Adam & Logic

[grannymh]

Thanks.
Yes grace over comes sin, but we still fall into sin. I’m not thinking about small sins, veinal sin, but mortal sin. Sin that if a person has been educated and knows what the church teachs about mortal sin and grace, they can think that they have recieved grace, and they know then that what their action towards another person would cause harm mentally or physcially to the other, they still fall into mortal sin.
I thought almost that, sin can win over grace sometimes, because the will of the person is weak, they haven’t let grace work within them?
A&E had grace but fell, so humans were always going to fall, the first two parents are the example of this. So could they really have been any way supernatural different to us, no, I don’t think.
Only Mary was free from sin and Jesus himself.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t bother trying to remain in grace, but do we (myself included) understand what grace does or how it should work, how to be open to it so it fills us.

The problem here is that “grace” is not some kind of lump.

Catholicism emphasizes the difference between Sanctifying Grace and actual grace. Yes, there are two different types of grace.

The State of Sanctifying Grace is our participation in the life of God here on planet earth. (Source of information. CCC, 356; CCC 1730;
CCC, 1999-2000) We receive this State of Sanctifying Grace via the Sacrament of Baptism. (CCC, 405)

Adam and Eve were born in the State of Sanctifying Grace aka Original Holiness. They were deprived of the State of Original Holiness by the action of Original Sin. (CCC, 397-400) Even in their state of separation from God, they still had the freedom to return to a holy relationship with their Creator. Upon their death, they remained in the realm of the dead aka the abode of the dead until Christ’s Resurrection. Christ did not descend into Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek to free the “damned”. He came to free the just who had died before Him. (Source of information. CCC, 631-637)

Because the State of Sanctifying Grace is available to all (CCC, 1257, last sentence; CCC, 1260), all descendants of Adam and Eve have the opportunity to share and remain in God’s life in the State of Sanctifying Grace. That is why this statement “A&E had grace but fell, so humans were always going to fall” is misleading. Just because Adam and Eve lost their State of Original Holiness aka Sanctifying Grace, there is absolutely no reason why subsequent humans must lose this state. Subsequent humans have the same freedom to choose their state as Adam did. But this freedom is not the guarantee that all humans are going to imitate Adam’s mistake. (CCC, 1730-1732, operative word possibility)

Actual grace is like a zap of supernatural strength which helps us to do good and avoid evil. Actual grace is God’s immediate response to our cry for help, often before we realize that we do need God’s help. Actual graces refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of our conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification. Reception of the Sacraments gives us needed graces to live our lives in the State of Sanctifying Grace.
(Source of information. CCC, 2000;CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC, Index, Grace, page 801)

Did Adam receive actual graces when he was tempted. Because Catholicism teaches that Adam was a real breathing human like we are, Adam did receive actual graces; but, like many of us, he ignored them and chose to do his own thing. As CCC, 397 begins “Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart …”

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[fhansen]

Thanks.
Yes grace over comes sin, but we still fall into sin. I’m not thinking about small sins, veinal sin, but mortal sin. Sin that if a person has been educated and knows what the church teachs about mortal sin and grace, they can think that they have recieved grace, and they know then that what their action towards another person would cause harm mentally or physcially to the other, they still fall into mortal sin.
I thought almost that, sin can win over grace sometimes, because the will of the person is weak, they haven’t let grace work within them?
A&E had grace but fell, so humans were always going to fall, the first two parents are the example of this. So could they really have been any way supernatural different to us, no, I don’t think.
Only Mary was free from sin and Jesus himself.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t bother trying to remain in grace, but do we (myself included) understand what grace does or how it should work, how to be open to it so it fills us.

To add my own thoughts to granny’s post: In Catholic teaching our own proper disposition: contrition in the case of Reconciliation-is a necessary ingredient in the sacrament’s being efficacious. We can be disposed in this way to a greater or lesser degree, more or less sincere, more or less receptive of grace. So a sacrament’s effectiveness can range anywhere from not at all effective to extremely so, regardless of our own opinion of the matter at the time.

God draws us by His grace into conformity with His will but He never forces us into it; grace is always resistible in Catholic thought. And a person may repent many times of a sin and finally, at some point where their contrition is deeper, their motivation more sincere, the timing is right, grace finally completely overcomes the sin. Fortunately God’s patient with us; justification/sanctification is a process- we’re a work of His after all.

 

[grannymh]

From the Opening Post

In my humble opinion, it is logical, given the human nature that you and I possess, that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.
Source:* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*.

Because the Catholic Church holds that a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions (simplified description) does in fact exist–the presupposition for this thread is God as Creator exists.

Using the Deductive Method of Reasoning, we worked with different ideas – finally concluding with three axioms:

1. God as Creator exists.

Therefore,
2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.

Therefore,
3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
From what we learned about Adam, from what we understand about Catholic doctrines, and from various proposals, I am confident that enough facts can be attached to these three axioms as evidence that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church

 

[simpleas]

The problem here is that “grace” is not some kind of lump.

Catholicism emphasizes the difference between Sanctifying Grace and actual grace. Yes, there are two different types of grace.

The State of Sanctifying Grace is our participation in the life of God here on planet earth. (Source of information. CCC, 356; CCC 1730;
CCC, 1999-2000) We receive this State of Sanctifying Grace via the Sacrament of Baptism. (CCC, 405)

Adam and Eve were born in the State of Sanctifying Grace aka Original Holiness. They were deprived of the State of Original Holiness by the action of Original Sin. (CCC, 397-400) Even in their state of separation from God, they still had the freedom to return to a holy relationship with their Creator. Upon their death, they remained in the realm of the dead aka the abode of the dead until Christ’s Resurrection. Christ did not descend into Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek to free the “damned”. He came to free the just who had died before Him. (Source of information. CCC, 631-637)

Because the State of Sanctifying Grace is available to all (CCC, 1257, last sentence; CCC, 1260), all descendants of Adam and Eve have the opportunity to share and remain in God’s life in the State of Sanctifying Grace. That is why this statement “A&E had grace but fell, so humans were always going to fall” is misleading. Just because Adam and Eve lost their State of Original Holiness aka Sanctifying Grace, there is absolutely no reason why subsequent humans must lose this state. Subsequent humans have the same freedom to choose their state as Adam did. But this freedom is not the guarantee that all humans are going to imitate Adam’s mistake. (CCC, 1730-1732, operative word possibility)

Actual grace is like a zap of supernatural strength which helps us to do good and avoid evil. Actual grace is God’s immediate response to our cry for help, often before we realize that we do need God’s help. Actual graces refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of our conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification. Reception of the Sacraments gives us needed graces to live our lives in the State of Sanctifying Grace.
(Source of information. CCC, 2000;CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC, Index, Grace, page 801)

Did Adam receive actual graces when he was tempted. Because Catholicism teaches that Adam was a real breathing human like we are, Adam did receive actual graces; but, like many of us, he ignored them and chose to do his own thing. As CCC, 397 begins “Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart …”

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Thanks for this. I maybe more concerned with the teaching on O.S rather than proving that Adam and Eve existed. (I believe they did, I think you know) So I’ve popped up a new thread.
This one may close, and I’m not finished
By the way, I don’t see grace as “some kind of lump”

 

[simpleas]

To add my own thoughts to granny’s post: In Catholic teaching our own proper disposition: contrition in the case of Reconciliation-is a necessary ingredient in the sacrament’s being efficacious. We can be disposed in this way to a greater or lesser degree, more or less sincere, more or less receptive of grace. So a sacrament’s effectiveness can range anywhere from not at all effective to extremely so, regardless of our own opinion of the matter at the time.

God draws us by His grace into conformity with His will but He never forces us into it; grace is always resistible in Catholic thought. And a person may repent many times of a sin and finally, at some point where their contrition is deeper, their motivation more sincere, the timing is right, grace finally completely overcomes the sin. Fortunately God’s patient with us; justification/sanctification is a process- we’re a work of His after all.

Thanks Fhansen, this is helpful to me

 

[grannymh]

Thanks for this. I maybe more concerned with the teaching on O.S rather than proving that Adam and Eve existed. (I believe they did, I think you know) So I’ve popped up a new thread.
This one may close, and I’m not finished
By the way, I don’t see grace as “some kind of lump”

Of course, I know your belief in the existence of Adam and Eve.

I am glad to see that you have continued your interests in a new thread.
Thank you.

“Augustinism and Pelagianism” in the Philosophy Forum

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=867626

 

[grannymh]

Painting by
Diego Velazquez

 

[Peter_Plato]

I think you’ll get a kick out of this grannymh:

tofspot.blogspot.ca/2011/09/adam-and-eve-and-ted-and-alice.html

 

[grannymh]

Going back through the thread, there is some basic information in post 874, page 59. There is also a series of information posts 884-888, pages 59-60.

Post 992 above contains the final three axioms of this thread.

1. God as Creator exists.

Therefore,
2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.

Therefore,
3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.

Axiom 3 is the “take home message”

Because God interacts personally with each individual, it becomes easier to view God as interacting with the first individual human. Catholic doctrines insist that only the first individual human aka Adam could properly commit Original Sin. We can work backwards from Romans 5: 12-21 in order to understand the Divinity of Jesus Christ necessitated by the first human individual’s original Sin.

 

[simpleas]

Going back through the thread, there is some basic information in post 874, page 59. There is also a series of information posts 884-888, pages 59-60.

Post 992 above contains the final three axioms of this thread.

1. God as Creator exists.

Therefore,
2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.

Therefore,
3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.

Axiom 3 is the “take home message”

Because God interacts personally with each individual, it becomes easier to view God as interacting with the first individual human. Catholic doctrines insist that only the first individual human aka Adam could properly commit Original Sin. We can work backwards from Romans 5: 12-21 in order to understand the Divinity of Jesus Christ necessitated by the first human individual’s original Sin.

Romans 5: 12-21 Just reflecting on this passage, It is describing spiritual death isn’t it?

I ask because a while back (not sure if it was this thread or another) we were discussing Adam and Eve being immortal, and you asked me if I thought that humans could have lived forever (or something along those lines, I forget the actual conversation) because if so the world would have been over run…But obviously we are told that A&E could have lived forever with their decendands if they had chosen not to sin.
So if we don’t really think that humans could have lived forever, why would think that our bodies will be resurrected after bodily death to live eternally?

Although I’ve said the creed for years, I’ve always thought of the resurrection of the dead as being our souls living eternally through Christ in the world to come.

 

[grannymh]

I think you’ll get a kick out of this grannymh:

tofspot.blogspot.ca/2011/09/adam-and-eve-and-ted-and-alice.html

Certainly, the author has a creative sense of humor. I did notice that some basic Catholic teachings, which would dampen the article’s style, were avoided.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 5: 12-21 Just reflecting on this passage, It is describing spiritual death isn’t it?

I ask because a while back (not sure if it was this thread or another) we were discussing Adam and Eve being immortal, and you asked me if I thought that humans could have lived forever (or something along those lines, I forget the actual conversation) because if so the world would have been over run…But obviously we are told that A&E could have lived forever with their decendands if they had chosen not to sin.
So if we don’t really think that humans could have lived forever, why would think that our bodies will be resurrected after bodily death to live eternally?

Although I’ve said the creed for years, I’ve always thought of the resurrection of the dead as being our souls living eternally through Christ in the world to come.

Adam & Eve could’ve lived forever. But the world would’ve been eternally overrun by sin if they’d lived forever after the Fall. Both physical and spiritual death came upon man with Adam’s first sin.

 

[grannymh]

Romans 5: 12-21 Just reflecting on this passage, It is describing spiritual death isn’t it?

I ask because a while back (not sure if it was this thread or another) we were discussing Adam and Eve being immortal, and you asked me if I thought that humans could have lived forever (or something along those lines, I forget the actual conversation) because if so the world would have been over run…But obviously we are told that A&E could have lived forever with their decendands if they had chosen not to sin.
So if we don’t really think that humans could have lived forever, why would think that our bodies will be resurrected after bodily death to live eternally?

Although I’ve said the creed for years, I’ve always thought of the resurrection of the dead as being our souls living eternally through Christ in the world to come.

Both Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22 compare Adam with Jesus Christ. In contrast to Adam whose Original Sin lost the gift of immortality, Jesus Christ conquered the subsequent bodily death with His Resurrection. “For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”. … “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1Corinthians 15: 50-55)

Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s saving grace, erases Original Sin. With this Sacrament, we share in the Divine life of the Trinity. It is the obedience of Christ hanging bleeding on His cross which gives us an abundance of grace. (CCC, 405; CCC, 1999-2000;
CCC, Glossary. Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

Regarding Adam and Eve living forever with their descendants if Adam had refused Satan’s temptation. Adam’s nature is an unique unification of both the material and spiritual worlds. Like the rest of the creatures with material anatomies, Adam would have died naturally. God, in His goodness, gave Adam and Eve the gift of immortality with this condition – As long as Adam remained in the Divine intimacy of his Creator, he and Eve would not have to suffer or die. Unfortunately, the tragic consequences of Original Sin included the entrance of bodily death into human history. (CCC, 376; CCC, 399-400)

Adam and Eve were called by their Creator to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. They were destined for Heaven in the presence of the Beatific Vision. (CCC, 356; CCC, 1028)

How would obedient Adam and Eve get to Heaven from the Garden of Eden is the unanswerable question.

 

[grannymh]

I think you’ll get a kick out of this grannymh:

tofspot.blogspot.ca/2011/09/adam-and-eve-and-ted-and-alice.html

I have been thinking about how to respond. Yes, there is some clever humor which I did enjoy. And “Tommy Aquino” is quoted which is appropriate for a Philosophy Forum. It took me a bit to recognize that God, Who is prominent in the first three chapters of Genesis, was either missing in action or described poetically. From the link – Poor Adam had no one to teach him. “Death became true when Adam realized it. What a bummer that must have been. He probably invented whiskey next.” I have to admit I did laugh at the whiskey idea. :blushing:

I thought about this thread’s third axiom “God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.” and made my decision. This may sound as odd as some of the link’s references to traditional doctrine. My response is no response because in general there is not enough real substance for a decent discussion from a Catholic position.

 

[tonyrey]

Both Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22 compare Adam with Jesus Christ. In contrast to Adam whose Original Sin lost the gift of immortality, Jesus Christ conquered the subsequent bodily death with His Resurrection. “For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”. … “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1Corinthians 15: 50-55)

Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s saving grace, erases Original Sin. With this Sacrament, we share in the Divine life of the Trinity. It is the obedience of Christ hanging bleeding on His cross which gives us an abundance of grace. (CCC, 405; CCC, 1999-2000;
CCC, Glossary. Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

Regarding Adam and Eve living forever with their descendants if Adam had refused Satan’s temptation. Adam’s nature is an unique unification of both the material and spiritual worlds. Like the rest of the creatures with material anatomies, Adam would have died naturally. God, in His goodness, gave Adam and Eve the gift of immortality with this condition – As long as Adam remained in the Divine intimacy of his Creator, he and Eve would not have to suffer or die. Unfortunately, the tragic consequences of Original Sin included the entrance of bodily death into human history. (CCC, 376; CCC, 399-400)

Adam and Eve were called by their Creator to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. They were destined for Heaven in the presence of the Beatific Vision. (CCC, 356; CCC, 1028)

How would obedient Adam and Eve get to Heaven from the Garden of Eden is the unanswerable question.

The problem disappears in the light of the Catechism’s view of natural evil:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

Death is surely the outstanding limitation of life on this planet. Sin led to **spiritual **death. If our ancestors hadn’t sinned they wouldn’t have disappeared when they died because like us they were made in God’s image and likeness. On the other hand they wouldn’t have needed to be redeemed. We can only speculate about the nature of their life in heaven if there had been no Felix Culpa but even evil has been transformed by His love into a source of greater joy. Whether we sin or not our Creator does not change:

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.

Romans 8:38

Wonderful words…

 

[Ben_Quincy]

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Thank you for participating. Feel free to start a new thread.