Continuation from post 97.
I’d agree the Fall consisted in not trusting God, not revering God as God for all practical purposes. And this leaves man, well, Godless- rudderless, without a Commanding Officer, even as we may still think autonomy is the better choice.
Would God have logical reason’s though? We can’t even begin to think what God would think about anything. We often think what we want to think that God is thinking, but how close are we really?
As a further thought no where in genesis does God command the first two humans to obey him. He does place a rule and a consequence of that rule, which does not destroy the human and extinguish them from existence, but hinders their ability to fully love God.
Think Catholic Church
I’d have to disagree on God not commanding A&E to obey. His command, itself, implied a demand for obedience. But He certainly didn’t force that obedience. The good that could come out of it all is that they learn, for themselves, the necessity for obedience to the command, the goodness in that obedience, the need for and rectitude of man’s “partnership” with God. We value our autonomy-and so does God- but it’s ironically, perhaps, to use our autonomy to choose to obey-because we actually *will *to obey IOW…
This is a popular example of misunderstanding some basic Catholic teachings. Being on “leave of absence” does not mean I ignore opposition to Catholic teachings.
This is an example of a “feel-good” explanation which conveniently sidesteps the seriousness of God’s command.
“They experience” is an after-the-fact explanation which only works when the original relationship between humanity and Divinity is clearly stated up front.
I am assuming that this general statement is related to Adam’s intellective free will which enables him to understand God’s very serious command before he freely chose to scorn his Creator. A concise explanation is in CCC 1730-1732.
Ok, I just seem to be reading the story differently each time I think on it. God doesn’t command that they obey him, he tells them that eating of the forbidden tree will cause them to die, it’s more like a protection command , rather than obedience.
I would expect nothing less from you GrannyMH
Why only in some way and not completely? Merriam Webster defines disobedience as:
Please explain how A&E’s action does not meet this definition? What other definition might apply?
Or we’re learning for them? In one sense perhaps the whole world is learning corporately, even as some may not go along with the plan. In any case I’d agree that this learning, this forming of the will/conscience, is part of our justification. I’d go so far as to say that even Adam’s justice in Eden was not as full or perfect as it potentially could’ve been, and, I’d presume, is now.
The hard truth is that many “thoughts and speculations” regarding Adam and Eve have been discussed for many years. For example. The idea that it is us who are being spoken about instead of a literal Adam and Eve was a media splash about four years back. And I am sure that the idea was not original with the priest because I have read similar ideas that non-literal Adam and Eve figuratively represent truths about humanity since I landed on CAF. While free speech is proper for individuals who are bringing their own personal thoughts and speculations to the table, it is also proper to point out thoughts and speculations which oppose, regardless of presentation, fundamental Catholic teachings.
Because although it was disobedient, it doesn’t seem to be in a full hatred against God way some would think it was. Their trust in God was disturbed by the voice of the snake.
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness. (1707, 2541, 1850, 215)
Fair enough.
Genesis 1: 26-27