on planet earth means that we are supposed to know every nitty-gritty thing about God’s interactions with humankind. In a sense, we want to have the same knowledge of the world that God has.
We put aside the basic truth that we, as creatures, can only live in friendship with God if we choose to live in free submission to God. Somehow, it is easy for us to miss the basic truth of CCC 1730.
**1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
The basic truth of a rational being is not that we are suppose to know what God knows. The truth of being a rational being is that we can seek the important knowledge which leads to freely attaining joy eternal in the presence of God, aka the Beatific Vision. It is perfectly o.k. for a creature to seek knowledge. But it is not o.k. for a creature to demand equal knowledge with God. There is an important difference between seeking and demanding.
Chapter 14 in the Gospel of John contains the promise of the Holy Spirit Who will guide the Catholic Church. Thus, we have a visible institution on planet earth which is dedicated to the preservation of Divine Revelation. With the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church teaches that all humankind is in Adam “as one body of one man.” Therefore, descendants of Adam will receive their human nature from Adam. Adam’s original human nature was in the State of Holiness, aka friendship with God. The sin of disobedience to God resulted in the loss of the State of Original Holiness. Therefore, the human nature transmitted by propagation was deprived of Original Holiness and Justice. Humans contract the State of Deprivation otherwise known as the State of Original Sin. The result of Original Sin is the State of Deprivation. However, we simply call the State in which we are born as the State of Original Sin. This is Divine Revelation.
The danger in our extremely intelligent century is the claim that if one cannot explain Divine Revelation in human terminology, then Divine Revelation is useless …
Satan’s temptation is not exactly the offer of knowledge. It is the temptation to throw out Divine Revelation because humans lack infinite knowledge. We see in Satan’s temptation the “good” of having knowledge equal to God. This feeds intellective pride and shows us as superior beings. We would enjoy this “wisdom” presented by Satan. And so we do as Satan suggests. We throw out the Divine Revelation which is hard to understand. Like Adam, we let our trust in God die in our heart.
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fhansen
Guest
Well, if we’re looking for the means or mechanism by which OS is transmitted, and we recognize that God is in and behind every act of His creation at every moment, then we can at least make a general statement, 'As a result of Adam’s sin, God witholds sanctifying grace and other gifts from every human being from the moment He first brings them into existence".
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cfauster
Guest
This raises the question of God’s foreknowledge of, in this case, just how badly humans would sin.
Pope Francis quoted from Genesis at a Holocaust memorial earlier this year. It seems that, like the mystery of how original sin is transmitted, it’s also a mystery as to whether God knew exactly how bad Adam’s descendants would sin:
news.va/en/news/pope-francis-honors-victims-of-holocaust-at-yad-va
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grannymh
Guest
Wow !!!
That link is powerful emotion, figuratively poured forth in compelling poetry. This piece is so enlarged by the depth of human despair at the sight of horror that we find ourselves on our knees.
“Here we are, Lord, shamed by what man,
created in your own image and likeness,
was capable of doing.
Remember us in your mercy.”
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cfauster
Guest
I feel the same way. Very moving, very profound, and so true.
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Aloysium
Guest
I referenced your post, which puts our relationship with God and His plan for us into proper perspective, on another thread:
Thx
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simpleas
Guest
Hi,
I didn’t say God gives us a fallen soul, I said God couldn’t give us a fallen soul. The CCC states that humans do not produce the soul only the body. Our God “infuses” our soul at the time of conception.
This is a spiritual happening, that only God does, as well as maintaining the human person after birth. No human can produce a soul.
The CCC says by “Propagation” we inherit O.S, propagate means reproduce…How? If God is the only one who gives us our soul, how can it be reproduced. The soul isn’t reproduced, only the biological is reproduced. The source of Goodness, the deep inside of us that longs for God is given to the human from God himself, could this be wounded before we are even born.
Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand
I know we can not know everything, but other sites will go into much depth on this subject, I suppose if the CCC did it would add a thousand more pages to it, but just leaving it as a “mystery” for 21st century doesn’t help. Maybe it was ok five hundred years or so ago, but I think it could do with bringing into 21st century thought. Not saying things should be changed…
From your post 366, maybe it wasn’t your intention, but when people are asking about somethings which they don’t understand, others believe them to be prideful, or wanting to know all the answers to everything so they can be greater or as great as God. Not in my case, I just seek knowledge, and better understanding, to know why other faith teachings are incorrect and ours is correct.
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simpleas
Guest
Thanks.
Why say that God gives us a soul then? Why not our soul’s come from the first man and woman, that by their sin and separation from God, the soul is reproduced along with the body at the time of conception, and until Christ came all were without grace.
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grannymh
Guest
In the Catholic Church, there is no mystery about God being omniscient, that is, all knowing, including exactly how bad Adam’s descendants would sin. It may be a mystery as to how God knew the future, but it is not a mystery whether He knew it! Almighty eternal Divine omniscience is Catholic dogma and metaphysical certitude.
God’s true omniscience can serve as a minor demonstration of the reality of Adam. This is because Catholic teaching is that all humankind is in Adam “as one body of one man”. (Information source: CCC 360; CCC 404; St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4, 1.)
The difference between powerful descriptions and Catholic doctrines is the word “perhaps” when referring to a humanly “unfathomable abyss…”
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fhansen
Guest
I’m not sure I understand the question. God gives us a soul-and a body for that matter- either way. The parents are sort of incidental co-creators.
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