Adam, Sin, and death before Adam

  • Thread starter Thread starter nablaise
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

nablaise

Guest
If Death entered the world through Sin, And Sin entered through Adam, then no creature ever died before Adam, meaning before about 6000 years according to the Bible (and the age of Adam).

Wouldn’t it be heresy to believe that any creature died anytime before ~ 6000 years?

What do you think?
 
Death for humans only - Adam had no power to affect other species by his decision to sin or otherwise.

And if no creature died, then it implies that all creatures would in fact need salvation when Adam sinned, that all had immortal souls etc etc. Not so.

Remember that animals were always designed to be food (meat) for us, from the beginning. And therefore to die.

Besides which - where on earth do you get the 6,000 years from? Death entered the world THE MOMENT Adam sinned - after all, he and Eve were doomed to die themselves. So would every creature alive at the time of the sin and forever after.

And there wasn’t 6,000 years between the creation of earth/animals and man’s sin according to the Bible, rather 6 days.
 
nablaise said:
If Death entered the world through Sin, And Sin entered through Adam, then no creature ever died before Adam, meaning before about 6000 years according to the Bible (and the age of Adam).

Wouldn’t it be heresy to believe that any creature died anytime before ~ 6000 years?

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I do believe that sin entered through Adam as for death, animals have no eternal soul so death among animals probably existed
 
LilyM said:
Death for humans only - Adam had no power to affect other species by his decision to sin or otherwise.

And if no creature died, then it implies that all creatures would in fact need salvation when Adam sinned, that all had immortal souls etc etc. Not so.

Remember that animals were always designed to be food (meat) for us, from the beginning. And therefore to die.

Besides which - where on earth do you get the 6,000 years from? Death entered the world THE MOMENT Adam sinned - after all, he and Eve were doomed to die themselves. So would every creature alive at the time of the sin and forever after.

And there wasn’t 6,000 years between the creation of earth/animals and man’s sin according to the Bible, rather 6 days.
Click to expand...
I do believe his referring the age of the earth which is the also the year Adam was created. The Douay-Rheims has a great chronology that details this
 
The death that God means flows from seperation from Himself. The entire creation suffers this death. As expressed ’ all creation groans in waiting for the sons of God to be revealed’.

Seperation of soul and body doesn’t satisfy the entire scope of the meaning of death. That being so opens the possibility that the end of earthly life for an individual animal isn’t a consequence of the death which is the consequence of sin.
 
The garden of Eden was very different from the world we know today. It had no death. The world we live in today is the world beyond the garden. Eden probably wasn’t even on Earth, in my opinion.
 
tobinatorstark said:
I do believe his referring the age of the earth which is the also the year Adam was created. The Douay-Rheims has a great chronology that details this
Click to expand...
My understanding is that the age of the earth was the age FROM creation (including creation of man - on the sixth day as the Bible states) TO the present day (ie till 1600 for the compilers of the Douay-Rheims).

IE that the ENTIRE earth was 6,000 years old from go to whoah, not that it existed for 6,000 years prior to Adam. I’ve seen similar chronologies that indicate that it was created about 4,000 BC, no?

What ‘chronology’ was there before man was created? The animals and plants didn’t change (unless you believe in evolution in which case young-earth is a hooey) and didn’t leave any record of their generations or lifespans or what have you.
 
LilyM said:
My understanding is that the age of the earth was the age FROM creation (including creation of man - on the sixth day as the Bible states) TO the present day (ie till 1600 for the compilers of the Douay-Rheims).

IE that the ENTIRE earth was 6,000 years old from go to whoah, not that it existed for 6,000 years prior to Adam. I’ve seen similar chronologies that indicate that it was created about 4,000 BC, no?

What ‘chronology’ was there before man was created? The animals and plants didn’t change (unless you believe in evolution in which case young-earth is a hooey) and didn’t leave any record of their generations or lifespans or what have you.
Click to expand...
The chronology of the OT insinuated that Adam was created the same year that the earth was formed. This found in the Douay-Rheims released by Baronius Press. A.M (year of the world Anno Mundi) 1 List Adam as the first man and in the sacred history section under year 1 list creation of heaven and earth as well as all creatures and plants. No I do not believe in evolution and never will. Those that do believe in evolution have justified their cause as well though. I believe that we have a young earth roughly 6000 years. Give or take a few. Weather this chronology that my D-R has is accurate or not, it certainly makes it point the Catholic Church doesn’t require one to believe in a young earth or old, but to accept that God created all things. Sorry if I may have confused you
 
tobinatorstark said:
The chronology of the OT insinuated that Adam was created the same year that the earth was formed. This found in the Douay-Rheims released by Baronius Press. A.M (year of the world Anno Mundi) 1 List Adam as the first man and in the sacred history section under year 1 list creation of heaven and earth as well as all creatures and plants. No I do not believe in evolution and never will. Those that do believe in evolution have justified their cause as well though. I believe that we have a young earth roughly 6000 years. Give or take a few. Weather this chronology that my D-R has is accurate or not, it certainly makes it point the Catholic Church doesn’t require one to believe in a young earth or old, but to accept that God created all things. Sorry if I may have confused you
Click to expand...
No confusion. I thought that was what it would say. In which case, original sin and death accompanying are basically as old as creation itself and there is no conundrum - just misunderstanding on the part of the OP. 🤷

And I’m cheerfully agnostic on the point of evolution v literal creationism. Scientific theories are always imperfect and falsifiable on the one hand, but on the other scripture isn’t, I don’t think, meant to be read as a science text.
 
LilyM said:
No confusion. I thought that was what it would say. In which case, original sin and death accompanying are basically as old as creation itself and there is no conundrum - just misunderstanding on the part of the OP. 🤷

And I’m cheerfully agnostic on the point of evolution v literal creationism. Scientific theories are always imperfect and falsifiable on the one hand, but on the other scripture isn’t, I don’t think, meant to be read as a science text.
Click to expand...
I am one of those that has been taught creationism all my life. I also have been taught evolution and have found it hard to accept. Not that part of evolution couldn’t be true, but it seems so fake. Anyway, I try to lead others on a right path.
 
tobinatorstark said:
I am one of those that has been taught creationism all my life. I also have been taught evolution and have found it hard to accept. Not that part of evolution couldn’t be true, but it seems so fake. Anyway, I try to lead others on a right path.
Click to expand...
As StA aptly stated - All Catholics are Creationists.
 
buffalo said:
What Catholic does not believe God is the Creator?
Click to expand...
Creationism is one thing. There are Catholics that do believe in Evolution and that doesn’t recognize God creating the universe. So therefore not every Catholic can be considered a Creationist. There may be some on this forum. It is like saying that all Protestants don’t pray the Rosary. There is at least one on this forum that does.
 
tobinatorstark said:
Creationism is one thing. There are Catholics that do believe in Evolution and that doesn’t recognize God creating the universe. So therefore not every Catholic can be considered a Creationist. There may be some on this forum. It is like saying that all Protestants don’t pray the Rosary. There is at least one on this forum that does.
Click to expand...
Then they would be CINO.
 
I am sorry about the ‘6000’, the show I was listening to was claiming that ‘since Earth was created first’ and Adam (almost first since only five days before…) brought death in Creation, then no animal died bofore Adam’s sin.

So the point here is mostly about sin and death and how it affected the animal world.
400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286
Click to expand...
  • CCC
Click to expand...
It appears that the Church believes that Creation is corrupted because of Adam’s sin. Animal die because of corruption (decay) or do they ?

The chronology become relevant again when we assume this belief that animal start dying after Adam had sinned. So if we count back to Adam (which can be done if we read the age of Adam), we can tell at least when animal started dying.

And no, animal were not meant to be our food in the beginning. Adam and Eve were vegetarian:
[29] And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.
Click to expand...
Genesis 1
Click to expand...
All animals were vegetarian as well :
[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
Click to expand...
Genesis 1
Click to expand...
God bless
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top