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1AugustSon7
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I think a Pope is controversy.I understand that our Pope tends to stir up controversy.
I think a Pope is controversy.I understand that our Pope tends to stir up controversy.
There is always a difficulty in using the word sin(s) in reference to Christ. Technically, there is a strong distinct difference between “become the sinner for us, to liberate us” and “becoming the sin.” It is the difference between assuming human nature per se, because the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man” and absorbing the actual action of Adam’s Original Sin so that Jesus becomes, in a sense, true sin instead of true man. (CCC 404 & 470) There may be other ways of describing this, but at the moment I am brain dead.Actually, I was trying out an idea that was stated in Francis’ homily at Mass Saturday June 15. There were serious problems with the english translation that were even reproduced on Catholic sites. Having an understanding of Italian, I read that version and he states something to the effect that:
One translation I found: “What is reconciliation? Taking one from this side, taking another one for that side and uniting them: no, that’s part of it but it’s not it … True reconciliation means that God in Christ took on our sins and He became the sinner for us. When we go to confession, for example, it isn’t that we say our sin and God forgives us. No, not that! We look for Jesus Christ and say: ‘This is yours, and I will not sin again’. And Jesus likes that!, because it was his mission: to become the sinner for us, to liberate us.”
My translation: “So what is reconciliation? Uniting one side with the other; this is only part of it. True reconciliation is God, in Christ, taking onto Himself our sins, becoming the sin. And when we confess, for example, it is not that we tell our sins and God forgives us. It is not that. We find Jesus Christ and we say to Him, 'This is yours, I give you my sin, You become sin again” (as was done to you on the cross). And He wants that, because it was His mission; becoming sin for us, to free us."
I understand that our Pope tends to stir up controversy.
This use of language of “becoming our sin” I take as a short hand for “Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned” … “he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”” (see the quote box below for the context of these excerpts from the CCC).Actually, I was trying out an idea that was stated in Francis’ homily at Mass Saturday June 15. There were serious problems with the english translation that were even reproduced on Catholic sites. Having an understanding of Italian, I read that version and he states something to the effect that:
One translation I found: “What is reconciliation? Taking one from this side, taking another one for that side and uniting them: no, that’s part of it but it’s not it … True reconciliation means that God in Christ took on our sins and He became the sinner for us. When we go to confession, for example, it isn’t that we say our sin and God forgives us. No, not that! We look for Jesus Christ and say: ‘This is yours, and I will not sin again’. And Jesus likes that!, because it was his mission: to become the sinner for us, to liberate us.”
My translation: “So what is reconciliation? Uniting one side with the other; this is only part of it. True reconciliation is God, in Christ, taking onto Himself our sins, becoming the sin. And when we confess, for example, it is not that we tell our sins and God forgives us. It is not that. We find Jesus Christ and we say to Him, 'This is yours, I give you my sin, You become sin again” (as was done to you on the cross). And He wants that, because it was His mission; becoming sin for us, to free us."
I understand that our Pope tends to stir up controversy.
602***** Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers… with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.”402 Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”404 (400, 519)
603***** Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.405 But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”407 (2572)
Wouldn’t jesus’ nature been that of Adam before the fall? He would look like a normal human male, but very different in his nature due to him being free from sin?The logical principles so far are:
Post 1 has the stipulation that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.
- God as Creator exists.
- God as Creator interacts with humans.
From the position of the Catholic Church, the greatest interaction of our Creator with us is Jesus Christ, True God and True Man.
So my very silly question is – which human nature did Jesus Christ assume? The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 470, is very clear that “assumed” human nature is the correct terminology. In other words, Christ did not absorb the human condition of the contracted state of Original Sin. Christ is like us in all things except sin.
Could there be various kinds of human nature? Our universe is full of material beings which have expanded into different personalities and purposes; for example, look at the different kinds of dogs. Those cute little lap dogs, as a normal course of life, do not herd sheep or rescue people in snow storms. While a St. Bernard dog is a great asset, having one go to sleep on our lap is not on the top of our list of fun things to do.
Obviously, our observation tells us that there is only one kind of human nature. Even with our physical and mental differences, there is unity to humankind. Genesis 2: 18 and following, confirms that human nature is totally unique and different from all other species. This is emphasized in the following verses which confirm that Eve is the same human nature as Adam. (CCC 369-371) Note: CCC 370 is in smaller print --refer to CCC 20-21 for an explanation of this usage.
We look at the various human races; yet, there is only one humanity. CCC 360 explains: “Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity…” This common origin is unique in that it was necessary that only two true humans could be founders of a species which has both a decomposing anatomy *and *a God-created spiritual soul. Living material-only beings are subject to the laws of material creation which include basic changes for good or bad. They have no need for Divine Jesus Christ because they are, by definition, non-spiritual, that is, they are not in the image of God. (CCC 356-357)
The material principle of human nature comes from what? From parents who generate the unique natural body which is receptive to a spiritual soul. Because human parents are totally unique in their spiritual (soul) difference
from other species, they had to first come from a species totally unique from other species. To obtain *total *uniqueness there could only be two founders.
Think deeply about what you just said.Wouldn’t jesus’ nature been that of Adam before the fall? He would look like a normal human male, but very different in his nature due to him being free from sin?
Thats my tiny attempt at answering this…ha![]()
OkThink deeply about what you just said.
The above is the foundational proposition in the opening post.In my humble opinion, it is logical, given the human nature that you and I possess, that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.
Source:* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*.
Because the Catholic Church holds that a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions (simplified description) does in fact exist–the presupposition for this thread is God as Creator exists.
Why origin? The better question would be – Can logical also be practical?“Putting together all these points, we can safely say
3. God interacted with humanity at its origin.”
Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.Why origin? The better question would be – Can logical also be practical?
Since Catholicism accepts the truth that human nature is an unique unification of both the spiritual and material worlds (CCC, 355; CCC, 362-366) and therefore,
humans are given the spiritual free will to choose a specific action – wouldn’t it be more practical to steer the course of human history from one specific historical point?
Since Catholicism accepts the reality of Original Sin – would it really be practical for it to occur after the historical birth of Jesus Christ? Even if Original Sin occurred 4,000 years before Christ began His preaching career – practically speaking, which person could claim that he, alone, committed the one and only Original Sin? And, Lord save us from such irrational thoughts, what would happen if Original Sin was committed after Christ’s Resurrection?
In any scenario – practically speaking, how would we know if Original Sin had any effect on us if it is merely a flip of the coin at any point in human history?
Our God is hidden. That is obvious. Even in the Garden, man’s relationship with his Creator would grow along with his understanding of Him. That is how humanity rolls, we learn and share our knowledge.Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.
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A Second Chance for each person belonging to the human species!Our God is hidden. That is obvious. Even in the Garden, man’s relationship with his Creator would grow along with his understanding of Him. That is how humanity rolls, we learn and share our knowledge.
If your question is, “Why has He made Himself known to us in a limited fashion?” You will find that the answer lies in the fact that we exist as an “us”, a church, one humanity. We are meant to love and share with one another; that is how we come to Him.
The real question is, “Why did He make Himself a man for our salvation?” Why did He not leave us to our ignorance, insatiable cravings, and what would otherwise be hopeless suffering? Fallen angels had no second chance. You may believe that this is the nature of our condition. It isn’t.
One very good thing about my bringing up “the whole logical practical problem” is that you ask essential questions. Aloysium, in post 326, also asked essential questions to which I replied in post 327. For both of you :flowers: Thank you.Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.
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Christ left the Apostles, His church, us, to participate in the salvation by giving it our voice, feet, hands etc. God wants us to be apart of the salvation, but the flesh is weak, “can not you stay awake to pray one hour?”. The mission he calls us to is to the whole world.Originally Posted by StrawberryJam View Post
Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.
God interacts with humanity from the beginning to the End. He is the Alpha and the Omega
- God interacted with humanity at its origin.
Christ left the Apostles, His church, us, to participate in the salvation by giving it our voice, feet, hands etc. God wants us to be apart of the salvation, but the flesh is weak, “can not you stay awake to pray one hour?”. The mission he calls us to is to the whole world.
- God interacted with humanity at its origin.
You read my mind…and you are still standing!God interacts with humanity from the beginning to the End. He is the Alpha and the Omega