Adam the robot and free will

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How could Adam truly have had free will if God created him instantly from scratch as an adult? He would not have gone through childhood and been influenced by nature and nurture. He simply appeared as a fully formed adult devoid of the usual process of maturation and learning; thus God has to literally program him with a certain intellect, personality, propensities etc. because he would not have formed these through life experience or even parental genes. Whatever decision he made to disobey God could not have truly been free will so how can he be blamed?
 
moondawg said:
How could Adam truly have had free will if God created him instantly from scratch as an adult? He would not have gone through childhood and been influenced by nature and nurture. He simply appeared as a fully formed adult devoid of the usual process of maturation and learning
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Your claim here asserts that children have no free will. Ever seen a two-year-old – who hasn’t “gone through childhood and been influenced by nature and nurture” – tell their mom “NO!” to some direction she’s given them? 😉
 
moondawg said:
How could Adam truly have had free will if God created him instantly from scratch as an adult? He would not have gone through childhood and been influenced by nature and nurture. He simply appeared as a fully formed adult devoid of the usual process of maturation and learning; thus God has to literally program him with a certain intellect, personality, propensities etc. because he would not have formed these through life experience or even parental genes. Whatever decision he made to disobey God could not have truly been free will so how can he be blamed?
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We were all created with certain levels of intellect, personality, propensities, etc. None of these have anything to do with free will. Free will is what makes us sentient beings–we have the ability to discern good from evil, unlike the animals who were created without this ability. Adam could discern good from evil, as could Eve. They chose evil over good in choosing to disobey God’s only command which could bring sin into their lives. It was definitely their fault.
 
moondawg said:
How could Adam truly have had free will if God created him instantly from scratch as an adult? He would not have gone through childhood and been influenced by nature and nurture. He simply appeared as a fully formed adult devoid of the usual process of maturation and learning; thus God has to literally program him with a certain intellect, personality, propensities etc. because he would not have formed these through life experience or even parental genes. Whatever decision he made to disobey God could not have truly been free will so how can he be blamed?
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God gave Adam certain preternatural gifts. He was not programmed like a robot and had free will. The same with Eve. That is why they had the capacity to disobey one of God’s commands to them. We believe there is an actual being called the Devil or Satan. They certainly knew God directly and this creature that spoke to them was clearly not God. They chose to believe his words instead of being faithful and obedient to God.

Ed
 
I’m not sure why we should always think of Adam and Eve as adults at first creation. God could have made them as babies/children and allowed them to grow and experience the world around them.
 
simpleas said:
I’m not sure why we should always think of Adam and Eve as adults at first creation. God could have made them as babies/children and allowed them to grow and experience the world around them.
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That’s certainly possible. Although that wouldn’t have made any difference regarding their free will. 🙂
 
Also bear in mind that Adam when he was created…and before the fall…had a different nature. Adam’s nature was not the same we have (of course before the fall) and before this time he lacked concuspiencense, because of this it is very likely that, unlike us, he would have not been influences by nurture or nature or if he had, the influence would have been minimal. I think you are seeing Adam as a human similar to us at creation and he wasn’t. So many of the things we are influenced by did not affect him and he probably had a different level of intellect and knowledge. He probably did not require our process of learning due to this different nature. Now The extent of what was his intellect is impossible for us to know because we did not get to see it but what we do know is that his nature was not the same as ours so many of the things we require and affect us may not have had affected him and he may have not needed it.
 
Della said:
We were all created with certain levels of intellect, personality, propensities, etc. None of these have anything to do with free will. Free will is what makes us sentient beings–we have the ability to discern good from evil, unlike the animals who were created without this ability. Adam could discern good from evil, as could Eve. They chose evil over good in choosing to disobey God’s only command which could bring sin into their lives. It was definitely their fault.
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If youve ever been around animals for any significant time, you would find they DO indeed recognize good and evil, plus, look at all the accounts of peoples pets growling, barking, at certain supernatural events, (ghosts, etc.) animals can even sense these things presence when humans cannot, there are quite a few accounts of dogs growling at an empty room or an empty space in a room…they can sense many things that humans cannot, and they are smart enough to KNOW it is evil, I dont think they can be tricked like humans can, they can just ‘sense’ whether something is good or evil.
 
mikekle said:
If youve ever been around animals for any significant time, you would find they DO indeed recognize good and evil, plus, look at all the accounts of peoples pets growling, barking, at certain supernatural events, (ghosts, etc.) animals can even sense these things presence when humans cannot, there are quite a few accounts of dogs growling at an empty room or an empty space in a room…they can sense many things that humans cannot, and they are smart enough to KNOW it is evil, I dont think they can be tricked like humans can, they can just ‘sense’ whether something is good or evil.
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You misunderstand. Animals cannot will to do good or evil–that is what free will means.
 
Della said:
We were all created with certain levels of intellect, personality, propensities, etc. None of these have anything to do with free will. Free will is what makes us sentient beings–we have the ability to discern good from evil, unlike the animals who were created without this ability. Adam could discern good from evil, as could Eve. They chose evil over good in choosing to disobey God’s only command which could bring sin into their lives. It was definitely their fault.
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Intellect, personality and propensities have nothing to do with free will?? Surely you jest.
 
edwest2 said:
God gave Adam certain preternatural gifts. He was not programmed like a robot and had free will. The same with Eve. That is why they had the capacity to disobey one of God’s commands to them. We believe there is an actual being called the Devil or Satan. They certainly knew God directly and this creature that spoke to them was clearly not God. They chose to believe his words instead of being faithful and obedient to God.

Ed
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Please explain the qualitative difference between “preternatural gifts” and being “programmed”. Whatever preternatural gifts God gives to Adam is the programming.
 
marymary1975 said:
Also bear in mind that Adam when he was created…and before the fall…had a different nature. Adam’s nature was not the same we have (of course before the fall) and before this time he lacked concuspiencense, because of this it is very likely that, unlike us, he would have not been influences by nurture or nature or if he had, the influence would have been minimal. I think you are seeing Adam as a human similar to us at creation and he wasn’t. So many of the things we are influenced by did not affect him and he probably had a different level of intellect and knowledge. He probably did not require our process of learning due to this different nature. Now The extent of what was his intellect is impossible for us to know because we did not get to see it but what we do know is that his nature was not the same as ours so many of the things we require and affect us may not have had affected him and he may have not needed it.
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No matter how many times I read your comments they make no sense.
 
moondawg said:
No matter how many times I read your comments they make no sense.
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She, too, is talking about preternatural gifts. These aren’t ‘programming’, as you claim. Instead, it means that whereas we have “intellects that are darkened and wills that are weakened,” Adam & Eve did not. They could accurately know the truth of what God was asking of them, without an intellect that would try to rationalize it away; and, their wills weren’t burdened by concupiscence (that inclination toward sin that we have), so they truly wanted what God wanted for them.

And, sadly, even with these abilities that outstripped ours, they still sinned. I can see where you are interpreting this as ‘programming’ or ‘limits on free will’, but really, Adam & Eve had free will that was more unfettered than any of us!
 
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