Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[simpleas]

I do recognize that it is acceptable for Catholics to speculate until the cows come home. That being said, it is very important to present Catholic Church teachings so that readers will not come away with false ideas about the Catholic Church.

Regarding posts 923 & 924.

When it comes to speculations about what would happen if the original Adam had not committed the Original Sin, the Catholic Church says this.
From CCC 404
“But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

Some people are concerned about the current truth regarding humanity’s original relationship with the Divine Creator. When it comes to speculations about the events surrounding Original Sin or no Original Sin, we need to remain within Catholic teachings. It is legitimate to speculate what would happen if Adam had never disobeyed (post 923) God’s proper commandment. But, we cannot change Catholic doctrines.

Unfortunately, there are people who do not recognize subtle attacks against some basic Catholic doctrines when they read general information about Adam and Eve. Not recognizing these attacks, often there are speculations which, in some manner, turn away from the deep truths of Catholicism.

Just to add, I’m not trying to change Catholic doctrines, just trying to understand their meanings. And so I question what I can’t quite grasp. And of course some speculation pops in now and again.

Thanks.

 

[simpleas]

This is categorically false. God is good. He needs no evil to be in existence. The angels were created good. They did not need evil to exist for them to exist.

I did not say God needed evil to exist, God existed before he even created anything. I was refering to the quote provided by St Augustine.

What is St Augustine speaking of here then?

St Augustine says “It seems to me that man would have had no prospect of any special praise, if he were able to lead a good life simply because there was none to persuade him to lead an evil life; since both by nature he had the power, and in his power he had the will, not to consent to the persuader.”

Seems he is saying that man is worthy of praise when he leads a good life because he does not succumb to the temptation of evil. therefore, there has to be evil in order for temptation to exist, and for man to resist it and live a good live worthy of that praise.

 

[Richca]

Originally posted by Richca:
Apparently, Eve also believed the lie from the devil that the tree would give her wisdom for human beings naturally desire to know for the object of the intellect is truth and knowledge.

So are you saying humans would naturally disobey God, because of our desire for truth and knowledge?

No, to disobey God is naturally against right reason and truth. To disobey God is a bad act, a sin, and there is no truth in sin. The object of our intellects is truth especially knowledge of the highest truth which is God and truth corresponds with knowledge. So we have a natural desire to know as Aristotle said “All men by nature, desire to know.” The devil knows this and so he tempted Eve according to our natural desire for truth and knowledge, telling her that if she ate the fruit from the forbidden tree, she would be like gods, knowing good from evil. The devil here lied to Eve and persuaded Eve to believe that eating of the tree would give her some kind of knowledge or wisdom equal to God’s which for a creature is impossible as our knowledge is finite and God’s knowledge is infinite. The devil also lied to Eve by telling her that she wouldn’t die if she ate the fruit which is contrary to what God told her and Adam. Disobedience to God is not truth or wisdom but a lie and a sin. Adam and Eve did not become more like to God by eating the forbidden fruit, on the contrary, they lost sanctifying grace and became subject to dying.

 

[grannymh]

I did not say God needed evil to exist, God existed before he even created anything. I was refering to the quote provided by St Augustine.

What is St Augustine speaking of here then?

St Augustine says “It seems to me that man would have had no prospect of any special praise, if he were able to lead a good life simply because there was none to persuade him to lead an evil life; since both by nature he had the power, and in his power he had the will, not to consent to the persuader.”

Seems he is saying that man is worthy of praise when he leads a good life because he does not succumb to the temptation of evil. therefore, there has to be evil in order for temptation to exist, and for man to resist it and live a good live worthy of that praise.

May I gently remind people, that “special praise” may be nice; but the real point, according to St. Augustine, is that we simply need to lead a “good life” (aka being in the State of Sanctifying Grace) which is our ticket to joy eternal. :heaven:

In addition, the first axiom I proposed is 1. God as Creator exists. Please refer to posts 916 & 918 as a start to knowledge of God. Reading the verses in the first three chapters of Genesis is very helpful when learning about God and His real relationship with His human creatures.

Odd coincidence.
This AM, I was thinking about all the posts which miss the point of God’s existence. When talking about Original Sin, posters give examples about “fathers” and their children – what “fathers” should do and not do.

Folks. It is time to recognize that God is not a human father.

 

[fhansen]

I did not say God needed evil to exist, God existed before he even created anything. I was refering to the quote provided by St Augustine.

What is St Augustine speaking of here then?

St Augustine says “It seems to me that man would have had no prospect of any special praise, if he were able to lead a good life simply because there was none to persuade him to lead an evil life; since both by nature he had the power, and in his power he had the will, not to consent to the persuader.”

Seems he is saying that man is worthy of praise when he leads a good life because he does not succumb to the temptation of evil. therefore, there has to be evil in order for temptation to exist, and for man to resist it and live a good live worthy of that praise.

The point is that good exists independent of evil-because God and everything He created is inherently good-while evil can only exist in relationship *to *that good-because it’s actually a negation of or detraction from it. Adam may have needed to experience evil in order to learn to appreciate the good, but that doesn’t mean that he absolutely couldn’t have chosen the good, alone; evil doesn’t need to exist in order for good to exist, but only serves to bring the good into the light by contrast.

 

[grannymh]

Just to add, I’m not trying to change Catholic doctrines, just trying to understand their meanings. And so I question what I can’t quite grasp. And of course some speculation pops in now and again.

Thanks.

I am confident that you understand that when a free speech speculation is contrary to some basic Catholic doctrines, it is important to clarify the real Catholic doctrines.

 

[simpleas]

I am confident that you understand that when a free speech speculation is contrary to some basic Catholic doctrines, it is important to clarify the real Catholic doctrines.

 

[simpleas]

No, to disobey God is naturally against right reason and truth. To disobey God is a bad act, a sin, and there is no truth in sin. The object of our intellects is truth especially knowledge of the highest truth which is God and truth corresponds with knowledge. So we have a natural desire to know as Aristotle said “All men by nature, desire to know.” The devil knows this and so he tempted Eve according to our natural desire for truth and knowledge, telling her that if she ate the fruit from the forbidden tree, she would be like gods, knowing good from evil. The devil here lied to Eve and persuaded Eve to believe that eating of the tree would give her some kind of knowledge or wisdom equal to God’s which for a creature is impossible as our knowledge is finite and God’s knowledge is infinite. The devil also lied to Eve by telling her that she wouldn’t die if she ate the fruit which is contrary to what God told her and Adam. Disobedience to God is not truth or wisdom but a lie and a sin. Adam and Eve did not become more like to God by eating the forbidden fruit, on the contrary, they lost sanctifying grace and became subject to dying.

Yes but again, A&E made good, with reason, intellect etc naturally had a desire to know more, but when they did disobey by using their abilities, they are punished.
Why give a creature these abilities, a desire for truth, which they would never have attained anyway? We now as a people understand that sometimes evil is needed to draw out the good, I don’t mean we have to have evil exist in order to know good, but when we look bad on historical facts we can see how much we have changed as humans.

 

[simpleas]

The point is that good exists independent of evil-because God and everything He created is inherently good-while evil can only exist in relationship *to *that good-because it’s actually a negation of or detraction from it. Adam may have needed to experience evil in order to learn to appreciate the good, but that doesn’t mean that he absolutely couldn’t have chosen the good, alone; evil doesn’t need to exist in order for good to exist, but only serves to bring the good into the light by contrast.

Well it seems A&E needed to experience evil in order to know good, or we wouldn’t be able to say we are born with the stain of that O.S.
We can’t deny that we are told they had a relationship with God and within that relationship they had all that they needed, yet their desire was to know more, which was natural because that is the way humans are made.

I’m pretty much done with this, thanks to all for the conversation, not many will keep discussing something which is tricky (for me anyway) to understand, even when I asked a priest for some teaching on O.S he said it’s just a story to tell us how we got here.
I know I’ll keep pondering on it.

Thanks.

 

[grannymh]

Yes but again, A&E made good, with reason, intellect etc naturally had a desire to know more, but when they did disobey by using their abilities, they are punished.
Why give a creature these abilities, a desire for truth, which they would never have attained anyway? We now as a people understand that sometimes evil is needed to draw out the good, I don’t mean we have to have evil exist in order to know good, but when we look bad on historical facts we can see how much we have changed as humans.

]

Suggestion.

It is time to go back to Catholic doctrines regarding the goal of human nature.
(Refer to post 924 speculations and the questions of human nature and Genesis 1: 26-28)

Human nature per se, with or without the contracted State of Original Sin is created to seek God. At the very least, human nature, with or without the contracted State of Original, can look into the why, how, and what of the material physical world. That is known as natural science. Even the material wonders of natural science can lead one to seek the Creator.

 

[grannymh]

Well it seems A&E needed to experience evil in order to know good, or we wouldn’t be able to say we are born with the stain of that O.S.
We can’t deny that we are told they had a relationship with God and within that relationship they had all that they needed, yet their desire was to know more, which was natural because that is the way humans are made.

I’m pretty much done with this, thanks to all for the conversation, not many will keep discussing something which is tricky (for me anyway) to understand, even when I asked a priest for some teaching on O.S he said it’s just a story to tell us how we got here.
I know I’ll keep pondering on it.

Thanks.

Just a story? How sad.

Suggestion.

Try seeing the good in Catholic doctrines. Start with a doctrine such as the reality of Adam and Eve and trace God’s love from the beginning to this very day.

Unfortunately, wolves in sheep’s clothing have so intimidated ordinary folk, that the truth of God’s love becomes tricky and therefore doubtful.

In previous posts, including the original Adam & Logic thread, I have presented different ideas about the reality of Adam.

Perhaps, it is time to start with the Good Shepherd.

turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Jesus-Good-Shepherd-13.jpg

 

[davidv]

Yes but again, A&E made good, with reason, intellect etc naturally had a desire to know more, but when they did disobey by using their abilities, they are punished.
Why give a creature these abilities, a desire for truth, which they would never have attained anyway?

How do you know they could not have attained it. Their failure does not show that their failure was inevitable.

We now as a people understand that sometimes evil is needed to draw out the good,

Who are these we? And, how do they know this?

I don’t mean we have to have evil exist in order to know good, but when we look bad on historical facts we can see how much we have changed as humans.

What is, is a poor measure of what ought to be, or could have been.

 

[Richca]

Yes but again, A&E made good, with reason, intellect etc naturally had a desire to know more, but when they did disobey by using their abilities, they are punished.

Were you ever punished or corrected by your parents for doing wrong? Did your parents ever apply discipline to you? Maybe you were a very good child who never needed correction. In my case, I was not always a good child and my parents disciplined me even with the rod as it is written “Whoever spares the rod hates the child, but whoever loves will apply discipline.” (Proverbs 13:24).

If God was not a father to us and didn’t love or care about us, than I suppose he could just let us go our own way and let us do our own thing with the consequence of being eternally miserable. Is this what you want, to live in eternal misery and unhappiness? Its hard to fathom, but there are some people and angels who choose misery and unhappiness over happiness and love which has its source in God. God is happiness and love and when we depart from the source by doing something contrary to God’s will, than we are consigning ourselves to our own destruction, misery, and unhappiness as it is written " Destruction is thy own, oh Israel, thy help is only in me" (Hosea 13:9).

Yes, God created us with faculties and abilities which by nature we desire goodness, truth, love, virtue, happiness, and God himself. These faculties are meant to be used in accord with our nature and for happiness of which God is our ultimate and final happiness. If we use them for evil purposes than we are departing from goodness, happiness, and God and whatever man chooses is given him as it is written " Before everyone are life and death, whichever they choose will be given them" (Sirach 15: 17).

Why give a creature these abilities, a desire for truth, which they would never have attained anyway?

 

[Richca]

I did not say God needed evil to exist, God existed before he even created anything. I was refering to the quote provided by St Augustine.

What is St Augustine speaking of here then?

St Augustine says “It seems to me that man would have had no prospect of any special praise, if he were able to lead a good life simply because there was none to persuade him to lead an evil life; since both by nature he had the power, and in his power he had the will, not to consent to the persuader.”

Seems he is saying that man is worthy of praise when he leads a good life because he does not succumb to the temptation of evil. therefore, there has to be evil in order for temptation to exist, and for man to resist it and live a good live worthy of that praise.

That there has to be evil for temptation to exist is drawing a conclusion that St Augustine does not make, Holy Scripture does not make, or the faith of the Catholic Church. This is simply a product of your own mind. God does not find pleasure of the death of the wicked: “For I find no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies—oracle of the Lord GOD. Turn back and live!” (Ezekiel 18:32).

St Augustine is simply looking at the facts of the case, the teaching of Holy Scripture and the faith of the Church. He is not much concerned or asking himself, why aren’t things different?
The facts are (1) There are good and bad angels who are good or bad by their own free choice, the good angels help us and watch over us, the bad angels tempt us and they are bent on our destruction. (2) Eve was tempted by the devil. (3) God does all things or permits things for a good purpose. Nothing is done or permitted except for some good. In God’s infinite wisdom and wise plan of providence, he permits the devils to tempt us for our own good. So St Augustine says: “It seems to me that man would have had no prospect of any special praise, if he were able to lead a good life simply because there was none to persuade him to lead an evil life; since both by nature he had the power, and in his power he had the will, not to consent to the persuader.” God draws good out of evil so that while the devils tempt us and are hell bent on our destruction, God draws good out of their malice so that if we do not succumb to their temptations, God rewards us with good. If we do succumb which we probably all have at some time or another, then we need to ask God’s forgiveness, humble ourselves before Him and rely on Him more, pick ourselves back up and carry on.
“My child, when you come to serve the Lord,* prepare yourself for trials.” (Sirach 2: 1).
“Accept whatever happens to you; in periods of humiliation be patient.
For in fire gold is tested,
and the chosen, in the crucible of humiliation” (Sirach 2: 4-5).
“One never put to the proof, knows little” (Sirach 34:10).

 

[grannymh]

Thank you Richca, davidv, and fhansen for excellent answers to some very difficult questions.

 

[simpleas]

How do you know they could not have attained it. Their failure does not show that their failure was inevitable.

Who are these we? And, how do they know this?

What is, is a poor measure of what ought to be, or could have been.

Because they sinned, God knew they would not have attained it, I suppose they didn’t know that they were unable to attain it.

My mind was wondering and I was thinking about all the wars through the centuries, how people believed they were right to invade anothers land and take control, destroying people who did not agree with their way of life, and how now we realise we can not live in peace with each other when evil takes the reigns.

So we’re a poor measure of what? A perfect Adam and Eve? I don’t agree with that…

 

[davidv]

Because they sinned, God knew they would not have attained it, I suppose they didn’t know that they were unable to attain it.

What is your evidence that this supposing is an accurate description of reality.

My mind was wondering and I was thinking about all the wars through the centuries, how people believed they were right to invade anothers land and take control, destroying people who did not agree with their way of life, and how now we realise we can not live in peace with each other when evil takes the reigns.

So we’re a poor measure of what?

In our sin we are a poor measure of what could have been, free of sin.

A perfect Adam and Eve? I don’t agree with that…

Why not?

 

[simpleas]

Were you ever punished or corrected by your parents for doing wrong? Did your parents ever apply discipline to you? Maybe you were a very good child who never needed correction. In my case, I was not always a good child and my parents disciplined me even with the rod as it is written “Whoever spares the rod hates the child, but whoever loves will apply discipline.” (Proverbs 13:24).

 

[simpleas]

That there has to be evil for temptation to exist is drawing a conclusion that St Augustine does not make, Holy Scripture does not make, or the faith of the Catholic Church. This is simply a product of your own mind. God does not find pleasure of the death of the wicked: “For I find no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies—oracle of the Lord GOD. Turn back and live!” (Ezekiel 18:32).

St Augustine is simply looking at the facts of the case, the teaching of Holy Scripture and the faith of the Church. He is not much concerned or asking himself, why aren’t things different?
The facts are (1) There are good and bad angels who are good or bad by their own free choice, the good angels help us and watch over us, the bad angels tempt us and they are bent on our destruction. (2) Eve was tempted by the devil. (3) God does all things or permits things for a good purpose. Nothing is done or permitted except for some good. In God’s infinite wisdom and wise plan of providence, he permits the devils to tempt us for our own good. So St Augustine says: “It seems to me that man would have had no prospect of any special praise, if he were able to lead a good life simply because there was none to persuade him to lead an evil life; since both by nature he had the power, and in his power he had the will, not to consent to the persuader.” God draws good out of evil so that while the devils tempt us and are hell bent on our destruction, God draws good out of their malice so that if we do not succumb to their temptations, God rewards us with good. If we do succumb which we probably all have at some time or another, then we need to ask God’s forgiveness, humble ourselves before Him and rely on Him more, pick ourselves back up and carry on.
“My child, when you come to serve the Lord,* prepare yourself for trials.” (Sirach 2: 1).
“Accept whatever happens to you; in periods of humiliation be patient.
For in fire gold is tested,
and the chosen, in the crucible of humiliation” (Sirach 2: 4-5).
“One never put to the proof, knows little” (Sirach 34:10).

My mind boggles…

I did not say God finds pleasure in death, I said if there is temptation, then there needs to be something that tempts, aka evil. If man stays in goodness because he so desires and avoids that which is evil, then he does the will of God.

 

[simpleas]

Thank you Richca, davidv, and fhansen for excellent answers to some very difficult questions.

Now I feel left out…:crying: