Adam & Logic

[grannymh]

Hi Roscoe Turner,

Glad to see you are still with this thread in posts 413 & 414.

As for scientific errors, that link had some interesting comments in the Planetary Information section.
“The creation of the sun, moon, and stars on day four is meant to be a theological point, rather than a scientific one. As other cultures worshiped the sun and moon and divined by the stars (astrology), the Hebrew authors are making the point that none of them is the source of the light, but rather merely reflectors of the light (as lamps) whose ultimate origin is in their God.”
The Catholic doctrine, which is professed in the Creed, Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, centers on Genesis 1:1. The “how” and “when” which follows has enjoyed speculation since the dawn of human history. Divine Revelation is that almighty God is the maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. It is up to scientists and creative individuals as to how the elements of the material universe fell into place.

By the way, my research is in the first three chapters of Genesis. I do not do Noah.

I cannot answer your question “What did Adam do for restitution?” in post 414.

The second question “He stole our state of grace and life in the garden?” has me thinking…

Considering the Catholic teaching that in Adam was all human nature, (CCC, 404) one could creatively say that Adam stole your state of grace, my state of grace, and the state of grace of my descendants which happen to be a crowd. But, Catholic teaching does not stop short. It continues with the teaching that at the moment of our conception, God creates our spiritual soul. (CCC, 366) For some really interesting reading, start with* CCC*, 362.

This fact of spiritual soul as part of our tiny beginning means that we are immediately called by God to share in His own life. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) Even though we are in the contracted state of Original Sin, we are truly eligible for God’s friendship.

Catholicism teaches that the Holy Spirit offers to all, with no exceptions, the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. (CCC, 1260; CCC, Glossary, Paschal Mystery/Sacrifice, page 891)

As for the “good life” in the Garden, that was strictly a temporary place on our planet.
Granted that Adam and Eve enjoyed a very special relationship with God, it was baby steps compared with the Presence of God in the Beatific Vision. (CCC, Index, Heaven, page 803; CCC, Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867)) It would be like sitting on the cold curb while everyone else is celebrating the New Year inside.

Hold those thoughts.

Early this morning, I started a response to your post 410. Even on the last day of 2013, the same ole, same ole interruptions occur. Yet, it seems to me that your reference to someone steeling our state of grace would fit right in with my response to you. So please be patient, and I will return.
:snowing:

 

[simpleas]

There may be some Catholic theology to support what you are saying, of which I do believe I’ve heard before, but I do believe you are incorrect in the understanding of salvation.

It is not our obedience that is satisfactory, it is the obedience of Christ that is satisfactory in the Presence of God the Father.

For example, back in the day lepers and those who were unclean were not supposed to be amongst the general public, and if they were they were to shout out “unclean, unclean”, because the unclean makes the clean unclean. In the case of those who came into the Presence of Jesus Christ that were unclean, they would have to brake this particular law, so that the Lord’s Cleanliness would make the unclean clean. Hence in the same respect the obedience of the Lord Jesus makes us obedient in the eyes of the Creator and Judge. Our obedience to the faith is truly a question of what has one place their faith in. One’s own obedience, or the obedience of Christ.

we must remember that as obedient as one like Moses was, it was insufficient, and unsatisfactory to the Lord God. And the Lord God expressed that dissatisfaction when Moses struck the rock twice in the wilderness.

Place is just that place, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He says then your are in the Light correct?

Thanks,
I believe I am in the light…

Our obedience to the faith is truly a question of what has one place their faith in. One’s own obedience, or the obedience of Christ

I would say both? We have to be obedient to the church and through christ’s grace we should be.

*Hence in the same respect the obedience of the Lord Jesus makes us obedient in the eyes of the Creator and Judge. *

Not sure I understand this, to me thats like saying no matter how we sin we are justified because of Christ’s suffering, so we don’t need confession…

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Hi Roscoe Turner,

Glad to see you are still with this thread in posts 413 & 414.

As for scientific errors, that link had some interesting comments in the Planetary Information section.
“The creation of the sun, moon, and stars on day four is meant to be a theological point, rather than a scientific one. As other cultures worshiped the sun and moon and divined by the stars (astrology), the Hebrew authors are making the point that none of them is the source of the light, but rather merely reflectors of the light (as lamps) whose ultimate origin is in their God.”
The Catholic doctrine, which is professed in the Creed, Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, centers on Genesis 1:1. The “how” and “when” which follows has enjoyed speculation since the dawn of human history. Divine Revelation is that almighty God is the maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. It is up to scientists and creative individuals as to how the elements of the material universe fell into place.

By the way, my research is in the first three chapters of Genesis. I do not do Noah.

I cannot answer your question “What did Adam do for restitution?” in post 414.

The second question “He stole our state of grace and life in the garden?” has me thinking…

Considering the Catholic teaching that in Adam was all human nature, (CCC, 404) one could creatively say that Adam stole your state of grace, my state of grace, and the state of grace of my descendants which happen to be a crowd. But, Catholic teaching does not stop short. It continues with the teaching that at the moment of our conception, God creates our spiritual soul. (CCC, 366) For some really interesting reading, start with* CCC*, 362.

This fact of spiritual soul as part of our tiny beginning means that we are immediately called by God to share in His own life. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) Even though we are in the contracted state of Original Sin, we are truly eligible for God’s friendship.

Catholicism teaches that the Holy Spirit offers to all, with no exceptions, the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. (CCC, 1260; CCC, Glossary, Paschal Mystery/Sacrifice, page 891)

As for the “good life” in the Garden, that was strictly a temporary place on our planet.
Granted that Adam and Eve enjoyed a very special relationship with God, it was baby steps compared with the Presence of God in the Beatific Vision. (CCC, Index, Heaven, page 803; CCC, Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867)) It would be like sitting on the cold curb while everyone else is celebrating the New Year inside.

Hold those thoughts.

Early this morning, I started a response to your post 410. Even on the last day of 2013, the same ole, same ole interruptions occur. Yet, it seems to me that your reference to someone steeling our state of grace would fit right in with my response to you. So please be patient, and I will return.
:snowing:

Being born in original sin we can’t have the same relationship that was afforded A&E. That is what was stolen. By temporary do you mean because it is only a lifetime or do you mean that man wasn’t made to live in the garden permanently?

 

[simpleas]

Sorry, but facts are facts. We have the same offer that Adam had. What appears to be forgotten is the fact that there is a difference in rank between the first human person and ourselves. Another forgotten fact is that Adam and ourselves have the same basic human nature which is an unique unification of both the material world and the spiritual world, aka body and soul.

One of the main points of this thread is the logic which comes from the difference between Adam and us. The simple fact that there is only one first human ancestor is because “The whole human race is in Adam ‘as one body of one man’.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4,1; CCC, 404)

I’m having one of those :banghead: moments again Not because I can’t get through to you, more I can’t get what you say through to me!

You say we have the same offer A&E had…
A&E were created sinless, we are born with O.S.

If A&E are a different rank from us how is it we have the same offer? They had the same body and soul, they were human, but they already had something else…grace.

We have to earn grace, or is it we just have to accept grace through Jesus?

 

[grannymh]

I’m having one of those :banghead: moments again Not because I can’t get through to you, more I can’t get what you say through to me!

You say we have the same offer A&E had…
A&E were created sinless, we are born with O.S.

If A&E are a different rank from us how is it we have the same offer? They had the same body and soul, they were human, but they already had something else…grace.

We have to earn grace, or is it we just have to accept grace through Jesus?

Briefly, between interruptions…

The offer (to share in God’s life for eternity) comes from God.

So does it really matter if Adam is in the state of sanctifying grace and we are in the contracted state of Original Sin? Does God have the power and the love to offer the same invitation to human nature regardless of whether or not the person has the rank of being the first human being?

Who is this God?

:snowing:

 

[grannymh]

Being born in original sin we can’t have the same relationship that was afforded A&E. That is what was stolen. By temporary do you mean because it is only a lifetime or do you mean that man wasn’t made to live in the garden permanently?

Briefly, between interruptions…

The terms of God’s relationship between humanity and divinity comes from God.

Does God have the power and the love to offer this relationship to human nature as a whole? No exceptions. No excuses. Is God really limited by a human’s state of Original Sin?

Who is this God?

Temporary means that the Garden of Eden was not made to be the permanent home of Adam and Eve. They looked forward to heaven while in Eden and when they left Eden. Once our human nature was wounded, there was no longer a need for the Garden. There is no zip code for Eden.

Our current home on planet earth is not permanent. Because we are spiritual beings – because of our God-created rational soul
and will – our physical/material place is not permanent. There is heaven or hell beyond our anatomy’s death.

Who is this God who continued to love humans after Adam?

:snowing:

 

[grannymh]

I think it speaks more to the nature of God than Adam. Adam screwed it up for humanity and was forgiven by God and returned to his original state of grace. As for his descendants we reap what he sown. If he was forgiven why is the burden of original sin passed down?

There is a John Prine song “Fish & Whistle” that comes to mind when I think of God, Adam and Original sin.

“Father forgive us for what we must do
You forgive us and we’ll forgive you
We’ll forgive each other till we both turn blue
Then we’ll whistle and go fishing in heaven”

You have my sincere apology for not keeping my promise to answer the question Why is the burden of original sin passed down? from post 410.

After reviewing my notes, it dawned on me that my words are useless because the answer has already been given in paragraphs 404-405 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. I cannot force people to study them.

I cannot do better than Divine Revelation as contained in Catholic doctrines.

Links to the universal Catechism.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Briefly, between interruptions…

The offer (to share in God’s life for eternity) comes from God.

So does it really matter if Adam is in the state of sanctifying grace and we are in the contracted state of Original Sin? Does God have the power and the love to offer the same invitation to human nature regardless of whether or not the person has the rank of being the first human being?

Who is this God?

:snowing:

You have my sincere apology for not keeping my promise to answer the question Why is the burden of original sin passed down? from post 410.

After reviewing my notes, it dawned on me that my words are useless because the answer has already been given in paragraphs 404-405 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. I cannot force people to study them.

I cannot do better than Divine Revelation as contained in Catholic doctrines.

Links to the universal Catechism.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

No, it doesn’t answer it actually paragraph 404 says it’s a mystery.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

He mucked it up for us all. We could have had what he had.

 

[grannymh]

No, it doesn’t answer it actually paragraph 404 says it’s a mystery.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

He mucked it up for us all. We could have had what he had.

May I respectfully point out that what is in bold refers to the transmission of Original Sin which obviously does not answer the real question from post 410 which is the very simple question, Why is the burden of original sin passed down?

Why passed down, not how.

By the way, the answer to the post 410 question that is found in CCC, 404-405 is why logically there was only one real original true first man and his spouse. Please refer to post 1 of this thread.

 

[oldcelt]

No, it doesn’t answer it actually paragraph 404 says it’s a mystery.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

He mucked it up for us all. We could have had what he had.

There are those key words again…mystery…meaning we just don’t have any idea…and revelation…somebody or something told somebody something that we interpret to mean this or that. Because of this evidence we have told impressionable and easily frightened children that they were born with a black stain on their soul and if they don’t follow the rules they will spend eternity being tortured for a sin that we freely admit they didn’t commit.

There is a word for threatening a child with the most horrible of all possible punishments with no justification.

 

[simpleas]

Briefly, between interruptions…

The offer (to share in God’s life for eternity) comes from God.

So does it really matter if Adam is in the state of sanctifying grace and we are in the contracted state of Original Sin? Does God have the power and the love to offer the same invitation to human nature regardless of whether or not the person has the rank of being the first human being?

Who is this God?

:snowing:

Yes to share in Gods life for eternity comes from God.

No I believe God loves us as he loved the first humans.

Does it matter if Adam is of grace and we are in the state of contracted O.S…to me yes.
Adam possessed more than we ever can, no matter how much we ask for grace from God.
Adam and Eve knew no death, pain or suffering of any sort, until they are deceived by satan.
God could have just punished satan, if angels are different to humans, why punish the human for the fault of the angel?

Who is this God?..is that a trick question?

 

[tonyrey]

There are those key words again…mystery…meaning we just don’t have any idea…and revelation…somebody or something told somebody something that we interpret to mean this or that. Because of this evidence we have told impressionable and easily frightened children that they were born with a black stain on their soul and if they don’t follow the rules they will spend eternity being tortured for a sin that we freely admit they didn’t commit.

There is a word for threatening a child with the most horrible of all possible punishments with no justification.

Straw man.

 

[oldcelt]

Straw man.

Reality…I lived it along with millions of others. Strawman is an attempt to deflect the obvious truth that this little tale was turned into a horrid control element when someone brain-stormed and came up with “original sin.” For Adam and Eve, maybe, but to share it with every human being throughout all time?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

May I respectfully point out that what is in bold refers to the transmission of Original Sin which obviously does not answer the real question from post 410 which is the very simple question, Why is the burden of original sin passed down?

Why passed down, not how.

By the way, the answer to the post 410 question that is found in CCC, 404-405 is why logically there was only one real original true first man and his spouse. Please refer to post 1 of this thread.

It really doesn’t answer it. It explains the mechanism. Adam broke something that could be fixed. What we are left with is broken. God being all powerful could have fixed it but did not. That is not explained.

 

[tonyrey]

Reality…I lived it along with millions of others. Strawman is an attempt to deflect the obvious truth that this little tale was turned into a horrid control element when someone brain-stormed and came up with “original sin.” For Adam and Eve, maybe, but to share it with every human being throughout all time?

You were told you were born with a black stain on your soul and would spend eternity being tortured for a sin you didn’t commit if you didn’t follow the rules?

BTW Which rules?

 

[grannymh]

There are those key words again…mystery…meaning we just don’t have any idea…and revelation…somebody or something told somebody something that we interpret to mean this or that. Because of this evidence we have told impressionable and easily frightened children that they were born with a black stain on their soul and if they don’t follow the rules they will spend eternity being tortured for a sin that we freely admit they didn’t commit.

There is a word for threatening a child with the most horrible of all possible punishments with no justification.

I cannot speak for others on this thread.

Ever since I learned Original Sin as a very young student, I have never seen any mystery to it. What is so mysterious about a human person deciding to sin against his Creator?

Describing Original Sin as a contracted “black stain” is not all that bad, provided that the “stain” is accurately described as the deprivation of God’s holiness. (CCC, 404) And subsequently, without a moment’s hesitation, the child is told that the Sacrament of Baptism erased the “black stain”. (CCC, 405)

I cannot speak for other groups.

The Catholic religion does not teach that a person will spend eternity being tortured for a sin that she or he didn’t commit.

 

[oldcelt]

You were told you were born with a black stain on your soul and would spend eternity being tortured for a sin you didn’t commit if you didn’t follow the rules?

BTW Which rules?

All the mandates of the Church beginning with Baptism. There’s that Free Will thing again…we’ll eliminate it with infant baptism. Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that Baptism in the CC was truly voluntary, the person refuses it and somehow manages to commit no more sin throughout their death…wouldn’t that person still go to hell for the original sin?

 

[tonyrey]

All the mandates of the Church beginning with Baptism. There’s that Free Will thing again…we’ll eliminate it with infant baptism. Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that Baptism in the CC was truly voluntary, the person refuses it and somehow manages to commit no more sin throughout their death…wouldn’t that person still go to hell for the original sin?

Free will isn’t eliminated by any form of baptism. Nor does anyone go to hell on account of original sin:

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that Baptism in the CC was truly voluntary, the person refuses it and somehow manages to commit no more sin throughout their death…wouldn’t that person still go to hell for the original sin?

ah, hypotheticals, sigh

CCC- 1281: Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

In your imagined scenario, the person would have had to refuse it for reasons inspired by grace and in an attempt to do His will. I’m not sure how this would all happen in reality, but there you go.

 

[oldcelt]

I cannot speak for others on this thread.

Ever since I learned Original Sin as a very young student, I have never seen any mystery to it. What is so mysterious about a human person deciding to sin against his Creator?

Describing Original Sin as a contracted “black stain” is not all that bad, provided that the “stain” is accurately described as the deprivation of God’s holiness. (CCC, 404) And subsequently, without a moment’s hesitation, the child is told that the Sacrament of Baptism erased the “black stain”. (CCC, 405)

I cannot speak for other groups.

The Catholic religion does not teach that a person will spend eternity being tortured for a sin that she or he didn’t commit.

Sin against the creator before your birth? What could you possibly do? Sin before the age of reason? It is a way to start controlling the mind so that the other tenets will be obeyed with little or no thought and the CC certainly is not alone in using such techniques.