Adam & Logic

[grannymh]

Gen 3:15 tells about how jesus will overcome satan. But then in Gen 3:19 “for dust you are and to dust you shall return.” so didn’t Adam and Eve just return to dust, therefore their bodies couldn’t be resurrected?

Going back and forth with Genesis 3: 19, I keep returning to the fact that Adam and Eve’s nature is essentially our nature which is a union of both the material world and spiritual world. This is a key sentence from CCC 1008. “Even though man’s nature is mortal, God had destined him not to die.”
Link to CCC 1008 scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1008.htm
Paragraphs above and below CCC 1008 are also valuable.

As long as Adam remained in divine intimacy, he would be free from suffering and material death. (CCC 374-376) It was Adam’s Original Sin which brought human death into the world. (CCC 1008, Romans 5: 12-21) The specified verse Genesis 3: 19 is one of the references for these last sentences in CCC 400.

“Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.”
​

In practice, Genesis 3: 19 invokes many thoughts and many symbolisms.
(see Aloysium’s post 273 & Granny’s post 272). While God is speaking directly to the individual first human parent, He is also speaking to us, reminding us that we are mortal and we need to factor that in when we make serious decisions as to the way we live our lives, in divine intimacy with God or not.

Adam and Eve died like we all do. Being true humans like us, they will be part of the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

In the specific verse Genesis 3: 19, the translation of *material/physical *dust, dirt, clay, ground refer symbolically to our material/physical blood and guts. We cannot deny the fact that our material anatomies decompose in one way or another returning to the earth when our spiritual soul departs.

A companion passage is Psalm 103: 11-18. And naturally, Psalm 23 should be engraved on our forehead.

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[grannymh]

Going back and forth with Genesis 3: 19, I keep returning to the fact that Adam and Eve’s nature is essentially our nature which is a union of both the material world and spiritual world. This is a key sentence from CCC 1008. “Even though man’s nature is mortal, God had destined him not to die.”
Link to CCC 1008 scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1008.htm
Paragraphs above and below CCC 1008 are also valuable.

As long as Adam remained in divine intimacy, he would be free from suffering and material death. (CCC 374-376) It was Adam’s Original Sin which brought human death into the world. (CCC 1008, Romans 5: 12-21) The specified verse Genesis 3: 19 is one of the references for these last sentences in CCC 400.

“Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.”
​

The first principle of the scientific method is to observe without prejudice.

With that in mind, how was the writer of the first three chapters of Genesis observing the truth in the culture which surrounded him?

That writer obviously had pride in his own people who were in various kinds of communication with the Almighty God. The subsequent stories about the adventures of his ancestors, including Cain and Abel, certainly demonstrated this thread’s second axiom “God as Creator interacts with humans.”
Why wouldn’t this writer’s logical pride assign the original gift of divine intimacy to all his people?
Why didn’t this writer start his tale in an *historic *setting of his ancestral relatives and friends which would be, in the writer’s estimation, the premier group of humans?

It is reasonable to assume that this Genesis writer was aware of various stories and pieces of stories about human origin. Why did the writer pick the story that featured only one man and his spouse, a man who freely refused to remain in divine intimacy with God? Isn’t that a bad start for the premier group of humans?

It seems to me that the only reasonable explanation for what that writer wrote is that he knew the truth which had been handed down from the very beginning of human history. He observed the truth even when it was not flattering to his people. And he wrote the truth that both bad and good people owe their existence to one, sole, first human man and his spouse. While the language of Genesis 3: 9-19 is difficult, its direction is clearly to one man and one woman. The future bad of life and the future good of life was told to two first individuals Adam and Eve who would be fruitful so that their descendants would multiply. Genesis 1: 28.

This single parenthood was the truth that even though there were both Jews and Pagans, all people were people created by the one God. The* good* of life which is Genesis 3: 15, the first announcement of a future Messiah, applied to all people because in truth, despite the logic of personal pride, the writer correctly pictured the origin of humanity as being two people biblically known as Adam and Eve.

Because the Genesis writer chose difficult truth over the pressure to elevate his people in the sight of others, it can be considered reasonable to accept Adam and Eve as the truthful origin of our humanity.

The writer of the first three chapters of Genesis observed the truth without prejudice.

 

[wmw]

Going back and forth with Genesis 3: 19, I keep returning to the fact that Adam and Eve’s nature is essentially our nature which is a union of both the material world and spiritual world. This is a key sentence from CCC 1008. “Even though man’s nature is mortal, God had destined him not to die.”
Link to CCC 1008 scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1008.htm
Paragraphs above and below CCC 1008 are also valuable.

As long as Adam remained in divine intimacy, he would be free from suffering and material death. (CCC 374-376) It was Adam’s Original Sin which brought human death into the world. (CCC 1008, Romans 5: 12-21) The specified verse Genesis 3: 19 is one of the references for these last sentences in CCC 400.

“Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.”
​

In practice, Genesis 3: 19 invokes many thoughts and many symbolisms.
(see Aloysium’s post 273 & Granny’s post 272). While God is speaking directly to the individual first human parent, He is also speaking to us, reminding us that we are mortal and we need to factor that in when we make serious decisions as to the way we live our lives, in divine intimacy with God or not.

Adam and Eve died like we all do. Being true humans like us, they will be part of the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

In the specific verse Genesis 3: 19, the translation of *material/physical *dust, dirt, clay, ground refer symbolically to our material/physical blood and guts. We cannot deny the fact that our material anatomies decompose in one way or another returning to the earth when our spiritual soul departs.

A companion passage is Psalm 103: 11-18. And naturally, Psalm 23 should be engraved on our forehead.

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

I don’t have time to dive into this in the CCC as I’d like, but shooting from the hip. I’d like to say that we are only dust if we are spiritually dead. I’d like to explore the idea that the death that original sin caused Adam was more importantly the death of the soul, the second death of eternal hell which did happen that very day rather that the 900+ years that Adam physically lived, though he likely repented and from which if so was spiritually resurrected.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I don’t have time to dive into this in the CCC as I’d like, but shooting from the hip. I’d like to say that we are only dust if we are spiritually dead. I’d like to explore the idea that the death that original sin caused Adam was more importantly the death of the soul, the second death of eternal hell which did happen that very day rather that the 900+ years that Adam physically lived, though he likely repented and from which if so was spiritually resurrected.

How many people accept a literal view that Adam lived for 900 or more years?

 

[wmw]

CCC 403 - the bold is my addition:

Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, **a sin which is the “death of the soul.”**291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

 

[wmw]

Of course this is a Both/And situation that all human physical death and “the death of the soul” was the result of Original Sin. In speaking of Baptism we know that it remits only the “death of the soul.” Therefore, the teaching of the Church, when it speaks in scripture or other documents that it is more often speaking of being saved from spiritual death.

CCC 400 - the bold is my addition:

The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, **creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.”**284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: **man will "return to the ground,"285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.**286

In conclusion the statement of God “you are dust” may indicate this new condition of a sinful man named Adam who with a dead soul is nothing but dust and his body shall return to dust. We inherit this condition of being born with dead souls and decaying bodies. The soul can be resurrected in the Baptism of the Holy Trinity and our bodies await the resurrection of the last day.

 

[simpleas]

How many people accept a literal view that Adam lived for 900 or more years?

I try to keep an open mind, but it may have been possible that he lived a very long life, not sure how they counted the hours/days/months/years that long ago to give an actual life span. (maybe someone here can answer that?)

 

[simpleas]

Of course this is a Both/And situation that all human physical death and “the death of the soul” was the result of Original Sin. In speaking of Baptism we know that it remits only the “death of the soul.” Therefore, the teaching of the Church, when it speaks in scripture or other documents that it is more often speaking of being saved from spiritual death.

CCC 400 - the bold is my addition:

In conclusion the statement of God “you are dust” may indicate this new condition of a sinful man named Adam who with a dead soul is nothing but dust and his body shall return to dust. We inherit this condition of being born with dead souls and decaying bodies. The soul can be resurrected in the Baptism of the Holy Trinity and our bodies await the resurrection of the last day.

I like to think that some day (hopefully) I will be ressurrected body and soul with all who believed in our creator, in a world were we will live as it was all meant to be in the beginning. But I sometimes think we are told that our souls are more important than our bodies, so why would we need our bodies back in the next life?

 

[Aloysium]

How many people accept a literal view that Adam lived for 900 or more years?

I think it sounds weird to most people, but that has nothing to do with its truth.

It may be a worthwhile exercise to examine why one would discount this as a possiblity. Worthwhile because it would reveal one’s assumptions, the bases of how one believes the cosmos is structured. Assume that it is true and see how that changes your view of the world. The result can be very interesting, but also very scary; the depths of our ignorance are abysmal.

BTW: Clrearly people living to such old ages would explain how the world was populated. It was not uncommon in the gereration before mine to have families with a dozen kids, who would have been born in a span of 30 years. So multiply 13 by 30. With half of those being female, giving rise to another 400, things get huge very fast. I’m not saying it did happen that way, but I also cannot say it did not. Actually, does it matter?

 

[wmw]

I don’t think there are any Church dotrines based on the final age of Adam. We are free to believe or not the literal number. There is no real point in dividing the Christian community over it, except athists and demons love to see the discord it might cause.

 

[wmw]

I like to think that some day (hopefully) I will be ressurrected body and soul with all who believed in our creator, in a world were we will live as it was all meant to be in the beginning. But I sometimes think we are told that our souls are more important than our bodies, so why would we need our bodies back in the next life?

The promise of Jesus’ Word is that we are to be His brother and friend. The Angels are not said to have this possibility. Jesus becoming flesh transforms the flesh into the first pure man just as he transforms the waters of Baptism in being Baptized. We underestimate matter, the physical, like a boy with a criminal father underestimates the good and proper relationship of father and son.

The New Heaven and Earth is the restoration of Eden, but more; for God takes all evil and converts it by grace into a greater good than was Eden. God makes the impossible the new reality. Genesis states the impossible and the savior makes it happen that man will have the knowledge of good and evil and eat of the tree of life, but rather than in the corruption of sin the righteous will be restored by Christ and purged in the fire of purgatory to purity and live as a brother with Jesus.

Further whys are to be explored and guessed upon, at our leisure, but general Teaching doesn’t or hasn’t gone much further than this. Yet I’ll add a bit of speculation:

As a spirit in heaven a person is like half a man, only the spirit half of the true duality of matter and spirit that we were fully made to be. Some speculate that God gives us a feeling or spiritually simulated body to keep us from going into shock or its spiritual equivalent.

 

[simpleas]

I never took much notice of the below when reading genesis before now, is there some significance in describing the garden in this detail?

Thanks

[2:10] A river flows out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it divides and becomes four branches.
[2:11] The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one that flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
[2:12] and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
[2:13] The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one that flows around the whole land of Cush.

 

[grannymh]

I never took much notice of the below when reading genesis before now, is there some significance in describing the garden in this detail?

Thanks

[2:10] A river flows out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it divides and becomes four branches.
[2:11] The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one that flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
[2:12] and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
[2:13] The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one that flows around the whole land of Cush.

I, too, never paid much attention to this garden description…until I started to explore the Divine Revelation which the writer of the first three chapters of Genesis was logically trying to describe.

Obviously, this Genesis writer knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve were the sole parents of humanity. He also knew that Adam committed an original sin which shattered humanity’s intimate relationship with God, our Creator. The natural consequence was banishment but from where.

Hopefully, you can follow this train of thought, if not…

God was real, according to Jewish teaching. This is our axiom 1. “God as Creator exists”. Jewish history demonstrated that a real God was part of life. Our axiom 2. expands on that because we have the benefit of hindsight. Axiom 2 is “God as Creator interacts with humans.”

Humans, by nature, were created as an unique unification of spiritual soul and material body. Humans had to eat to live; therefore, the first two humans had to live where there was food. Therefore, the writer described in detail a place on earth which had abundant food. Voila! the Garden of Eden. Time and climate changes would have affected this Garden, but that does not change the reality of the original Garden. The important message is that two real humans lived in a material environment because they had to eat. The reverse is that a materially described location gives credibility to two real hungry humans.

Catholicism continues the exploration of the “Garden” by looking at it as an appropriate sign of Adam’s familiarity with his Creator. (CCC 378 and 396). Regarding “familiarity” with God, this is like what we have by the name of Sanctifying Grace. However, Adam’s familiarity and our familiarity is not the same as being in heaven in the presences of the Beatific Vision.

On its own, the concept of the Garden of Eden’s existence would not be sufficient to demonstrate the existence of our two loving first parents. But when that garden concept is added to all the other Genesis instances where God is described as interacting with only two individuals, synergy comes into play.

 

[simpleas]

I, too, never paid much attention to this garden description…until I started to explore the Divine Revelation which the writer of the first three chapters of Genesis was logically trying to describe.

Obviously, this Genesis writer knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve were the sole parents of humanity. He also knew that Adam committed an original sin which shattered humanity’s intimate relationship with God, our Creator. The natural consequence was banishment but from where.

Hopefully, you can follow this train of thought, if not…

God was real, according to Jewish teaching. This is our axiom 1. “God as Creator exists”. Jewish history demonstrated that a real God was part of life. Our axiom 2. expands on that because we have the benefit of hindsight. Axiom 2 is “God as Creator interacts with humans.”

Humans, by nature, were created as an unique unification of spiritual soul and material body. Humans had to eat to live; therefore, the first two humans had to live where there was food. Therefore, the writer described in detail a place on earth which had abundant food. Voila! the Garden of Eden. Time and climate changes would have affected this Garden, but that does not change the reality of the original Garden. The important message is that two real humans lived in a material environment because they had to eat. The reverse is that a materially described location gives credibility to two real hungry humans.

Catholicism continues the exploration of the “Garden” by looking at it as an appropriate sign of Adam’s familiarity with his Creator. (CCC 378 and 396). Regarding “familiarity” with God, this is like what we have by the name of Sanctifying Grace. However, Adam’s familiarity and our familiarity is not the same as being in heaven in the presences of the Beatific Vision.

On its own, the concept of the Garden of Eden’s existence would not be sufficient to demonstrate the existence of our two loving first parents. But when that garden concept is added to all the other Genesis instances where God is described as interacting with only two individuals, synergy comes into play.

Thank you, you are so kind, I ask a question and you always answer

I do follow what you are saying, although I was asking why we needed to know about gold being good, Onyx stone and Bdellium (didn’t have a clue what these were before I googled them! ref below, but you may already know)
As you say about Adam and Eve needing to eat, hence we told about Plants/trees/fruit good to eat, funny there is no mention of what to drink! Ha.
But of course we know they would have drank water, but not from the sea! So we hear about the rivers in this chapter.
As for Onyx stone, Bdellium and gold being mentioned, would this be as a reference to explain where they started making item’s like bowls, jugs etc.

I maybe wrong, but i can’t think of any other explaination for the description’s in this chapter.

Onyx is a banded variety of chalcedony. The colors of its bands range from white to almost every color (save some shades, such as purple or blue). Commonly, specimens of onyx contain bands of black and/or white.

Bdellium (dĕl’ē-əm) (Hebrew bedolach), also bdellion, is an aromatic gum like myrrh that is exuded from a tree.

 

[simpleas]

The promise of Jesus’ Word is that we are to be His brother and friend. The Angels are not said to have this possibility. Jesus becoming flesh transforms the flesh into the first pure man just as he transforms the waters of Baptism in being Baptized. We underestimate matter, the physical, like a boy with a criminal father underestimates the good and proper relationship of father and son.

The New Heaven and Earth is the restoration of Eden, but more; for God takes all evil and converts it by grace into a greater good than was Eden. God makes the impossible the new reality. Genesis states the impossible and the savior makes it happen that man will have the knowledge of good and evil and eat of the tree of life, but rather than in the corruption of sin the righteous will be restored by Christ and purged in the fire of purgatory to purity and live as a brother with Jesus.

Further whys are to be explored and guessed upon, at our leisure, but general Teaching doesn’t or hasn’t gone much further than this. Yet I’ll add a bit of speculation:

As a spirit in heaven a person is like half a man, only the spirit half of the true duality of matter and spirit that we were fully made to be. Some speculate that God gives us a feeling or spiritually simulated body to keep us from going into shock or its spiritual equivalent.

Thanks for that.
I always imagine something like, when we die, our soul leaves the body. As we are souls, then we will see what our soul looks like, therefore we wouldn’t need our bodies.
Guess we’ll find out in time.

 

[grannymh]

Thank you, you are so kind, I ask a question and you always answer

I do follow what you are saying, although I was asking why we needed to know about gold being good, Onyx stone and Bdellium (didn’t have a clue what these were before I googled them! ref below, but you may already know)
As you say about Adam and Eve needing to eat, hence we told about Plants/trees/fruit good to eat, funny there is no mention of what to drink! Ha.

Ha, yourself. I can think of all kinds of drinks which come from plants and fruits. One special drink was made in my Grandmother’s cellar.

That is a great observation about where the first bowls and jugs would be made. (Post 289) I wonder if the early generations descending from Adam and Eve used gold as a way to barter for other necessities. Or maybe the beauty of gold items gave them comfort in their difficult existence. Or maybe the beauty of all nature, reminded them of the beauty of God figuratively speaking. Imagine Adam and Eve as artists! With a golden jug in their hand!

Imagine the first chapter of Genesis shouting at us to see the same beauty of the stars which Adam and Eve witnessed. The non-technical account of our universe in the first verses of Genesis does not alter beauty. While Original Sin is plain awful; the God we seek is total good. He continues to call us to share in His life here on earth and later in heaven. We need to open our eyes and soften our hard hearts.

“Scottish Folds reflect a part of God’s love and pass that love along to us if we are blessed enough to see God’s reflection in a simple cat.” from a post by Little Soldier

 

[wmw]

Thanks for that.
I always imagine something like, when we die, our soul leaves the body. As we are souls, then we will see what our soul looks like, therefore we wouldn’t need our bodies.
Guess we’ll find out in time.

This is a very sad ending in this mini-topic, and I don’t want to accuse you and make you mad, but I am quite perplexed on your “we’ll see” attitude, because I think you understand that this isn’t just our saying so, but the revelation of God’s truth to mankind. Yet, it only makes sense that your not understanding that; so, you may need to digest this further; besides, I can hardly hope you will change all your thinking in the next text you write. Let, it be in His time then with the help of our prayers.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks for that.
I always imagine something like, when we die, our soul leaves the body. As we are souls, then we will see what our soul looks like, therefore we wouldn’t need our bodies.
Guess we’ll find out in time.

Reading this again, I find something that is not quite accurate. It is the phrase “as we are souls”. We are a spiritual being because of our spiritual soul; yet, we are still an unique unification of both material anatomy and spiritual soul. This is why we are peerless in our created environment. Our material body dies when our soul leaves our body, but this is only a temporary separation. Belief in the resurrection of our body and the life of the world to come is what we profess when we proclaim our basic creed during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

It is our total self, both body and soul, which give glory to the creative power of our God. It is our total self, spirit and matter united, who will eventually see God as He is. The simple reason is that God created us and we will return to God in the way He created us.

 

[grannymh]

Here is a fast thought.

I was trying to quote St. Paul about our resurrection. I can remember the verse that is something like “Death, where is your sting.” Christ is victorious over death and so will we because…

It is the because which startled me because whenever St. Paul teaches about Christ and life, there is an underlying assumption that he is speaking to all people present and future, Greek and slave etc. St. Paul knows that all people will rise from the dead because Christ’s obedience was for all people because all people descended from the one disobedient Adam. The Sermon on the Mount takes in all future humanity rightly so because all humanity originated with Adam and Eve. This is plainly logical.

There is an unbreakable unity within humanity. The reality of Adam and Eve teaches us that all humans are truly brethren. (CCC 361 and 1939) This law of solidarity was sealed when Jesus Christ offered Himself in redemption for Original Sin.

 

[simpleas]

Ha, yourself. I can think of all kinds of drinks which come from plants and fruits. One special drink was made in my Grandmother’s cellar.

That is a great observation about where the first bowls and jugs would be made. (Post 289) I wonder if the early generations descending from Adam and Eve used gold as a way to barter for other necessities. Or maybe the beauty of gold items gave them comfort in their difficult existence. Or maybe the beauty of all nature, reminded them of the beauty of God figuratively speaking. Imagine Adam and Eve as artists! With a golden jug in their hand!

Imagine the first chapter of Genesis shouting at us to see the same beauty of the stars which Adam and Eve witnessed. The non-technical account of our universe in the first verses of Genesis does not alter beauty. While Original Sin is plain awful; the God we seek is total good. He continues to call us to share in His life here on earth and later in heaven. We need to open our eyes and soften our hard hearts.

“Scottish Folds reflect a part of God’s love and pass that love along to us if we are blessed enough to see God’s reflection in a simple cat.” from a post by Little Soldier

You got me on the plant/fruit for liquid drink…missed that! Mmm wonder what your grandmother made?

Yeah maybe the gold they refer to is the gold that was used to make the golden cow that people preferred to worship instead of God…

Like the quote by Little soldier, I see God’s reflection, beauty, and peace in my two dogs, and other pets.