Adam & Logic

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Thank you for your reply and yes I understand the teaching authority of the church, however my question remains even our recent popes leave open the possibility of human evolution according to God’s divine plan…it is the gift of the Spirit at some point along the evolutionary chain Man has received a Soul, man comes to know God and God calls us His Children.
Is it Possible that God gave a Soul to ONE MAN along that chain ? One Woman?
I don’t understand …does not God make a Soul for each person as they are born… It is the Soul that is not part of the evolutionary process,not the flesh.
Please if possible…I like more information.
Tony
It is those who wish that the Catholic Church would modernize its doctrine of one, single couple who are misinterpreting the Popes etc.

Of course, all descendants of Adam and Eve have a soul directly and individually created by God.

Whatever process God used to bring about Adam’s anatomy ended with the one human person, Adam. A human person, you and I, are not born from more than two parents. Therefore, there is the logical, philosophical reason that children of human Adam and human Eve were not born from more parents than the original two.
 
Thank you for your reply and yes I understand the teaching authority of the church, however my question remains even our recent popes leave open the possibility of human evolution according to God’s divine plan…it is the gift of the Spirit at some point along the evolutionary chain Man has received a Soul, man comes to know God and God calls us His Children.
Is it Possible that God gave a Soul to ONE MAN along that chain ? One Woman?
I don’t understand …does not God make a Soul for each person as they are born… It is the Soul that is not part of the evolutionary process,not the flesh.
Please if possible…I like more information.
Tony
I can imagine the creation of the first man: an hominid infused with the spirit of God.
It makes sense given that we have in common with apes certain physical and behavioural characteristics. But whereas there are tendancies towards alpha-maleness and such that we share, we do not see a baboon shaman or priest. With the fall, having chosen to be gods, we are left struggling to be less like animals.

Issues may arise as to how Eve was created and how mankind multiplied from the original two.

Eve was made from a part of the totality that was Adam. God’s word creates the universe; so if He chose some meiosis-like process to bring Eve forth from Adam, that’s what would happen.
We are conceived as body and spirit from the union of our parents who are body-spirit. I don’t believe this could happen as a result of a hominid-human union.

Science has nothing to offer because events that cannot fit into accepted theoretical frameworks are discounted as untrue (healing of the sick, raising of the dead, miracle of the loaves and fish, Christ walking on water, calming the seas etc.) or at the very least not worth pursuing.
 
It is those who wish that the Catholic Church would modernize its doctrine of one, single couple who are misinterpreting the Popes etc.

Of course, all descendants of Adam and Eve have a soul directly and individually created by God.

Whatever process God used to bring about Adam’s anatomy ended with the one human person, Adam. A human person, you and I, are not born from more than two parents. Therefore, there is the logical, philosophical reason that children of human Adam and human Eve were not born from more parents than the original two.
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        Maybe this is room for some thought..Pope Benedict XVI gave this address.  I agree.with his views           Vatican City, 6 February 2013 (VIS) – Continuing his catechesis on the symbol of Christian faith, the Holy Father's General Audience today focused on the phrase “Creator of heaven and earth”, explained in light of the first chapter of Genesis.
“God,” the Pope said, “is the source of all things and the beauty of creation reveals the omnipotence of the loving Father. As the origin of life … He cares for what has He has created with unceasing love and faithfulness. Creation, therefore, becomes the place in which to know God’s omnipotence and goodness and becomes a call to faith for believers so that we might proclaim God as Creator. … In the light of faith, human intelligence can find the key to understanding the world In Sacred Scripture. Particularly … in the first chapter of Genesis, with the solemn presentation of divine creative action … … Everything God creates is good, and beautiful, full of wisdom and love. God’s creative action brings order and infuses harmony and beauty into it. In the story of Genesis, it later says that the Lord created with His word and ten times in the text the phrase ‘God said’ is repeated… Life springs forth, the world exists, so that everything might obey the Word of God.”

“But does it still make sense to talk about creation,” the Pope wondered, “in this age of science and technology? The Bible isn’t intended to be a natural science manual. Its intention is to reveal the authentic and profound truth of things. The fundamental truth revealed in the stories of Genesis is that the world isn’t a collection of opposing forces, but has its origin and stability in the Logos, in God’s eternal reason, which continues to sustain the universe. There is a plan for the world that springs from this reason, from the Creator Spirit.”
Men and women, human beings, the only ones capable of knowing and loving the Creator,” are the apex of all creation. “The creation stories in Genesis … help us to know God’s plan for humanity. First, they say that God formed man out of the clay of the ground. … This means that we are not God; we have not made ourselves; we are clay. But it also means that we come from the good earth by an act of the Creator. … Beyond any cultural and historical distinctions, beyond any social difference, we are one humanity, formed from the one earth of God who … blew the breath of life into the body formed from the earth. … The human being is made in the image and likeness of God. … We carry within us His life-giving breath and all human life is under God’s special protection. This is the deepest reason for the inviolability of human dignity against any temptation to judge the person according to criteria of utility or power
“If, in the faith of the Church, an awareness arose of the dogma of original sin, this is because it is inseparably connected to another dogma, that of salvation and freedom in Christ. This means that we should never consider the sin of Adam and of humankind separately, without understanding them within the horizon of justification in Christ,” the Pope continued.
The Holy Father then said that, “Men today should ask themselves: What is original sin?” Pope Benedict called attention to two particular aspects of the Genesis story. First he spoke of the serpent, “a figure derived from oriental fertility cults that fascinated Israel and that were a constant temptation to forsake the mysterious covenant with God.” The serpent, he said, offers the temptation of “building a world of one’s own without accepting the limits of being a creature.”

There is more to this address and if this is a misinterpretation…please explain
Please accepts my Thanks for responding
God Bless
Tony

PS…I truly believe the Pope when he spoke of clay he clearly means it as a metaphor in context of the address.
 
Maybe this is room for some thought…Pope Benedict XVI gave this address. I agree.with his views Vatican City, 6 February 2013 (VIS) – Continuing his catechesis on the symbol of Christian faith, the Holy Father’s General Audience today focused on the phrase “Creator of heaven and earth”, explained in light of the first chapter of Genesis.

“God,” the Pope said, “is the source of all things and the beauty of creation reveals the omnipotence of the loving Father. As the origin of life … He cares for what has He has created with unceasing love and faithfulness. Creation, therefore, becomes the place in which to know God’s omnipotence and goodness and becomes a call to faith for believers so that we might proclaim God as Creator. … In the light of faith, human intelligence can find the key to understanding the world In Sacred Scripture. Particularly … in the first chapter of Genesis, with the solemn presentation of divine creative action … … Everything God creates is good, and beautiful, full of wisdom and love. God’s creative action brings order and infuses harmony and beauty into it. In the story of Genesis, it later says that the Lord created with His word and ten times in the text the phrase ‘God said’ is repeated… Life springs forth, the world exists, so that everything might obey the Word of God.”

“But does it still make sense to talk about creation,” the Pope wondered, “in this age of science and technology? The Bible isn’t intended to be a natural science manual. Its intention is to reveal the authentic and profound truth of things. The fundamental truth revealed in the stories of Genesis is that the world isn’t a collection of opposing forces, but has its origin and stability in the Logos, in God’s eternal reason, which continues to sustain the universe. There is a plan for the world that springs from this reason, from the Creator Spirit.”
Men and women, human beings, the only ones capable of knowing and loving the Creator,” are the apex of all creation. “The creation stories in Genesis … help us to know God’s plan for humanity. First, they say that God formed man out of the clay of the ground. … This means that we are not God; we have not made ourselves; we are clay. But it also means that we come from the good earth by an act of the Creator. … Beyond any cultural and historical distinctions, beyond any social difference, we are one humanity, formed from the one earth of God who … blew the breath of life into the body formed from the earth. … The human being is made in the image and likeness of God. … We carry within us His life-giving breath and all human life is under God’s special protection. This is the deepest reason for the inviolability of human dignity against any temptation to judge the person according to criteria of utility or power
“If, in the faith of the Church, an awareness arose of the dogma of original sin, this is because it is inseparably connected to another dogma, that of salvation and freedom in Christ. This means that we should never consider the sin of Adam and of humankind separately, without understanding them within the horizon of justification in Christ,” the Pope continued.
The Holy Father then said that, “Men today should ask themselves: What is original sin?” Pope Benedict called attention to two particular aspects of the Genesis story. First he spoke of the serpent, “a figure derived from oriental fertility cults that fascinated Israel and that were a constant temptation to forsake the mysterious covenant with God.” The serpent, he said, offers the temptation of “building a world of one’s own without accepting the limits of being a creature.”

There is more to this address and if this is a misinterpretation…please explain
Please accepts my Thanks for responding
God Bless
Tony

PS…I truly believe the Pope when he spoke of clay he clearly means it as a metaphor in context of the address.
I agree with the Pope too, but I am not sure how you wish to relate this to:
Originally Posted by grannymh
It is those who wish that the Catholic Church would modernize its doctrine of one, single couple who are misinterpreting the Popes etc.
Of course, all descendants of Adam and Eve have a soul directly and individually created by God.
Whatever process God used to bring about Adam’s anatomy ended with the one human person, Adam. A human person, you and I, are not born from more than two parents. Therefore, there is the logical, philosophical reason that children of human Adam and human Eve were not born from more parents than the original two.
 
Originally Posted by BklynTony forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Maybe this is room for some thought…Pope Benedict XVI gave this address. I agree.with his views Vatican City, 6 February 2013 (VIS) – Continuing his catechesis on the symbol of Christian faith, the Holy Father’s General Audience today focused on the phrase “Creator of heaven and earth”, explained in light of the first chapter of Genesis.

“God,” the Pope said, “is the source of all things and the beauty of creation reveals the omnipotence of the loving Father. As the origin of life … He cares for what has He has created with unceasing love and faithfulness. Creation, therefore, becomes the place in which to know God’s omnipotence and goodness and becomes a call to faith for believers so that we might proclaim God as Creator. … In the light of faith, human intelligence can find the key to understanding the world In Sacred Scripture. Particularly … in the first chapter of Genesis, with the solemn presentation of divine creative action … … Everything God creates is good, and beautiful, full of wisdom and love. God’s creative action brings order and infuses harmony and beauty into it. In the story of Genesis, it later says that the Lord created with His word and ten times in the text the phrase ‘God said’ is repeated… Life springs forth, the world exists, so that everything might obey the Word of God.”


*“But does it still make sense to talk about creation,” the Pope wondered, “in this age of science and technology? The Bible isn’t intended to be a natural science manual. Its intention is to reveal the authentic and profound truth of things. The fundamental truth revealed in the stories of Genesis is that the world isn’t a collection of opposing forces, but has its origin and stability in the Logos, in God’s eternal reason, which continues to sustain the universe. There is a plan for the world that springs from this reason, from the Creator Spirit.” *
Men and women, human beings, the only ones capable of knowing and loving the Creator,” are the apex of all creation. “The creation stories in Genesis … help us to know God’s plan for humanity. First, they say that God formed man out of the clay of the ground. … This means that we are not God; we have not made ourselves; we are clay. But it also means that we come from the good earth by an act of the Creator. … Beyond any cultural and historical distinctions, beyond any social difference, we are one humanity, formed from the one earth of God who … blew the breath of life into the body formed from the earth. … The human being is made in the image and likeness of God. … We carry within us His life-giving breath and all human life is under God’s special protection. This is the deepest reason for the inviolability of human dignity against any temptation to judge the person according to criteria of utility or power
“If, in the faith of the Church, an awareness arose of the dogma of original sin, this is because it is inseparably connected to another dogma, that of salvation and freedom in Christ. This means that we should never consider the sin of Adam and of humankind separately, without understanding them within the horizon of justification in Christ,” the Pope continued.

*The Holy Father then said that, “Men today should ask themselves: What is original sin?” Pope Benedict called attention to two particular aspects of the Genesis story. First he spoke of the serpent, “a figure derived from oriental fertility cults that fascinated Israel and that were a constant temptation to forsake the mysterious covenant with God.” The serpent, he said, offers the temptation of “building a world of one’s own without accepting the limits of being a creature.” *
There is more to this address and if this is a misinterpretation…please explain
Please accepts my Thanks for responding
God Bless
Tony
I agree with the Pope too, but I am not sure how you wish to relate this to:
**cut from granny Post 78 **
**It is those who want the Church to modernize its doctrines, who are misinterpreting the Popes etc. **

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s catechesis (post 80) quoted above is great. Thank you Tony. As it stands, it is not misinterpreted.

However, here is how one sentence --“The Bible isn’t intended to be a natural science manual.”-- can be misused.

There are different versions of the Pope’s sentence. When they stick to scientific information about the material/physical world, all is fine. It is when an interpreter slips from our material environment to our human nature that Catholic doctrines on Adam and Original Sin are attacked. It is like a bait and switch tactic.

The teaser is our agreement that Chapter 1 of Genesis is not a scientific textbook; therefore, it uses figurative language with symbolic meanings. Therefore, the rest of the first three chapters uses figurative language and symbols. Therefore, Adam is a symbol, not a real person… What really gets to us is the fact that there is figurative language such as an organic fruit tree and a creepy critter.
(CCC 390)

Without a proper knowledge of Catholic doctrines, it is so easy to assume (and you know what that does) that the predominance of science in one area automatically covers all areas. That is what can happen when some, not all, interpreters expand a single sentence to the idea that science, alone, can explain the human person.

Please note that science does a good job with our decomposing anatomy especially in the medical/health areas.

Here is the context from post 80…* “The Bible isn’t intended to be a natural science manual. Its intention is to reveal the authentic and profound truth of things. The fundamental truth revealed in the stories of Genesis is…”*
 
grannymh

Do you think the Bible is being literal when it talks about a first man and a first woman who were in communion with God until they sinned, and are there any special texts that you feel are evidence or clues that their existence is meant to be taken literally? This is not to “catch you” but instead to learn some information from someone who has studied Genesis more than I have. I personally believe they are meant to be taken literally, but I am not sure what else I would consider literal. For example, the apple is an obvious metaphor, and I doubt that Satan took on the form of a serpent, although I do not contest the fact that he could. It’s just the “feel” I get about these things when I read the creation story.

Peace.

James
 
grannymh

Do you think the Bible is being literal when it talks about a first man and a first woman who were in communion with God until they sinned, and are there any special texts that you feel are evidence or clues that their existence is meant to be taken literally? This is not to “catch you” but instead to learn some information from someone who has studied Genesis more than I have. I personally believe they are meant to be taken literally, but I am not sure what else I would consider literal. For example, the apple is an obvious metaphor, and I doubt that Satan took on the form of a serpent, although I do not contest the fact that he could. It’s just the “feel” I get about these things when I read the creation story.

Peace.

James
This is really scary. It is like you read my mind. :eek:

In my humble opinion, definitely, there are clues and evidence that “the Bible is being literal when it talks about a first man and a first woman who were in communion with God until they sinned.” I find pieces of the puzzle which go together but not all the straight edge pieces of the frame. I have been looking at those Genesis chapters as hinging on the “straight edge” of creation.

Note: I keep a huge puzzle on my table which has become a family activity as my kids and grannykids work on it when they visit. Their different perspectives are what completes the puzzle.

Of course, seeing Genesis from the perspective of creation is a very good thing. Nonetheless, as soon as I saw your phrase “communion with God”, I recognized it as naming my own perspective. Doh! How often have I heard the phrase that God reveals Himself starting in the Old Testament and finishing in Jesus Christ, “the Father’s one, perfect, and unsurpassable Word … He has said everything.” (CCC 65)
:doh2:

In my neck of the woods, it is too early for me to rise and shine. I need to finish sleeping before I can communicate with anyone. By the way, “catch me” if you can. I grew up in an environment of constant challenges and, to me, that is often the best way to learn.

A small bit of info. This is a new and not quite a granny-friendly computer. The computer doctor is eventually coming so it may be some time before I start attaching the puzzle pieces to your frame of “communion with God until they sinned.”
 
**

**cut from granny Post 78 **
**It is those who want the Church to modernize its doctrines, who are misinterpreting the Popes etc. **

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s catechesis (post 80) quoted above is great. Thank you Tony. As it stands, it is not misinterpreted.

However, here is how one sentence --“The Bible isn’t intended to be a natural science manual.”-- can be misused.

There are different versions of the Pope’s sentence. When they stick to scientific information about the material/physical world, all is fine. It is when an interpreter slips from our material environment to our human nature that Catholic doctrines on Adam and Original Sin are attacked. It is like a bait and switch tactic.

The teaser is our agreement that Chapter 1 of Genesis is not a scientific textbook; therefore, it uses figurative language with symbolic meanings. Therefore, the rest of the first three chapters uses figurative language and symbols. Therefore, Adam is a symbol, not a real person… What really gets to us is the fact that there is figurative language such as an organic fruit tree and a creepy critter.
(CCC 390)

Without a proper knowledge of Catholic doctrines, it is so easy to assume (and you know what that does) that the predominance of science in one area automatically covers all areas. That is what can happen when some, not all, interpreters expand a single sentence to the idea that science, alone, can explain the human person.

Please note that science does a good job with our decomposing anatomy especially in the medical/health areas.

Here is the context from post 80…* “The Bible isn’t intended to be a natural science manual. Its intention is to reveal the authentic and profound truth of things. The fundamental truth revealed in the stories of Genesis is…”*
I like to make it clear…I am NOT disputing Adam and Eve…I simply trying to state that the MEANS of their CREATION may have been evolutionary as opposed to POP there you are. Even Pope Pius XII states" For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God."

It is the SOUL which makes us in the image of God and this is God’s immediate creation and NOT the Body. In conclusion I believe it is within Church teaching if one chooses to believe evolution brings forth the flesh and God in His Divine Plan chose the Time , the place and the WHO He places his Created Soul
Thank You
Tony
Thank you
 
grannymh

Do you think the Bible is being literal when it talks about a first man and a first woman who were in communion with God until they sinned, and are there any special texts that you feel are evidence or clues that their existence is meant to be taken literally?
Pardon me for answering your valid question with a question.

Actually, it is a question from page 80,* ‘In the Beginning…’ A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall.* Here, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI asks: “Is there something proper to human beings that ultimately can be explained only in theological terms? Or, in the cold light of day, must humankind be relegated to the domain of the natural sciences?”

As I returned to my favorite explanatory verses in the first three chapters of Genesis, there was a nagging question. If this Genesis author was not a scientist, what was he? Stepping back from the contemporary battles over science and scripture, it seemed to me that, among many other things, the author(s) was philosophizing, i.e., he was using his rational gifts to seek knowledge about God and the human being.:doh2:
Apparently, this author(s) was discerning between the various stories handed down by the early descendants of our original parents Adam and Eve. We need to remember that like children today, Adam’s children either remained true to Adam’s teachings or they rejected them as an old man’s wandering imagination. They, too, wanted to be “modern”.😉

Obviously, these Genesis writers started with the simple observation that their people had a real relationship with the real God. Like us, with our ancestor trees, these writers, under the inspiration and guidance of God Himself, pulled together the truth of human ancestry and original sin.

Sidebar In my childhood neighborhood there was this saying. “Every family tree has a horse thief hanging from a branch.”

When we look at both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament together, we find an amazing oneness. For example. John 3:16 verifies that the very beginning of human life was a communion of love between God the Creator and His first human creatures, Adam and Eve. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.” Genesis, chapter 3 contains the* Protoevangelium* (“first gospel”) the “first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers. The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam”…” (paragraphs 410 and 411, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition) With divine inspiration, St. Paul verifies the preceding in Romans 5: 12-21.

What is personally amazing to me, is that the author(s) of the first three chapters of Genesis did not know St. Paul’s writings; yet, they understood the condition of man which necessitated a Redeemer Who is True God and True Man. This line of reasoning by starting with the truth of Christ and working backwards is not original with me. A CAF poster shared his intellectual journey from Christ backwards to the final piece of the “puzzle” which had to be the reality of Adam and Eve

As Catholics, we believe in the literal Christ hanging bleeding on a literal cross.

It is philosophically reasonable to believe that the reason for Christ’s literal obedience even unto death is that there were both a literal original sin and an original human in whom existed the whole human race “as one body of one man”.
Footnote 293. St. Thomas Aquinas,* De Malo* 4, 1. (CCC 404)

We often isolate scripture passages from the context of the Bible. Normally, that is appropriate because there is an understanding of the larger context. Because of the Catechism’s paragraph 389, last sentence – “The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.” – I believe that it is important to first connect the literal Adam with the Catholic Church and its Sacrament of Baptism which literally erases original sin. (CCC 405)
A figure of speech does not need the cleansing “water” of Baptism’s sanctifying grace.😉

Yes. I shall return to those Genesis texts that, in my humble opinion, give evidence or clues that Adam and Eve are real people.

In the meantime – Please do not hesitate to cite the passages which you see as relevant to Adam’s existence as the first human person.🙂
 
Romans 5:12 Well then; it was through one man that sin came into the world, and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.13 Sin already existed in the world before there was any law, even though sin is not reckoned when there is no law.14 Nonetheless death reigned over all from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sin was not the breaking of a commandment, as Adam’s was. He prefigured the One who was to come . . .15 There is no comparison between the free gift and the offence. If death came to many through the offence of one man, how much greater an effect the grace of God has had, coming to so many and so plentifully as a free gift through the one man Jesus Christ!16 Again, there is no comparison between the gift and the offence of one man. One single offence brought condemnation, but now, after many offences, have come the free gift and so acquittal!17 It was by one man’s offence that death came to reign over all, but how much greater the reign in life of those who receive the fullness of grace and the gift of saving justice, through the one man, Jesus Christ.18 One man’s offence brought condemnation on all humanity; and one man’s good act has brought justification and life to all humanity.19 Just as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience are many to be made upright.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So the first man, Adam, as scripture says, became a living soul; and the last Adam has become a life-giving spirit. 46 But first came the natural body, not the spiritual one; that came only afterwards. 47 The first man, being made of earth, is earthly by nature; the second man is from heaven. 48 The earthly man is the pattern for earthly people, the heavenly man for heavenly ones. 49 And as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so we shall bear the likeness of the heavenly one. 50 What I am saying, brothers, is that mere human nature cannot inherit the kingdom of God: what is perishable cannot inherit what is imperishable. 51 Now I am going to tell you a mystery: we are not all going to fall asleep, 52 but we are all going to be changed, instantly, in the twinkling of an eye, when the last trumpet sounds. The trumpet is going to sound, and then the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed, 53 because this perishable nature of ours must put on imperishability, this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 And after this perishable nature has put on imperishability and this mortal nature has put on immortality, then will the words of scripture come true: Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?
 
Pardon me for answering your valid question with a question.

Actually, it is a question from page 80,* ‘In the Beginning…’ A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall.* Here, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI asks: “Is there something proper to human beings that ultimately can be explained only in theological terms? Or, in the cold light of day, must humankind be relegated to the domain of the natural sciences?”

When we look at both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament together, we find an amazing oneness. For example. John 3:16 verifies that the very beginning of human life was a communion of love between God the Creator and His first human creatures, Adam and Eve. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.” Genesis, chapter 3 contains the* Protoevangelium* (“first gospel”) the “first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers. The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam”…” (paragraphs 410 and 411, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition) With divine inspiration, St. Paul verifies the preceding in Romans 5: 12-21.

What is personally amazing to me, is that the author(s) of the first three chapters of Genesis did not know St. Paul’s writings; yet, they understood the condition of man which necessitated a Redeemer Who is True God and True Man. This line of reasoning by starting with the truth of Christ and working backwards is not original with me. A CAF poster shared his intellectual journey from Christ backwards to the final piece of the “puzzle” which had to be the reality of Adam and Eve

As Catholics, we believe in the literal Christ hanging bleeding on a literal cross.

It is philosophically reasonable to believe that the reason for Christ’s literal obedience even unto death is that there were both a literal original sin and an original human in whom existed the whole human race “as one body of one man”.
Footnote 293. St. Thomas Aquinas,* De Malo* 4, 1. (CCC 404)

We often isolate scripture passages from the context of the Bible. Normally, that is appropriate because there is an understanding of the larger context. Because of the Catechism’s paragraph 389, last sentence – “The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.” – I believe that it is important to first connect the literal Adam with the Catholic Church and its Sacrament of Baptism which literally erases original sin. (CCC 405)
A figure of speech does not need the cleansing “water” of Baptism’s sanctifying grace.😉

Yes. I shall return to those Genesis texts that, in my humble opinion, give evidence or clues that Adam and Eve are real people.

In the meantime – Please do not hesitate to cite the passages which you see as relevant to Adam’s existence as the first human person.🙂
I follow your reasoning and I agree with it. What especially stood out to me was “Christ’s literal obedience even unto death…” leads one to conclude “…that there were both a literal original sin and an original human in whom existed the whole human race ‘as one body of one man’.”

When I step back and ask myself why I believe there was a literal Adam and Eve I answer that it is simply easier to believe than not to believe-- believing anything else raises too many questions and uncomfortable answers. How does Eve being tempted first and sinning, then somehow being instrumental in Adam sinning, make any sense if we think in terms of a general evolution of men and women in which God simultaneously puts a human soul in all those who have evolved to a certain level? That conjures up visions of many humans, some of them sinning, and perhaps some of them staying obedient. Then what happens to their children? Are those born of sinless parents then born in sanctifying grace? Then, too, did anyone make it all the way to death without sinning, and wouldn’t they be entitled to immediately obtain a glorified body and attain to the beatific vision? There is no mention to support that, so one would be led to believe that all men and women sinned before dying. If that were true did all women sin first, and all men sin afterwards, as indicated in the text? How would this make any sense? And did all men and women sin by the very same sin, whatever it literally was? Or are we to believe that the original sin was really a conglomeration of original sins by different men, all of them collectively being Adam?

Lastly, not related to the previous line of reasoning, does not the Church declare a literal man, Adam, and a literal woman, Eve, by declaring their feast day December 24, or am I misconstruing this feast day?
 
I follow your reasoning and I agree with it. What especially stood out to me was “Christ’s literal obedience even unto death…” leads one to conclude “…that there were both a literal original sin and an original human in whom existed the whole human race ‘as one body of one man’.”

When I step back and ask myself why I believe there was a literal Adam and Eve I answer that it is simply easier to believe than not to believe-- believing anything else raises too many questions and uncomfortable answers. How does Eve being tempted first and sinning, then somehow being instrumental in Adam sinning, make any sense if we think in terms of a general evolution of men and women in which God simultaneously puts a human soul in all those who have evolved to a certain level? That conjures up visions of many humans, some of them sinning, and perhaps some of them staying obedient. Then what happens to their children? Are those born of sinless parents then born in sanctifying grace? Then, too, did anyone make it all the way to death without sinning, and wouldn’t they be entitled to immediately obtain a glorified body and attain to the beatific vision? There is no mention to support that, so one would be led to believe that all men and women sinned before dying. If that were true did all women sin first, and all men sin afterwards, as indicated in the text? How would this make any sense? And did all men and women sin by the very same sin, whatever it literally was? Or are we to believe that the original sin was really a conglomeration of original sins by different men, all of them collectively being Adam?

Lastly, not related to the previous line of reasoning, does not the Church declare a literal man, Adam, and a literal woman, Eve, by declaring their feast day December 24, or am I misconstruing this feast day?
I think what you see as a problem I see as a solution to a very delicate issue. You have touched upon a wonderfully undeveloped line of thinking, one of which I believe the Catholic Church may soon need to embrace.
Suppose there were a group of Humans(coming through the evolutionary process. given a newly created soul for each) and they walked in Paradise(Earth) in fellowship with God and all was Good.
Is this not what God did in Heaven with the Creation of the Angels, did He not create them all good? Did not the Father of Lies( “Bad Angel” ) and his followers rebel against God? And were they not banished from Heaven(Paradise). Adam and Eve did not have Children until after they sinned(according to the bible) therefore any offspring would not be an issue. God’s purposed was to make mankind to walk in peace , friendship with Him in Paradise. As in Most Angels did…why not the same on earth?
Those found sinless are taken by God into His eternal Paradise.Perhaps, like Abraham, Jacob,and all the good people that were Pre-Jesus had to wait for Jesus’s Resurrection, although I believe since these contemporaries of Adam and Eve were sinless and therefore without original sin were taken directly to Heaven Much Like Mary and perhaps Elijah. That’s right all the good taken out of this Earthly Paradise bought into the Heaven and the earth given over completely to Adam and Eve and their Heirs …US
That is why we will never find a Physical Paradise on Earth a Tree of Life or any signs of the Garden of Eden…because Sin has banished us and Only by the redeeming act if Jesus will we find OUR Paradise according to the will of God
 
I think what you see as a problem I see as a solution to a very delicate issue. You have touched upon a wonderfully undeveloped line of thinking, one of which I believe the Catholic Church may soon need to embrace.
Suppose there were a group of Humans(coming through the evolutionary process. given a newly created soul for each) and they walked in Paradise(Earth) in fellowship with God and all was Good.
Is this not what God did in Heaven with the Creation of the Angels, did He not create them all good? Did not the Father of Lies( “Bad Angel” ) and his followers rebel against God? And were they not banished from Heaven(Paradise). Adam and Eve did not have Children until after they sinned(according to the bible) therefore any offspring would not be an issue. God’s purposed was to make mankind to walk in peace , friendship with Him in Paradise. As in Most Angels did…why not the same on earth?
Those found sinless are taken by God into His eternal Paradise.Perhaps, like Abraham, Jacob,and all the good people that were Pre-Jesus had to wait for Jesus’s Resurrection, although I believe since these contemporaries of Adam and Eve were sinless and therefore without original sin were taken directly to Heaven Much Like Mary and perhaps Elijah. That’s right all the good taken out of this Earthly Paradise bought into the Heaven and the earth given over completely to Adam and Eve and their Heirs …US
That is why we will never find a Physical Paradise on Earth a Tree of Life or any signs of the Garden of Eden…because Sin has banished us and Only by the redeeming act if Jesus will we find OUR Paradise according to the will of God
I have heard that each angel is a species. If what is the nature, true of every human being that ever has and will exist, were one being, that being would be like one of the angels.
This human species is created matter and spirit. We are diverse and make our individual choices for or against God in time; for the angels it was instantaneous.
We had to begin somewhere and at some time. I would agree with JamesC that it makes more sense to see our beginning with two original human persons whose decision led to the unfolding of our history.
Asserting that it was a human group that was created has no basis in scripture; all it does is justify “evolution”. I am not going to be swayed from what I consider truth to make up for deficiencies in science.
 
I think what you see as a problem I see as a solution to a very delicate issue. You have touched upon a wonderfully undeveloped line of thinking, one of which I believe the Catholic Church may soon need to embrace."
According to personal research off Catholic Answers Forums, the hypothesis that the symbolic Adam represents a population was being discussed in 1969. Realistically, according to the date of Humani Generis, that speculation was presented in the 1940’s and probably earlier.

Obviously, the various speculations about *both *group human origin and group human nature are without merit since the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition did not revoke the teachings of St. Paul.

What some people see as a “solution” to a very delicate issue – logically involves the divinity of Jesus Christ
and human free will.

Human free will exercised by an “original group” presents the opportunity to result in multiple decisions about the transmission of human nature, yours and mine. That is, if there is an assumption that humans beget humans.

Of course, if there is not a single source of two, fully-human parents, how would we logically know what we, individuals are…
 
I have heard that each angel is a species. If what is the nature, true of every human being that ever has and will exist, were one being, that being would be like one of the angels.
This human species is created matter and spirit. We are diverse and make our individual choices for or against God in time; for the angels it was instantaneous.
We had to begin somewhere and at some time. I would agree with JamesC that it makes more sense to see our beginning with two original human persons whose decision led to the unfolding of our history.
Asserting that it was a human group that was created has no basis in scripture; all it does is justify “evolution”. I am not going to be swayed from what I consider truth to make up for deficiencies in science.
WOW Really ?? And the Earth is Flat, and The center of the Universe and Only Cathollcs are going to Heaven… I am So surprised, please look more deeply into this …start here magisreasonfaith.org/ask_spitzer.html I do not disrespect your opinion but would ask you help me open my eyes as wide as yours
Thank you
 
According to personal research off Catholic Answers Forums, the hypothesis that the symbolic Adam represents a population was being discussed in 1969. Realistically, according to the date of Humani Generis, that speculation was presented in the 1940’s and probably earlier.

Obviously, the various speculations about *both *group human origin and group human nature are without merit since the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition did not revoke the teachings of St. Paul.

What some people see as a “solution” to a very delicate issue – logically involves the divinity of Jesus Christ
and human free will.

Human free will exercised by an “original group” presents the opportunity to result in multiple decisions about the transmission of human nature, yours and mine. That is, if there is an assumption that humans beget humans.

Of course, if there is not a single source of two, fully-human parents, how would we logically know what we, individuals are…
I am not sure if you read my entire post, if not I wish you would and if you did, I wish you show it in it’s entirety so other may form their own opinion.
I simply Believe that God is such an Awesome God and since He has ALL eternity, I do not find any problem with evolution of Humans,as a matter of fact…I think it was imperative for us!
Imagine one day out of the blue…POOF…there you are…,what do you think>> you look around and see…er…you dont know…you just got there… Just the idea of thinking is new to you…you had NO CHANCE TO DEVELOP our human skills or adjust to our surroundings…\so what,God taught you to walk,eat…talk…come on…all I ask is you think about this…Put your self in Adam’s …or Eve’s place. GOD always does what is best for us. He did then as he does now. Show me anyway in existence where,“POOF there it is” is the answer. God works through the natural Causes and He was the First Cause
I think St Thomas Aquinas as well as St Augustine would agree if they knew what we know Today and the God Given logic they used to see God in the natural order of the world Please refer to leading Catholic Theologians and Scientists and see what they think,as well as recent POPES, Cardinals etc Look up Cardinal Peel and check out this Catholic website magisreasonfaith.org/ask_spitzer.html
Thank you for all your (name removed by moderator)ut
Tony
 
WOW Really ?? And the Earth is Flat, and The center of the Universe and Only Cathollcs are going to Heaven… I am So surprised, please look more deeply into this …start here magisreasonfaith.org/ask_spitzer.html I do not disrespect your opinion but would ask you help me open my eyes as wide as yours
Thank you
Looking at your provided link. magisreasonfaith.org/ask_spitzer.html

As you correctly suggested, all of us need to look deeply into this.

One reason, I wish to pursue a philosophical (logical) approach to the reality of Adam

is that many Catholic posts cannot explain the difference between the scientific realm of the material/physical decomposing anatomy and the spiritual world of an eternal, transcendent, Pure Spirit Creator without restrictions. Trying to discuss natural science with people who are not aware of the logistics of the scientific (inductive) method is …:sad_yes:

From the above link.
With respect to the point about evolution, “Humani Generis” allows Catholics to believe in natural evolutionary processes. This would allow for evolution on a large scale. However, “Humani Generis” is very careful to specify that the human soul is not a product of mere material evolution. Certain features of the human body may have evolved from other less developed species, but the human soul is not matter, and it therefore could not have arisen from a merely material process.

–skip–

So what does this mean about “Darwinian evolution”? If this term means pure evolution implying those human beings are merely material (and therefore devoid of a soul and embodiment which is influenced by a soul) then it would be inconsistent with Catholic teaching and also the biblical account. However, if it means something else, then that “something else” would have to be judged according to the Christian beliefs elucidated above.
 
Looking at your provided link. magisreasonfaith.org/ask_spitzer.html

As you correctly suggested, all of us need to look deeply into this.

One reason, I wish to pursue a philosophical (logical) approach to the reality of Adam

is that many Catholic posts cannot explain the difference between the scientific realm of the material/physical decomposing anatomy and the spiritual world of an eternal, transcendent, Pure Spirit Creator without restrictions. Trying to discuss natural science with people who are not aware of the logistics of the scientific (inductive) method is …:sad_yes:

From the above link.
With respect to the point about evolution, “Humani Generis” allows Catholics to believe in natural evolutionary processes. This would allow for evolution on a large scale. However, “Humani Generis” is very careful to specify that the human soul is not a product of mere material evolution. Certain features of the human body may have evolved from other less developed species, but the human soul is not matter, and it therefore could not have arisen from a merely material process.

–skip–

So what does this mean about “Darwinian evolution”? If this term means pure evolution implying those human beings are merely material (and therefore devoid of a soul and embodiment which is influenced by a soul) then it would be inconsistent with Catholic teaching and also the biblical account. However, if it means something else, then that “something else” would have to be judged according to the Christian beliefs elucidated above.
The Catholic Church does not in whole accept Darwinism evolution because it’s main tenet is random selection , survival of the fittest and even accidental mutation. Theist believe none of that. Theist believe God is the First Cause and everything is according to His Plan, including given the first newly created soul to a Person we call Adam, The Soul is the Spiritual life which will never be explained with natural causes,because it is transcendent from God to man…in this case POOF, there it is,because the soul comes from outside what we call the universe and not subject to natural laws. Isn’t God Awesome ???
 
WOW Really ?? And the Earth is Flat, and The center of the Universe and Only Cathollcs are going to Heaven… I am So surprised, please look more deeply into this …start here magisreasonfaith.org/ask_spitzer.html I do not disrespect your opinion but would ask you help me open my eyes as wide as yours
Thank you
As we are all aware, the earth appears flat because it is so large. Appearance, illusion and reality, very difficult concepts, given our emersion in it all.

It may sound ignorant, but actually the earth is at the centre of the universe, as is everything else according to science today.

Having a rational, spiritual soul, we basically cognitively structure the universe around ourselves as frames of reference. In physics, I understand that everything is relative; it is relative because we must insert our understanding into creation and see events centred around a particular point of view/scale of measurement. Physics is not my area of expertise, so I can’t speak much about it. I know more about the struggles of the faceless hero confronting life and its challenges.

But, if I may venture further into the enigma of our being both physical and spiritual being: consider us sitting in front of our monitors. It is far easier to describe than the obvious mystery and complexity of gazing into the beloved’s eyes.

So here we are at the monitor. We and it exist within a continuous physical reality. It includes events such as the release of photons from the screen, travelling through space to the retinal where chemical reactions ensue, followed by a cascade of events that include the travelling of action potentials down axons, releasing neurochemicals across synapses where dentrites meet. These “messages” travel through the midbrain to the occipital cortex and across areas of the brain involved in “decoding” the “information” (Again, all that is happening according to the model of neural physiology, are complex biochemical changes - no “mesages”, no “information” - just chemicals) so that we are able to understand what is on the page. All this, is what is happening physically speaking: no me, you, monitor, just physical events within this structure.

Because this is happening we are able to communicate. I have an understanding and these words will have some meaning for you.

We are now in the realm of mind.

Notice that this is real; this is happening. There is a reality to the experience that is a whole. Although we are sitting in the midst of infinite number of events within the totality of the universe, this experience is closed. It is happening as a finite now separate although a part of the eternal Now that encompasses all time (that is God’s mind). So you and I are one with our monitors in a finite sense as we are one with all creation. All this is where mind meets spirit. In this moment we exist as eternal beings. As eternal beings, acting with free will, we participate in God to create ourselves as part of His infinite creative moment. This doesn’t do justice to what is the spiritual world, since its nature is love and compassion. This spritual world, believe or not, contains a universe of beings that exist between this world and God, a world of angels and demons. I do recognize that this sounds crazy so I do not say such things except to a few people who understand what I am talking about and under the anonimity afforded by the forums.

Only those who are members of God’s church will be in heaven, beginning with Peter, the Catholic Church was given the responsibility of bringing all those people together to that end.
This is far too long-winded than I like and still seems to explain nothing.
 
I am not sure if you read my entire post, if not I wish you would and if you did, I wish you show it in it’s entirety so other may form their own opinion.
Thank you. I will repeat your post below

This is the way quoted posts are linked back to the original.

Originally Posted by BklynTony forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

Normally, when there is more than one “thought” in a post, I tend to reply to thoughts individually. In this case, a bit of background was, in my humble opinion, needed. I supplied the background in post 91 above.

Today, 7:13 am Post 89
BklynTony http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_khaki/user_online.gif
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Join Date: June 6, 2013
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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Adam & Logic
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesCaruso forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*I follow your reasoning and I agree with it. What especially stood out to me was “Christ’s literal obedience even unto death…” leads one to conclude “…that there were both a literal original sin and an original human in whom existed the whole human race ‘as one body of one man’.” *

*When I step back and ask myself why I believe there was a literal Adam and Eve I answer that it is simply easier to believe than not to believe-- believing anything else raises too many questions and uncomfortable answers. How does Eve being tempted first and sinning, then somehow being instrumental in Adam sinning, make any sense if we think in terms of a general evolution of men and women in which God simultaneously puts a human soul in all those who have evolved to a certain level? That conjures up visions of many humans, some of them sinning, and perhaps some of them staying obedient. Then what happens to their children? Are those born of sinless parents then born in sanctifying grace? Then, too, did anyone make it all the way to death without sinning, and wouldn’t they be entitled to immediately obtain a glorified body and attain to the beatific vision? There is no mention to support that, so one would be led to believe that all men and women sinned before dying. If that were true did all women sin first, and all men sin afterwards, as indicated in the text? How would this make any sense? And did all men and women sin by the very same sin, whatever it literally was? Or are we to believe that the original sin was really a conglomeration of original sins by different men, all of them collectively being Adam? *

Lastly, not related to the previous line of reasoning, does not the Church declare a literal man, Adam, and a literal woman, Eve, by declaring their feast day December 24, or am I misconstruing this feast day?
I think what you see as a problem I see as a solution to a very delicate issue. You have touched upon a wonderfully undeveloped line of thinking, one of which I believe the Catholic Church may soon need to embrace.
Suppose there were a group of Humans(coming through the evolutionary process. given a newly created soul for each) and they walked in Paradise(Earth) in fellowship with God and all was Good.
Is this not what God did in Heaven with the Creation of the Angels, did He not create them all good? Did not the Father of Lies( “Bad Angel” ) and his followers rebel against God? And were they not banished from Heaven(Paradise). Adam and Eve did not have Children until after they sinned(according to the bible) therefore any offspring would not be an issue. God’s purposed was to make mankind to walk in peace , friendship with Him in Paradise. As in Most Angels did…why not the same on earth?
Those found sinless are taken by God into His eternal Paradise.Perhaps, like Abraham, Jacob,and all the good people that were Pre-Jesus had to wait for Jesus’s Resurrection, although I believe since these contemporaries of Adam and Eve were sinless and therefore without original sin were taken directly to Heaven Much Like Mary and perhaps Elijah. That’s right all the good taken out of this Earthly Paradise bought into the Heaven and the earth given over completely to Adam and Eve and their Heirs …US
That is why we will never find a Physical Paradise on Earth a Tree of Life or any signs of the Garden of Eden…because Sin has banished us and Only by the redeeming act if Jesus will we find OUR Paradise according to the will of God
 
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