Adam & Logic

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Actually, I was trying out an idea that was stated in Francis’ homily at Mass Saturday June 15. There were serious problems with the english translation that were even reproduced on Catholic sites. Having an understanding of Italian, I read that version and he states something to the effect that:

One translation I found: “What is reconciliation? Taking one from this side, taking another one for that side and uniting them: no, that’s part of it but it’s not it … True reconciliation means that God in Christ took on our sins and He became the sinner for us. When we go to confession, for example, it isn’t that we say our sin and God forgives us. No, not that! We look for Jesus Christ and say: ‘This is yours, and I will not sin again’. And Jesus likes that!, because it was his mission: to become the sinner for us, to liberate us.”

My translation: “So what is reconciliation? Uniting one side with the other; this is only part of it. True reconciliation is God, in Christ, taking onto Himself our sins, becoming the sin. And when we confess, for example, it is not that we tell our sins and God forgives us. It is not that. We find Jesus Christ and we say to Him, 'This is yours, I give you my sin, You become sin again” (as was done to you on the cross). And He wants that, because it was His mission; becoming sin for us, to free us."

I understand that our Pope tends to stir up controversy.
There is always a difficulty in using the word sin(s) in reference to Christ. Technically, there is a strong distinct difference between “become the sinner for us, to liberate us” and “becoming the sin.” It is the difference between assuming human nature per se, because the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man” and absorbing the actual action of Adam’s Original Sin so that Jesus becomes, in a sense, true sin instead of true man. (CCC 404 & 470) There may be other ways of describing this, but at the moment I am brain dead. :o
 
Actually, I was trying out an idea that was stated in Francis’ homily at Mass Saturday June 15. There were serious problems with the english translation that were even reproduced on Catholic sites. Having an understanding of Italian, I read that version and he states something to the effect that:

One translation I found: “What is reconciliation? Taking one from this side, taking another one for that side and uniting them: no, that’s part of it but it’s not it … True reconciliation means that God in Christ took on our sins and He became the sinner for us. When we go to confession, for example, it isn’t that we say our sin and God forgives us. No, not that! We look for Jesus Christ and say: ‘This is yours, and I will not sin again’. And Jesus likes that!, because it was his mission: to become the sinner for us, to liberate us.”

My translation: “So what is reconciliation? Uniting one side with the other; this is only part of it. True reconciliation is God, in Christ, taking onto Himself our sins, becoming the sin. And when we confess, for example, it is not that we tell our sins and God forgives us. It is not that. We find Jesus Christ and we say to Him, 'This is yours, I give you my sin, You become sin again” (as was done to you on the cross). And He wants that, because it was His mission; becoming sin for us, to free us."

I understand that our Pope tends to stir up controversy.
This use of language of “becoming our sin” I take as a short hand for “Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned” … “he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”” (see the quote box below for the context of these excerpts from the CCC).

Other than He is capable of this by being devine and having devine Love for each one of us the how of the spiritual economy is only describable as “taking upon Himself our sins”, “assumed our sin”, and “a ransom for all” otherwise it remains a mystery that none of these nor even the sum of these totally expresses. It’s always going to be controversial to over use any one of these or “becoming our sin” unless the listener takes it as a way to express the inexpressable.
602***** Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers… with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.”402 Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”404 (400, 519)
603***** Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.405 But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”407 (2572)
 
The logical principles so far are:
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans.
Post 1 has the stipulation that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church. 🙂

From the position of the Catholic Church, the greatest interaction of our Creator with us is Jesus Christ, True God and True Man.

So my very silly question is – which human nature did Jesus Christ assume? The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 470, is very clear that “assumed” human nature is the correct terminology. In other words, Christ did not absorb the human condition of the contracted state of Original Sin. Christ is like us in all things except sin.

Could there be various kinds of human nature? Our universe is full of material beings which have expanded into different personalities and purposes; for example, look at the different kinds of dogs. Those cute little lap dogs, as a normal course of life, do not herd sheep or rescue people in snow storms. While a St. Bernard dog is a great asset, having one go to sleep on our lap is not on the top of our list of fun things to do.

Obviously, our observation tells us that there is only one kind of human nature. Even with our physical and mental differences, there is unity to humankind. Genesis 2: 18 and following, confirms that human nature is totally unique and different from all other species. This is emphasized in the following verses which confirm that Eve is the same human nature as Adam. (CCC 369-371) Note: CCC 370 is in smaller print --refer to CCC 20-21 for an explanation of this usage.

We look at the various human races; yet, there is only one humanity. CCC 360 explains: “Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity…” This common origin is unique in that it was necessary that only two true humans could be founders of a species which has both a decomposing anatomy *and *a God-created spiritual soul. Living material-only beings are subject to the laws of material creation which include basic changes for good or bad. They have no need for Divine Jesus Christ because they are, by definition, non-spiritual, that is, they are not in the image of God. (CCC 356-357)

The material principle of human nature comes from what? From parents who generate the unique natural body which is receptive to a spiritual soul. Because human parents are totally unique in their spiritual (soul) difference
from other species, they had to first come from a species totally unique from other species. To obtain *total *uniqueness there could only be two founders.
Wouldn’t jesus’ nature been that of Adam before the fall? He would look like a normal human male, but very different in his nature due to him being free from sin?
Thats my tiny attempt at answering this…ha 😉
 
Wouldn’t jesus’ nature been that of Adam before the fall? He would look like a normal human male, but very different in his nature due to him being free from sin?
Thats my tiny attempt at answering this…ha 😉
Think deeply about what you just said.
 
Continuing from post 313.

The logical principles so far are:
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans.
It is reasonable that God as Creator would create His creation in the optimum state of goodness. It is also reasonable to assume that the optimum state of goodness would be present at the beginning of human history. At the beginning of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed professed during the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, there is the clear statement that God is maker of all things visible and invisible. This is especially true for humans who are body and soul.

Because the creation process is based on goodness (God is good), the ultimate goodness restricted to the created material world would be humans who are created in the image of God.

Humans as living organisms would be subject to time and space of the natural world including the natural process of propagation. Thus, the first human can be described as being the generating source of all humankind. In the doctrines of Catholicism, this source of humans is a fully-complete human. The whole human race is in the first human “as one body of one man.” (CCC 404)

Number 3 statement would be something like–
God’s interaction with humans begins at the origin of humanity, that is, at the beginning of human history.
 
The beginning logical principles, based on Catholic teaching, are:
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans.
And a possible 3rd principle – from post 321
God’s interaction with humans begins at the origin of humanity, that is, at the beginning of human history.
Also in post 321 there is this sentence:
“Because the creation process is based on goodness (God is good), the ultimate goodness restricted to the created material world would be humans who are created in the image of God.”

Underlying this statement is the simple fact that our human nature is unique in that we are *both *material and spiritual. In the material world, we are peerless, the pinnacle of God’s creation. We are at the top of the material scale of goodness. The Catholic Church provides the reason for our superiority – we are in the image of God, that is, we are spiritual in the created sense. The unity of our soul and body is so profound that it is because of our soul (directly created by God at conception) that our body made of matter becomes a living human person. (CCC 362-366)

Because our human nature is so unique in that we are called to share in God’s life, it is a point of practicality that all humans have the same nature as the original human. (CCC 356) Realistically, we are not an infinite Creator God. We had a beginning in our material world and in justice, we all have the opportunity to be in friendship (sanctifying grace) with God. (CCC 1260)
Ancient myths attest to the fact that from the very beginning, humans knew that there was more to life than a decomposing anatomy. The super-natural was recognized even though it was not always described accurately. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, discernment on the part of the writers of the first three chapters of Genesis determined which ancient story was the real one.
In time, Divine Revelation begun in Genesis 1:1 was completed in Jesus Christ. (CCC 65-67)

Putting together all these points, we can safely say
3. God interacted with humanity at its origin.

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
In my humble opinion, it is logical, given the human nature that you and I possess, that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.
Source:* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*.

Because the Catholic Church holds that a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions (simplified description) does in fact exist–the presupposition for this thread is God as Creator exists.
The above is the foundational proposition in the opening post.

This is the last statement in the most recent post on this thread.
It references the points in post 322.
“Putting together all these points, we can safely say
3. God interacted with humanity at its origin.”

This granny is definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer. It has taken me days to recognize that there is a dramatic shift from the one original person Adam in post 1 to “humanity at its origin” in post 322.

The* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition* has paragraphs galore relating to humans/humanity. For purposes of this thread, here is a telling statement about our own personal humanity.
"The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (CCC, 404)
The Catholic Church views this as Divine Revelation which is confirmed in Romans 5:12-21; 1Corinthians 15: 21-22; and in the duly prepared pronouncements of Catholic doctrines by major ecumenical councils with the wisdom and guidance of the promised Holy Spirit. A list of these councils, which made Divine Revelation more explicit, starts on page 720 in the Catechism’s “Index of Citations.” For an understanding of “explicit”, please refer to Christ Jesus --“Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation” CCC, 65-67.

Not only is the logic of an original human important, but the logic or rather explanation of our own present human nature is linked to the first human person. :hmmm:

Readers – what say you?

Links to the Catechism.
origin.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
“Putting together all these points, we can safely say
3. God interacted with humanity at its origin.”
Why origin? The better question would be – Can logical also be practical?

Since Catholicism accepts the truth that human nature is an unique unification of both the spiritual and material worlds (CCC, 355; CCC, 362-366) and therefore,
humans are given the spiritual free will to choose a specific action – wouldn’t it be more practical to steer the course of human history from one specific historical point?

Since Catholicism accepts the reality of Original Sin – would it really be practical for it to occur after the historical birth of Jesus Christ? Even if Original Sin occurred 4,000 years before Christ began His preaching career – practically speaking, which person could claim that he, alone, committed the one and only Original Sin? And, Lord save us from such irrational thoughts, what would happen if Original Sin was committed after Christ’s Resurrection?

In any scenario – practically speaking, how would we know if Original Sin had any effect on us if it is merely a flip of the coin at any point in human history?
 
Why origin? The better question would be – Can logical also be practical?

Since Catholicism accepts the truth that human nature is an unique unification of both the spiritual and material worlds (CCC, 355; CCC, 362-366) and therefore,
humans are given the spiritual free will to choose a specific action – wouldn’t it be more practical to steer the course of human history from one specific historical point?

Since Catholicism accepts the reality of Original Sin – would it really be practical for it to occur after the historical birth of Jesus Christ? Even if Original Sin occurred 4,000 years before Christ began His preaching career – practically speaking, which person could claim that he, alone, committed the one and only Original Sin? And, Lord save us from such irrational thoughts, what would happen if Original Sin was committed after Christ’s Resurrection?

In any scenario – practically speaking, how would we know if Original Sin had any effect on us if it is merely a flip of the coin at any point in human history?
Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.
🤷
 
Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.
🤷
Our God is hidden. That is obvious. Even in the Garden, man’s relationship with his Creator would grow along with his understanding of Him. That is how humanity rolls, we learn and share our knowledge.

If your question is, “Why has He made Himself known to us in a limited fashion?” You will find that the answer lies in the fact that we exist as an “us”, a church, one humanity. We are meant to love and share with one another; that is how we come to Him.

The real question is, “Why did He make Himself a man for our salvation?” Why did He not leave us to our ignorance, insatiable cravings, and what would otherwise be hopeless suffering? Fallen angels had no second chance. You may believe that this is the nature of our condition. It isn’t.
 
Our God is hidden. That is obvious. Even in the Garden, man’s relationship with his Creator would grow along with his understanding of Him. That is how humanity rolls, we learn and share our knowledge.

If your question is, “Why has He made Himself known to us in a limited fashion?” You will find that the answer lies in the fact that we exist as an “us”, a church, one humanity. We are meant to love and share with one another; that is how we come to Him.

The real question is, “Why did He make Himself a man for our salvation?” Why did He not leave us to our ignorance, insatiable cravings, and what would otherwise be hopeless suffering? Fallen angels had no second chance. You may believe that this is the nature of our condition. It isn’t.
A Second Chance for each person belonging to the human species!

That opens up another path to the logic of one Adam who was created in communion with his Creator.
 
Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.
🤷
One very good thing about my bringing up “the whole logical practical problem” is that you ask essential questions. Aloysium, in post 326, also asked essential questions to which I replied in post 327. For both of you :flowers: Thank you.
When you asked about God possibly limiting His communication to those in the middle east, I immediately pictured ten billion people holding smart phones to their ears. Being practical, that would be the best way of communicating to people in every direction. The idea of we humans receiving a second chance following Adam’s disastrous choice, would definitely need repeated broadcasts. Unfortunately, Adam’s organic environment was in the recesses of human history.

We know that the Catholic Church considers Adam’s unique position at the dawn of human history as a basic foundation for Catholic doctrines regarding the condition of human nature. For example, we are in the image of God. Adam was not only created in the image of God, he originally shared in God’s divine life known then as the state of original holiness and justice. (CCC, 374-379) Now, we refer to Sanctifying Grace. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
SANCTIFYING GRACE: The grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us—of making us “perfect,” holy, and Christlike (1999).
My personal opinion, regarding the events in the first three chapters of Genesis, is that there is a real practical way of communication that God could depend on. The Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. (Creed professed at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) certainly is more creative than cell phones which abhor tunnels.
 
An early morning thought.

The sole oneness of the first true parents of humankind signifies the oneness of God. God is not your God or my God, your gods or my gods.

God is our God.
 
Originally Posted by StrawberryJam View Post
Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east? I mean, you brought up the whole logical practical problem.
Christ left the Apostles, His church, us, to participate in the salvation by giving it our voice, feet, hands etc. God wants us to be apart of the salvation, but the flesh is weak, “can not you stay awake to pray one hour?”. The mission he calls us to is to the whole world.
  1. God interacted with humanity at its origin.
God interacts with humanity from the beginning to the End. He is the Alpha and the Omega
 
Christ left the Apostles, His church, us, to participate in the salvation by giving it our voice, feet, hands etc. God wants us to be apart of the salvation, but the flesh is weak, “can not you stay awake to pray one hour?”. The mission he calls us to is to the whole world.
  1. God interacted with humanity at its origin.
God interacts with humanity from the beginning to the End. He is the Alpha and the Omega
You read my mind…and you are still standing!

Especially this part.
God interacts with humanity from the beginning to the End. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

Only, I did not think about Alpha and Omega. However, I did think about a possible statement of truth that God continues to interact with humanity. That being the case, it is reasonable to assume that God would sustain the news of the promised Messiah.

Please take a look at Paragraphs 50-55 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

The footnote for CCC, 54 led me to John 1: 1-18 and Romans 1:18-23. Paragraph 55 continues with the theme of God’s revelation to “our first parents” by opening with this eye-opening first sentence. “This revelation was not broken off by our first parents’ sin.”

To me, it looks like we are slowly gathering evidence, including the idea of a second chance in post 326,
in order to answer Strawberry Jam’s valid question. “Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east?” in post 325.

Links
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
May I offer this very long answer to Strawberry Jam’s question in post 325.
“Did your God notify all of those he could have of this great and wonderful news or did he limit his communication to those in the middle east?”
To begin.
We find great wisdom in God’s plan for humankind.

Because of His divine nature, God’s love and goodness encompasses everything He created. With divine love, He created us in the image of our Creator. We are the summit of God’s creative work. (Genesis 1:1; Genesis 1: 26-31; CCC, 343)

From the beginning, Adam was established in friendship with his Creator. The grace of original holiness made it possible for Adam to share in God’s divine life. As long as Adam remained in divine intimacy, he, his spouse, and all descendants would not have to suffer or die. (CCC, 374-379; CCC, 404)

From the beginning, Adam was endowed with intellect, including conscience, and with free will. He was immediately destined for eternal life with his Creator. Not only was the first human designed for eternal beatitude in the presence of the Beatific Vision, but we also could live in God’s eternal love because all humankind was in Adam as “one body of one man”. (CCC, 343; CCC, 355-358; CCC, 404; CCC, 1260; CCC,1711; *CCC,*1702-1706; Beatific Vision, CCC, Glossary, page 867)

In awe of God and His creation, St. Catherine of Siena questioned God. “What made You establish man in so great a dignity?” Love, in its fullness, is given as the answer for why we humans have the dignity of a person who is not just something, but someone. St. Catherine saw humankind as capable of tasting the eternal Good of God. (CCC, 356, small print. Please refer to CCC, 20-21 for an explanation of small print,)

It is true that Adam’s Original Sin shattered humanity’s original relationship with divinity with serious results. It is also true that God’s revelation about Adam and his descendants being destined for heaven remained intact. (CCC, 54-55)

God’s infinite love for humankind recognized that Adam, and subsequently his descendants, could carry the message of the promised Messiah with them as humanity began its migration to all parts of the world. Catholic tradition views Genesis 3:15 as the Protoevangelium (“first gospel”) – the announcement of the “New Adam” whose supreme obedience made amends superabundantly for the disobedience (Original Sin) of Adam.
(CCC, 410-411; 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22; 1 Corinthians 15: 45; Philippians 2: 5-11; Romans 5: 12-21)

Even when some, not all, ancient humans deviated from the truths of creation, there still existed in humankind the sense of the supernatural. This inherent knowledge of something beyond one’s natural environment is seen in various forms of religious expression. This does not mean that every manner of religious expression was true or even good, What it does mean is that the sense of the supernatural is so universal that we can correctly call man *a religious being *seeking the Creator. (CCC, 27-30)
In answer to the question regarding God communicating His message to all peoples besides those in the middle east.
God is not limited or restricted by His material creation. God continued to be present to all people as they dispersed north, east, south, and west across the globe. He safeguarded Adam’s story until the time of the writer chosen to retell the true story of human origin. Inspired by God Himself, this writer used figurative language to describe the reality of the primeval event of Original Sin. Thus, we, and all peoples, can have the certainty that human history is marked by Adam’s Original Sin and, more importantly, we know that Jesus Christ is our Genesis-promised Redeemer.
(CCC, 50-55; CCC, 390; Genesis 3: 15; John 3:16; Romans 5: 12-21; 1 Corinthians 15: 22; Humani Generis, 35-37)

From Eucharistic Prayer IV, Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
“We give You praise, Father most holy, for You are great and You have fashioned all Your works in wisdom and in love. You formed man in Your own image … And when through disobedience he had lost Your friendship, You did not abandon him to the domain of death. For You came in mercy to the aid of all, so that those who seek might find You.”
 
So far, the logic of Adam includes
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans.
  3. God interacted with humanity at its origin.
    is being worked on. Or as was said in my old neighborhood, this is something we need to chew on --meaning " to think something over" idioms.thefreedictionary.com/chew+over
In post 330 above, wmw commented: “God interacts with humanity from the beginning to the End. He is the Alpha and the Omega.” (Revelation. 1: 8; 21: 6; and 22: 12-13)

In post 332 above, there is this observation: “God is not limited or restricted by His material creation. God continued to be present to all people as they dispersed north, east, south, and west across the globe. He safeguarded Adam’s story until the time of the writer chosen to retell the true story of human origin.”

We can see for ourselves how the safeguarded Adam’s “story” leads, via the Old Testament, to the salvific mission of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man. The book of Isaiah is especially significant because Jesus refers to it. When we accept Christ’s Resurrection as truth, we also recognize that the driving purpose for His presence on earth is the Original Sin as committed by Adam, the first human on earth. (Romans 5: 12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22 & 45-58)

In Old Testament history, God as Alpha and Omega begins with Genesis 1:1, and He interacts with humans from the dawn of human history (Genesis, first three chapters) to the end of the world. From there, the goal for humans is eternal joy in the presence of the Beatific Vision. The universal desire for God is written in each human heart because one person, the first person’s human nature is directly transmitted to all his descendants. (CCC, Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867; CCC, 27)

Expanding the third axiom, this might work.
  1. From the dawn of human history, God, the Alpha and Omega, is actively present to each person.
This could deal with actual situations such as we have the freedom to accept or reject God’s presence. It could introduce the ultimate goal of each human person. Perhaps, because each person has the possibility of the Beatific Vision, we could reason to the source of humankind which would have to be one real human-- in order to maintain the single goal of all humans which is to be in the eternal presence of the one Beatific Vision. Like I said, number 3. needs to be chewed on.
 
Communication by Prayer

Who creates, sustains, and is the Master of Prayer?

CCC 2672 - The Holy Spirit, whose anointing permeates our whole being, is the interior Master of Christian prayer. He is the artisan of the living tradition of prayer. To be sure, there are as many paths of prayer as there are persons who pray, but it is the same Spirit acting in all and with all. It is in the communion of the Holy Spirit that Christian prayer is prayer in the Church. (695)

What does the Master of Prayer, the Holy Spirit, do when we pray?

CCC 1091 - In the liturgy the Holy Spirit is teacher of the faith of the People of God and artisan of “God’s masterpieces,” the sacraments of the New Covenant. The desire and work of the Spirit in the heart of the Church is that we may live from the life of the risen Christ. When the Spirit encounters in us the response of faith which he has aroused in us, he brings about genuine cooperation. Through it, the liturgy becomes the common work of the Holy Spirit and the Church. (798)

What are the results of the work that the Holy Spirit does in Prayer?

CCC 1092 - In this sacramental dispensation of Christ’s mystery the Holy Spirit acts in the same way as at other times in the economy of salvation: he prepares the Church to encounter her Lord; he recalls and makes Christ manifest to the faith of the assembly. By his transforming power, he makes the mystery of Christ present here and now. Finally the Spirit of communion unites the Church to the life and mission of Christ. (737)
 
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