Adam & Logic

[grannymh]

The Guy Fawkes reference was to show that burning someone in effigy isn’t restricted to those that lack communication skills.

My point is Adam made not just a huge error, but the largest error. He seems to get a pass. If we are to accept that there was an actual Adam, he should be reviled and hated.

Then again if we just take A&E as an allegory it would seem silly to waste the effort.

Yes, I agree that Adam made the largest error ever and if I ever meet him, I will slap him upside the head. This granny can be very cranky. Yet, while we humans can revile and hate anyone, it is God, Himself, that judges Adam and his final breath on earth.

What we need to keep in mind is that God, in the first three chapters of Genesis, truly loved the human species to the point that He made it possible for us to share in His divine life, here and after our death. Eternal joy can be ours…regardless of what Adam did. In no way, is this giving Adam a pass. Instead, we are looking beyond Adam to the Creator, God Himself. Adam did not take away our right to seek God.

With heaven as our goal, we need to spend the effort learning not only what had been offered to Adam, but also what that offer required of us. Then, we need to learn that God never abandoned Adam’s descendants.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Yes, I agree that Adam made the largest error ever and if I ever meet him, I will slap him upside the head. This granny can be very cranky. Yet, while we humans can revile and hate anyone, it is God, Himself, that judges Adam and his final breath on earth.

What we need to keep in mind is that God, in the first three chapters of Genesis, truly loved the human species to the point that He made it possible for us to share in His divine life, here and after our death. Eternal joy can be ours…regardless of what Adam did. In no way, is this giving Adam a pass. Instead, we are looking beyond Adam to the Creator, God Himself. Adam did not take away our right to seek God.

With heaven as our goal, we need to spend the effort learning not only what had been offered to Adam, but also what that offer required of us. Then, we need to learn that God never abandoned Adam’s descendants.

If we are looking past Adam he functions better as allegory.

 

[wmw]

After their expulsion from the Garden tradition tells us that Adam repented fully from his sin. By his sorrow, contrition, pleading, and, most importantly, love, God forgave Adam fully of his sin. He lived to be 930 years old. After his death Adam, with his wife Eve (who also must have repented), goes to the Limbo of the Just which is called “hell” in the Apostles’ Creed. The Limbo of the Just, however, is not the place of the damned. It is the place where righteous people waited for the coming of Christ before He conquered death and opened the gates of Heaven. According to tradition Adam ascended body and soul into Heaven with Christ on Ascension Thursday, forty days after Easter. Eve, too, was released from the Limbo of the Just and shared in the Glory of Christ in Heaven.

The feast day of Adam and Eve is the vigil of Christmas, the day before the fulfillment of the protoevangelium. They are the patron Saints of humble penance. The fact that they are considered Saints is a wonderful testimony to the mercy of our Almighty God.

Since both Adam and Eve are Saints if we also are granted entrance into Heaven then we can ask their forgiveness for thinking ill of them and reviling their memory. Unless you want to contradict the authority of the church or disagree with God for granting their pardon. I say God bless Saints Adam & Eve!

 

[simpleas]

Yes, I agree that Adam made the largest error ever and if I ever meet him, I will slap him upside the head. This granny can be very cranky. Yet, while we humans can revile and hate anyone, it is God, Himself, that judges Adam and his final breath on earth.

What we need to keep in mind is that God, in the first three chapters of Genesis, truly loved the human species to the point that He made it possible for us to share in His divine life, here and after our death. Eternal joy can be ours…regardless of what Adam did. In no way, is this giving Adam a pass. Instead, we are looking beyond Adam to the Creator, God Himself. Adam did not take away our right to seek God.

With heaven as our goal, we need to spend the effort learning not only what had been offered to Adam, but also what that offer required of us. Then, we need to learn that God never abandoned Adam’s descendants.

Eternal joy can be ours if we are sinless or near sinless upon death, did Adam choose this for his children?
Adam may not have taken our right to seek God, but he broke his communion with God, thus breaking everyones.
Required of us or Adam?
Adam had the offer on the table, refused it. We didn’t get that chance?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Since both Adam and Eve are Saints if we also are granted entrance into Heaven then we can ask their forgiveness for thinking ill of them and reviling their memory. Unless you want to contradict the authority of the church or disagree with God for granting their pardon. I say God bless Saints Adam & Eve!

Again only if we hold a literal interpretation. It works better as allegory. But to take the literal track.

Why would we need forgiveness of the thought? They screwed it up, we can hold them accountable from our end. God offerend them forgiveness from his end yet we are the ones that still pay the price. God didn’t say, “ok cool, everyone back to the garden.”

If a thief steals your family’s money and receives a pardon from the government it doesn’t mean you get your money back or should forgive them.

We aren’t back in the state of grace because Adam was forgiven. The damage was perminate. His being forgiven doesn’t affect us, we still pay the price. It seems unjust that Adam would be forgiven an returned to his original state of grace while his descendants have to pay for his sin, which he was forgiven.

 

[simpleas]

*Quote:
After their expulsion from the Garden tradition tells us that Adam repented fully from his sin. By his sorrow, contrition, pleading, and, most importantly, love, God forgave Adam fully of his sin. He lived to be 930 years old. After his death Adam, with his wife Eve (who also must have repented), goes to the Limbo of the Just which is called “hell” in the Apostles’ Creed. The Limbo of the Just, however, is not the place of the damned. It is the place where righteous people waited for the coming of Christ before He conquered death and opened the gates of Heaven. According to tradition Adam ascended body and soul into Heaven with Christ on Ascension Thursday, forty days after Easter. Eve, too, was released from the Limbo of the Just and shared in the Glory of Christ in Heaven.

The feast day of Adam and Eve is the vigil of Christmas, the day before the fulfillment of the protoevangelium. They are the patron Saints of humble penance. The fact that they are considered Saints is a wonderful testimony to the mercy of our Almighty God*.

QUOTE=wmw;11544219]Since both Adam and Eve are Saints if we also are granted entrance into Heaven then we can ask their forgiveness for thinking ill of them and reviling their memory. Unless you want to contradict the authority of the church or disagree with God for granting their pardon. I say God bless Saints Adam & Eve!

Is this in the ccc?

If God forgave Adam before Christ came, then why not forgive everyone else?

I was at the Christmas vigil and there was no mention of Adam and Eve, which I was surprised at as I had heard their names mentioned in previous years.

Sounds alittle strange in a way that we would need to ask A&E for their forgiveness for something they caused in the whole human race!
I don’t hate A&E, i just don’t understand why they sinned so badly.

 

[grannymh]

Eternal joy can be ours if we are sinless or near sinless upon death, did Adam choose this for his children?
Adam may not have taken our right to seek God, but he broke his communion with God, thus breaking everyones.
Required of us or Adam?
Adam had the offer on the table, refused it. We didn’t get that chance?

Sorry, but facts are facts. We have the same offer that Adam had. What appears to be forgotten is the fact that there is a difference in rank between the first human person and ourselves. Another forgotten fact is that Adam and ourselves have the same basic human nature which is an unique unification of both the material world and the spiritual world, aka body and soul.

One of the main points of this thread is the logic which comes from the difference between Adam and us. The simple fact that there is only one first human ancestor is because “The whole human race is in Adam ‘as one body of one man’.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4,1; CCC, 404)

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Sorry, but facts are facts. We have the same offer that Adam had. What appears to be forgotten is the fact that there is a difference in rank between the first human person and ourselves. Another forgotten fact is that Adam and ourselves have the same basic human nature which is an unique unification of both the material world and the spiritual world, aka body and soul.

One of the main points of this thread is the logic which comes from the difference between Adam and us. The simple fact that there is only one first human ancestor is because “The whole human race is in Adam ‘as one body of one man’.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4,1; CCC, 404)

No, it’s not even close to the same deal. We aren’t born in a state of grace in an earthly paradise with one rule.

 

[grannymh]

No, it’s not even close to the same deal. We aren’t born in a state of grace in an earthly paradise with one rule.

Briefly, there was more than one rule in the “Garden” which was plain planet earth and not an earthly paradise per se. (CCC, 396)

The “offer” to Adam was that Adam could live in eternal joy in the Presence of the Beatific Vision. (CCC, Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867) Catholicism teaches that God offers Adam’s descendants, including you and me, the same opportunity to live in joy eternal in His Presence in heaven, which is infinitely different from any garden on planet earth.
(CCC, 355-356; CCC, 1730-1732)

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Briefly, there was more than one rule in the “Garden” which was plain planet earth and not an earthly paradise per se.

The “offer” to Adam was that Adam could live in eternal joy in the Presence of the Beatific Vision. (CCC, Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867) Catholicism teaches that God offers Adam’s descendants, including you and me, the same opportunity to live in joy eternal in His Presence in heaven, which is infinitely different from any garden on planet earth.
(CCC, 355-356; CCC, 1730-1732)

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It was brief because Adam screed it up. Adam lived in the vision on earth. We don’t have the same deal. Not even close.

 

[grannymh]

I don’t hate A&E, i just don’t understand why they sinned so badly.

It is Adam who is credited with committing the original Original Sin.

The “why” Adam freely chose to sin against God is ENVY.

Adam was intellectually aware of the advantages enjoyed by the Creator. Consequently, he desired to possess the same advantages. Genesis 2: 16-17 and Genesis 3: 4-6.

 

[wmw]

There is a wide chasm between “figurative language” and your use of “allegory” as meaning just a story told to enlighten, but didn’t actually happen.

The Catholic Church defines a minimum of what must be believed as a Catholic. I don’t want to say read all the documents on the subject, but linked below is a good summary in a PDF on the web:

ihm-newmelle.org/site/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=mvY1rCWpTt4%3D&tabid=161&mid=705

This part is the most germane to our discussion:

It is impossible to dismiss the creation events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

Adam and Eve: Real People
It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2––3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).
In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the firstparents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).
The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).

Science and Religion
The Catholic Church has always taught that “no real disagreement can exist between the theologian and the scientist provided each keeps within his own limits. . . . If nevertheless there is a disagreement . . . it should be remembered that the sacred writers, or more truly ‘‘the Spirit of God who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men such truths (as the inner structure of visible objects) which do not help anyone to salvation’’; and that, for this reason, rather than trying to provide a scientific exposition of nature, they sometimes describe and treat these matters either in a somewhat figurative language or as the common manner of speech those times required, and indeed still requires nowadays in everyday life, even amongst most learned people” (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus 18).

 

[wmw]

On forgiving Adam - If there is a single subject most taught in Sunday homilies it must be the subject of forgiveness. The latest homilies I’ve heard relating to the parable of the Prodical Son is very much less likely about the actual prodical one, but the son that stays at home. I hope just this much recounting here is enough to stop this line of discourse on “why should I forgive Adam”. We must all learn to forgive more and more completely this is very much at the heart of christianity.

 

[D_Martin]

The body and soul are one. By receiving the sacraments only the soul is cleansed. The soul controls the body, so if the soul is cleansed each time, why is it so easy to fall into a sin?
We are never restored back to the original grace and justice once givin to A&E.
Christ helps us, I know this, I still don’t understand why we have to suffer many trials as beloved humans of God on this planet, which is of much beauty in itself. We have to hope for a better, eternal life when we die.

There may be some Catholic theology to support what you are saying, of which I do believe I’ve heard before, but I do believe you are incorrect in the understanding of salvation.

It is not our obedience that is satisfactory, it is the obedience of Christ that is satisfactory in the Presence of God the Father.

For example, back in the day lepers and those who were unclean were not supposed to be amongst the general public, and if they were they were to shout out “unclean, unclean”, because the unclean makes the clean unclean. In the case of those who came into the Presence of Jesus Christ that were unclean, they would have to brake this particular law, so that the Lord’s Cleanliness would make the unclean clean. Hence in the same respect the obedience of the Lord Jesus makes us obedient in the eyes of the Creator and Judge. Our obedience to the faith is truly a question of what has one place their faith in. One’s own obedience, or the obedience of Christ.

we must remember that as obedient as one like Moses was, it was insufficient, and unsatisfactory to the Lord God. And the Lord God expressed that dissatisfaction when Moses struck the rock twice in the wilderness.

Place is just that place, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He says then your are in the Light correct?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

There is a wide chasm between “figurative language” and your use of “allegory” as meaning just a story told to enlighten, but didn’t actually happen.

The Catholic Church defines a minimum of what must be believed as a Catholic. I don’t want to say read all the documents on the subject, but linked below is a good summary in a PDF on the web:

ihm-newmelle.org/site/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=mvY1rCWpTt4%3D&tabid=161&mid=705

This part is the most germane to our discussion:

You would have to get into human evolution to discuss it, which we can’t. The bible isn’t a scientific book, it’s a religious one. It’s not describing a scientific event.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

On forgiving Adam - If there is a single subject most taught in Sunday homilies it must be the subject of forgiveness. The latest homilies I’ve heard relating to the parable of the Prodical Son is very much less likely about the actual prodical one, but the son that stays at home. I hope just this much recounting here is enough to stop this line of discourse on “why should I forgive Adam”. We must all learn to forgive more and more completely this is very much at the heart of christianity.

I think it speaks more to the nature of God than Adam. Adam screwed it up for humanity and was forgiven by God and returned to his original state of grace. As for his descendants we reap what he sown. If he was forgiven why is the burden of original sin passed down?

There is a John Prine song “Fish & Whistle” that comes to mind when I think of God, Adam and Original sin.

“Father forgive us for what we must do
You forgive us and we’ll forgive you
We’ll forgive each other till we both turn blue
Then we’ll whistle and go fishing in heaven”

 

[grannymh]

The bible isn’t a scientific book, it’s a religious one. It’s not describing a scientific event.

And then there is the unique Catholic view of the Bible book. :clapping::tiphat::extrahappy:


The Catholic Church, since Pentecost, is deliberately guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit when it comes to Divine Revelation expressed in Holy Scripture. Divine Revelation is preserved by the Catholic Church in its doctrines.

Divine Revelation is a major step up from “religious”.

Divine Revelation trumps.

.

 

[wmw]

Forgiveness is never a complete restoration or undoing of all the effects of sin as explained in these paragraphs of the CCC:

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent’s personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, “provided we suffer with him.”

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of “him who strengthens” us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ ... in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth “fruits that befit repentance.” These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

And then there is the unique Catholic view of the Bible book. :clapping::tiphat::extrahappy:


The Catholic Church, since Pentecost, is deliberately guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit when it comes to Divine Revelation expressed in Holy Scripture. Divine Revelation is preserved by the Catholic Church in its doctrines.

Divine Revelation is a major step up from “religious”.

Divine Revelation trumps.

.

Here are some scientific errors in the bible

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_errors_in_the_Bible

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Forgiveness is never a complete restoration or undoing of all the effects of sin as explained in these paragraphs of the CCC:

What did Adam do for restitution? He stole our state of grace and life in the garden?