Adam & Logic

  • Thread starter Thread starter grannymh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It would be in his conscience that Adam heard God speak to him and thereby knew he should not eat that fruit.
Or maybe not.
God “commanded them” which sounds like a personal request, an act of Revelation even.

By “conscience” you are suggesting more a use of right reason applied to creation.

I am not sure which means, Revelation or Reason the Church definitively holds to.
Consequences may vary accordingly.
 
I use the Catholic definition of human. .
GM I believe thats a hard barrow to push.
While the Church might have adopted Aquinas’s definition (in fact largely borrowed from the Greek “scientific world”) that doesn’t mean it is limited to this Medieval formulation or that it cannot use other definitions or even non-conceptual more descriptive ways of defining humanity (eg Biblical ones) if it better suits kerygmatic/theological purpose.
 
Been away…

GM I don’t really understand your response to my below speculative scenario.
Maybe I have missed something:

The Scenario was:
Is there any intrinsic reason in your theology of the Fall why Adam and Eve could not have had children before they themselves Fell?
Yes. Original Sin.
May I point out that the Catholic Church has the benefit of 20-20 hindsight?
And if the above is possible (which I personally see no problem with as God did order them to go forth and multiply before Original Sin) then it would seem possible to have one set of children still in original innocence and another set in original sin?

I would be quite interested in seeing how you apply your understanding of Catholic theology principles in this area to such a scenario and exactly why you may or may not accept it as possible.
Original Sin principles can be found in the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*. In addition, they can be found throughout this thread. Yesterday, for example.
 
If by some great miracle we suddenly discovered/unearthed the quite different writings that the author of Genesis is said to have melded and edited together (from different at least two Hebrew tribes/traditions) - I do not believe those writings could be called Revelation or “Divine truths”.
The Emuma Elis, Eridu Genesis and Atra-Hasis are sometimes cited as influential on Genesis but are not the two creation stories were combined in Genesis. In the Canaanite and Sumerian myths El is the chief god not the only one.

For those that may ask “two stories of creation in Genesis?”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative
The Genesis creation narrative is the creation myth of both Judaism and Christianity.[1] It is made up of two parts, roughly equivalent to the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis. In the first part, Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:3, Elohim, the generic Hebrew word for God, creates the world in six days, then rests on, blesses and sanctifies the seventh day. God creates by spoken command (“Let there be…”), suggesting a comparison with a king, who has only to speak for things to happen,[2] and names the elements of the cosmos as he creates them, in keeping with the common ancient concept that things did not really exist until they had been named.[3]
In the second, Genesis 2:4–24 God, referred to by the personal name “Yahweh”, shapes the first man from dust, places him in the Garden of Eden, and breathes his own breath into the man who thus becomes נֶפֶש nephesh, a living being; man shares nephesh with all creatures, but only of man is this life-giving act of God described.[4] The man names the animals, signifying his authority within God’s creation, and God forms the first woman, whom the man names “Eve”, from the man’s body by taking one of the man’s ribs.[5]
 
I doubt it.

It looks like I have answered all your questions, except the one about needing Jesus to repair the broken relationship with God.

Adam, in whom is all humankind as one body of one man, severed his bond with God by committing the very serious act of disobedience aka Original Sin. God, Who is Divine, created the bond between Himself and His beloved humans. Obviously, God is the only one Who could restore this bond of sharing in His own life. Adam is just a human creature.

Yet, God so loved humankind that He did not abandon us. Jesus Christ assumed human nature minus sin, so that He, being Divine, could take Adam’s place in reparation for the shattered union between humanity and Divinity.

May God bless you as you continue to learn from all the information given you.
Thankyou Grannymh,
I thought so, it was when I read the below passage that I wondered what it meant, being strangely unable to understand why God would assume human form for a human fault I thought I’d missed something my entire life…😊

"when therefore on the eve of his passion Jesus Christ speaks of the sin of those who “do not believe in him” in these words of his, full of sorrow, there is as it were a distant echo of that sin which in its original form is obscurely inscribed in the mystery of creation. For the one who is speaking is not only the son of man but the one who is also “the first born of all creation” for in him all things were created…through him and for him.

I suppose the meaning of the first born…christ was born…were as Adam was first made…is were the confusion happened.😊

🙂
 
GM I am a little dubious about this approach.
Are you able to provide a specific source for this type of explanation of how the truths of Genesis were communicated to mankind?

I do not believe we can really say that “Divine Truths were handed down from generation to generation” before Genesis - but perhaps I misunderstand you.
I believe that all we can say is that the redaction represented by Genesis and canonised by Judaism and Catholicism is Divine Truth/ Revelation.

If by some great miracle we suddenly discovered/unearthed the quite different writings that the author of Genesis is said to have melded and edited together (from different at least two Hebrew tribes/traditions) - I do not believe those writings could be called Revelation or “Divine truths”.
Here is what I wrote in post 519.
“Loving God, the writer searched the “Divine truths” handed down generation to generation. Thus, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Divine Revelation, which would eventually become Catholic Doctrines, was preserved.”
The Hebrew people were entrusted with the truths of human history. They were also aware that other groups of people had different versions of human history. Despite their turbulent history, the Hebrews retained the one God of their ancestors. Being in love with God, it was time to preserve their history in “official” writing. Thus, they had to search back for their beginning story which had been handed down from generation to generation. How this was handed down is not as important as knowing what was handed down and the way it was eventually guaranteed as truth.

Loving God is key. It comes from the 2nd axiom of this thread. “God as Creator interacts with humans.” God interacted with humans big time by creating the first human in His image. His promise to continue interacting with humans is the Protoevangelium (“first gospel”), found in Genesis 3:15. Here is the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer. (CCC, 410). Adam and Eve left the garden loving God Who had not abandoned them. It is this love which caused the preservation of the truths at the beginning of human history.

Practically speaking, there are a lot of verses in the first three chapters of Genesis. But not all of them have become Catholic doctrines. Under the guidance of the promised Holy Spirit, St. Paul and others discerned Divine Revelation which needed to be preserved in the Catholic Deposit of Faith. (chapter 14, Gospel of John; Acts 2: 1-4)

Thus, the first three chapters of Genesis are a both - and and not a either - or. They are not either literal or figurative. They contain both literal explanations and figurative explanations of Divine Revelation. Properly defined and duly declared Catholic doctrines have sorted out what is what.
 
Quote:
Of all the creatures mentioned in the beginning of Genesis, Adam is totally unique.
Would my two eyes and analytical brain do as a source? 😉

Otherwise, I submit CCC, 356 & 365.
While we and other creatures share anatomical features (we are vertebrates), it is our spiritual soul which makes us totally unique.
 
Been away…

GM I don’t really understand your response to my below speculative scenario.
Maybe I have missed something:

The Scenario was:
Is there any intrinsic reason in your theology of the Fall why Adam and Eve could not have had children before they themselves Fell?

And if the above is possible (which I personally see no problem with as God did order them to go forth and multiply before Original Sin) then it would seem possible to have one set of children still in original innocence and another set in original sin?

I would be quite interested in seeing how you apply your understanding of Catholic theology principles in this area to such a scenario and exactly why you may or may not accept it as possible.
Warning. The following contains content which may shock some readers. 😉

Being older than dirt, this cranky granny worked in a free atmosphere where every proposition, hypothesis, or proposal is potentially possible. Like the Black Swans in Australia. In other words, your scenario is a shocking possibility.



From post 490 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11570715&postcount=490

At one of our meetings back in the days of dinosaurs, all potential possible solutions to a difficult problem were put on a blackboard. What may be shocking is that the meeting participants added good features to each proposal. People, being human, usually know all the bad features to any proposal. This meeting was longer than usual because there were a few proposals that seemed to have a balance between the negative and the plus. In addition, if one removed one distraction from a proposal and added an affirmative from another one …

I am sure everyone understands what I am describing. In fact, this mixing and matching is similar to what the Catholic Church had to do when it came time to define and clarify Divine Revelation from Holy Scripture and Tradition. And the same situation appears to have happened to the final writer of the first three chapters of Genesis. Please refer to post 597 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11594434&postcount=597

What I would like you to do, believe it or not, is to hold on to your scenario while I get my scenario into some kind of readable shape. Having both scenarios will help readers to freely discern the potential of each.

On my part, this will take time since there are a lot of posts I need to re-read. In addition, there are some family issues which need attention. And I am a slow writer.
 
Additional Note to Post 601
Been away…

GM I don’t really understand your response to my below speculative scenario.
Maybe I have missed something:

The Scenario was:
Is there any intrinsic reason in your theology of the Fall why Adam and Eve could not have had children before they themselves Fell?

And if the above is possible (which I personally see no problem with as God did order them to go forth and multiply before Original Sin) then it would seem possible to have one set of children still in original innocence and another set in original sin?

I would be quite interested in seeing how you apply your understanding of Catholic theology principles in this area to such a scenario and exactly why you may or may not accept it as possible.
Blue Horizon and others.

I put the final paragraph of your post 589 in bold, because I am very interested in how you substantiate your scenario. Will you include the reasoning for this scenario? Looking forward to your response to post 601.
 
Yes. Original Sin.
May I point out that the Catholic Church has the benefit of 20-20 hindsight?

Original Sin principles can be found in the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*. In addition, they can be found throughout this thread. Yesterday, for example.
GM I really do not understand your somewhat terse “answers” - can you explain for dummies?.

Obviously the scenario I give did not actually happen but given the clear pre Fall conditions/theology in Genesis there seems absolutely no reason why it could not have panned out as suggested.

Theologians and lecturers do this all the time, it is a sign of mastery of their topic and enables better understanding for beginners via discussion of the principles and possible implications.

I can see that you personally seem to have a deep-seated resistance to this approach. In fact you seem mildly insulted even :eek:.
I am somewhat surprised at this if that is the case as you have insights that would be better demonstrated and understood if you could do so.

Are you able to articulate your unwillingness to theologise like this?
 
My response to the above scenario would begin with the view that in that state of holiness, Adam (as Adam and Eve) more than represented humanity. They were in such unity with what it meant to be human, that their decision was our decision. If there had been offspring before the fall, given what has been revealed, they would have gotten together and had a picnic eating of that fruit.
 
Here is what I wrote in post 519.
“…the writer searched the “Divine truths” handed down generation to generation.”
The Hebrew people were entrusted with the truths of human history… the Hebrews retained the one God of their ancestors… it was time to preserve their history in “official” writing. Thus, they had to search back for their beginning story which had been handed down from generation to generation.
GM you haven’t really answered my question.
Can you provide a source (author, Magisterial statement etc…) for the point of view (there are a number I have seen in this area) that you are providing here?

The view you describe here of how the Hebrew race came by the content in Genesis has, to the best of my knowlege, never been blessed or adopted by the Catholic Church as far as I am aware. (I believe the Church has no explicit formal position on the matter).

There are a number of ways of looking at this question and this one is probably the least robust as it appears to contradict a number of hermeneutic principles generally accepted by middle of the road Catholic Scripture Scholars.
 
From GM: Of all the creatures mentioned in the beginning of Genesis, Adam is totally unique.
Ah, now it becomes clear what you really meant.
The problem was your actual statement above is confusing and an objective analytic brain (including your own I hope) would judge it as strictly speaking, incorrect.

Eve is a creature mentioned in the beginning of Genesis, therefore Adam is not unique as you state. However you now make it clear from the CCC ref that what you really meant is that the human race is unique in Genesis. Which indeed it is.

However, I would not try and extrapolate this Catholic doctrine to “prove” that aliens from another planet therefore cannot exist and will therefore never be discovered.
I do not believe Genesis (or the Church) is saying we are that unique.
 
I can see that you personally seem to have a deep-seated resistance to this approach.
OK, I withdraw this particular observation - I just now see you have put this on hold while you do some reaseach.I should really read following posts instead of replying one by one

But there are so many :eek:.
 
GM I really do not understand your somewhat terse “answers” - can you explain for dummies?.

Obviously the scenario I give did not actually happen but given the clear pre Fall conditions/theology in Genesis there seems absolutely no reason why it could not have panned out as suggested.

Theologians and lecturers do this all the time, it is a sign of mastery of their topic and enables better understanding for beginners via discussion of the principles and possible implications.

I can see that you personally seem to have a deep-seated resistance to this approach. In fact you seem mildly insulted even :eek:.
I am somewhat surprised at this if that is the case as you have insights that would be better demonstrated and understood if you could do so.

Are you able to articulate your unwillingness to theologise like this?
Are you accepting or declining my suggestion that you present the scenario from your post 589 alongside the scenario which I will eventually prepare? That way the possibilities of each can be evaluated.

Scenario from post 589
"The Scenario was:
Is there any intrinsic reason in your theology of the Fall why Adam and Eve could not have had children before they themselves Fell?

“And if the above is possible (which I personally see no problem with as God did order them to go forth and multiply before Original Sin) then it would seem possible to have one set of children still in original innocence and another set in original sin?”

I understand your point that the scenario did not actually happen. However, various forms of that scenario have been around for years or at least as long as I have been on CAF.

This is what was said in post 603.
"Obviously the scenario I give did not actually happen but given the clear pre Fall conditions/theology in Genesis there seems absolutely no reason why it could not have panned out as suggested.

“Theologians and lecturers do this all the time, it is a sign of mastery of their topic and enables better understanding for beginners via discussion of the principles and possible implications.”

All I am suggesting is for you is to back up your comments regarding that scenario.

Going back to the OP,
it will be interesting to see if one or both scenarios will lead to the proposition that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.

From Post 1.
"In my humble opinion, it is logical, given the human nature that you and I possess, that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.
Source:* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*.

“Because the Catholic Church holds that a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions (simplified description) does in fact exist–the presupposition for this thread is God as Creator exists.”

Since post 1, the following presupposition has been added. God as Creator interacts with humans.

Please excuse me. I have some work to do.
 
My response to the above scenario would begin with the view that in that state of holiness, Adam (as Adam and Eve) more than represented humanity. They were in such unity with what it meant to be human, that their decision was our decision. If there had been offspring before the fall, given what has been revealed, they would have gotten together and had a picnic eating of that fruit.
That is very insightful!
But does it lean too heavily on a rationalist metaphor/Type approach to “persons” in Genesis where Adam is no longer a real, individual, historical individual (as are Eve and their children) each with their own will and mind?
If we take this approach too strongly we deny humans their God given intrinsic nature.
It is our intrinsic nature, when mature, to choose as individuals and separate ourselves from “the herd”. This choice can be made righteously and in holiness - though most of the time it is indeed done in anger and disobedience and sin.

I agree solidarity is a fundamental virtue/principle in the Garden (as it is for Redemption) but solidarity has an object higher than one’s own species. Solidarity is primarily to God. There is good solidarity and bad solidarity.

I therefore believe “solidarity” is tied up in choice, and therefore in original Sin itself.
I am dubious that we have to hold that the innocent pre-Fall human species is by nature so tied to a species-solidarity (however that might be caused) that what Adam is said to choose all must be said to so choose.

Yes it is intrinsic to original sin that both divine and inter-species solidarity was lost.
I might almost agree that this choosing to be an individual is at the core of sin.

But not quite.
There is nothing sinful about choosing to be an individual per se.
In fact that choice is at the heart of what it means to possess human nature.
To mature is to make decisions for ourselves by our own lights and not blindly follow the herd. So if there were multiple pre-Fall humans then the Fall of its Patriach does not seem to intrinsically necessitate all must Fall.
Yes, future progeny of the Fallen will be born Fallen (OS is spread by generation)
Yes, the immature present progeny will probably Fall due to the natural solidarity you mention and the poor example of the patriach.
But I cannot see an intrinsic reason why mature pre-Fallen progeny must Fall.
It is in the nature of mature innocent humans to choose, and that includes choosing who to be in solidarity with.
Solidarity with the Creator is a clear and present good greater than solidarity with members of one’s own race who are no longer in solidarity with their Creator. A terrible choice, but a possible and clearly proper one nevertheless.

It is interesting that we have a much better example of this scenario in the angels at their first moment of creation. It seems that Lucifer was also the “Patriach” of all the angels (the one most perfect in nature and therefore closest to God by both grace and nature). We could expect the species-solidarity principle you raise to work in this scenario also.
(I accept the situation is not quite the same as humans. Each angel is in fact its own species but clearly there is a similar "angelic-solidarity/community principle operating ).

Yet not all the angels Fell with Lucifer.
Free choice to be “individuals” (to break solidarity) operated within all the angels
This in itself is not the sin - it is a good freedom given by angelic nature (as it is in humans). The sin is to choose personal or species-solidarity over Divine solidarity.
Thats my take anyhow.
 
Are you accepting or declining my suggestion that you present the scenario from your post 589 alongside the scenario which I will eventually prepare?
GM you may not have read my post #608 when you composed this.

Yes no prob - but can we set aside your pet concerns for the moment?
E.g. “that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church” and “God as a Creator interacts with humans.” I find the constant concern to theologically converge our discussions back to these points somewhat distracting and non-sequitorial at times.

If that means you want to start another thread onthis then thats fine too.

WRT what is the basis for my scenario? Pretty obvious really…how it should have panned out if Adam had obeyed God!

Namely, “do not eat of the TOTKOGAE”.
Namely, “go forth and multiply”.
Namely, “you may (or presumably may not) eat of the Tree of Life.”

And additionally faith and reason:
Namely, Genesis speaks of historical individuals not Types.
Namely, human’s by their very nature have the ability to choose God or not.
Therefore any individual descendant of this pre-Fallen species can sin (ie make the first “original sin”) at any time. Only in purgatory or heaven is sin impossible.
 
GM you may not have read my post #608 when you composed this.

Yes no prob - but can we set aside your pet concerns for the moment?
E.g. “that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church” and “God as a Creator interacts with humans.” I find the constant concern to theologically converge our discussions back to these points somewhat distracting and non-sequitorial at times.

If that means you want to start another thread onthis then thats fine too.

WRT what is the basis for my scenario? Pretty obvious really…how it should have panned out if Adam had obeyed God!

Namely, “do not eat of the TOTKOGAE”.
Namely, “go forth and multiply”.
Namely, “you may (or presumably may not) eat of the Tree of Life.”

And additionally faith and reason:
Namely, Genesis speaks of historical individuals not Types.
Namely, human’s by their very nature have the ability to choose God or not.
Therefore any individual descendant of this pre-Fallen species can sin (ie make the first “original sin”) at any time. Only in purgatory or heaven is sin impossible.
May I gently point out that your original scenario had the time frame both before and after the Fall. Now you have changed to Adam obeying God; therefore, there would be no Fall, no Original Sin. (CCC, 404; CCC, 356; CCC, 1730-1731)
“WRT what is the basis for my scenario? Pretty obvious really…how it should have panned out if Adam had obeyed God!”
Scenario from post 589
"The Scenario was:
Is there any intrinsic reason in your theology of the Fall why Adam and Eve could not have had children before** they themselves Fell?**

"And if the above is possible (which I personally see no problem with as God did order them to go forth and multiply before Original Sin) then it would seem possible to have one set of children still in original innocence and another set in original sin?"

This is why I recommend the consistency of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition and also the true statement, “God as Creator interacts with humans.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top