Adam was born how many years ago?

[Pattylt]

You could show me a bad design that was not designed.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[buffalo]

This is an argument AGAINST Intelligent Design, not for it. How can one take seriously the argument that the universe if full or errors and still be designed by an intelligent agent? Hint - I am backing you into a corner. This is the standard way approach to get intelligent design to collapse under scrutiny. It is not a scientific theory, it is simply a way to inject God into the equation. This is why ID has lost in court. It’s not science.

You are confusing ID, the science and ID, the philosophy.

We don’t do science in court.

 

[buffalo]

If so, how to explain that 99% of all species have gone extinct?

The universe was created “good”. The fall put it into a state of decay.

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

[400] The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history .286

 

[buffalo]

Evolution as a theory does not require a designer. For one to claim there is a designer implies Evolution is false, which places it in the realm of science. And when you place it in such a context, it cannot be defended (as I illustrated above).

Evolution as a theory will be just that, a theory and a failed one. It does require the god of buc and blind faith adherence. Evolution is a religion and not science. There is no empirical proof, that is, observable, repeatable and predictable.

ID, the science is making steady progress and is now the better explanation. The top evo’s know it, why don’t you?

 

[buffalo]

The word “forensics” literally contradicts this. Look it up.

That is a great argument for ID. ID looks for forensic evidence of design.

And no, the court does not do science. It interprets evidence presented to make a case and a human being makes a decision? Oh my…

 

[buffalo]

How can one take seriously the argument that the universe if full or errors and still be designed by an intelligent agent?

To try and counter the fine tuned design of the universe atheists escape to the multiverse. Talking about epicycles and violation of parsimony. Wow. This is another blind faith position since scientists acknowledge we will never have proof.

Now show us how you would design your universe.

Would it have creatures? Would they be equal to you?
How would you design the environment?
What would you do to creatures who broke your rules? Would your system have perfect justice? Mercy?
Would you grant free will or would your designed creatures be programmed to worship you?
Could your designed creatures harm each other?
Would your creature be able to adapt to changes?
How would you design survival?

These are just a few.

 

[buffalo]

Hmmm. So when was the Fall then? The earth is 4 billion years old. The Fall must have happened at some point in the timeline, correct?

It has to be 4 billion or you are sol. I do not have that problem.

Very near the beginning.

 

[Pattylt]

Wouldn’t a perfect being be incapable of creating anything imperfect? A and E were not perfect otherwise they couldn’t have sinned. Since original sin didn’t physically change A and E, they should have still been perfectly made. Claiming all the physical imperfections of humanity due to a spiritual flaw makes zero sense.

 

[Zaccheus]

Once more I return. I’ll probably regret it but oh well…here goes.

Obviously, since 99% of all species have gone extinct, the so-called “intelligent” designer is clearly not very intelligent, if at all.

You assume that the ability to go extinct is proof the species was badly designed. I would say neither of us knows enough to be sure that’s true.

According to Christianity, God is incapable of error. If so, how to explain that 99% of all species have gone extinct?

Why is extinction proof that God made mistakes?
Also consider:

The universe was created “good”. The fall put it into a state of decay.

Which would mean God designed the universe perfectly. We, in the persons of Adam and Eve screwed it up.

Wouldn’t a perfect being be incapable of creating anything imperfect?

Why? Does a watch have to be equal to the watchmaker?

A and E were not perfect otherwise they couldn’t have sinned.

Their sin was not a design defect. It was a moral choice. They had perfect control over their own minds and wills. They chose to do the wrong thing

Since original sin didn’t physically change A and E, they should have still been perfectly made.

Original sin deprived them of some of the gifts God gave them. That loss made them vulnerable to physical loss and suffering.

 

[buffalo]

Claiming all the physical imperfections of humanity due to a spiritual flaw makes zero sense.

That is what happened.

The Divine Work of Creation

The Doctrine of Revelation Regarding Man or “Christian Anthropology”

The first man was created by God. (De fide.)

The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)

Man consists of two essential parts--a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)

The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)

Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)

Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)

A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)

The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)

God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)

Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)

The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)

The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)

The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)

Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)

Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)

Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)

Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.

Adam's sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)

Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)

Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)

In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)

Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

 

[Noose001]

You don’t seem to understand the concept of “species”. It is a useful descriptive term based on arbitrary boundaries that emerge from general agreement.

True, useless theories deal with arbitrary things and boundaries. They are a speculation at best.

The concept of species is subjective. If you want to define all living things as being of the same species, you are free to do so, but no one would agree with you.

Wrong and you are contradicting yourself in the next point which i will address. If the concept of species is subjective, then evolution must also be subjective.

That being said, the general definition of species is based on viability of interbreeding. If a creature cannot interbreed with another in the general sense (assuming both are healthy), they are of a different species.

And so my argument stands; if all organisms have the viability to interbreed with their ‘parents’, then there can only be one species in the world.

True or false?

 

[Noose001]

buffalo:

You could show me a bad design that was not designed.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This is a good design as long as it works as intended. Something can only be considered ‘bad design’ if it doesn’t work as intended or doesn’t work at all.

 

[Noose001]

People in this forum constantly claim there is evidence against evolution yet never provide any. Please provide a few specific examples. I can;t take such comments seriously without some facts behind them.

The evidence for evolution is also the evidence against it but let’s try something new; the human language.

The human language, though a trait associated with the sp. Homo sapiens, its origin has nothing to do with mutations and natural selection. The data we have shows that it is acquired from external sources through a process called learning.

 

[Elf01]

Something can only be considered ‘bad design’ if it doesn’t work as intended or doesn’t work at all.

No, I work in software. Code can work but not be well designed.

 

[Noose001]

No, I work in software. Code can work but not be well designed.

‘Work as intended’ is the main phrase; it will be very hard to pin God down on this because you have to understand His intention first before you can criticize the design as ‘not working as intended’.

But i’ll admit that atheism is a design gone wrong because they (atheists) don’t think as God intended.

 

[EndTimes]

Adam was born how many years ago?

God knows the exact “time”

Better to first get to know JESUS to the best of your ability
rather than spending precious time getting side-tracked into
potentionally endless debates via wondering about obscure questions

_

 

[buffalo]

You are correct in that the most obvious counter to the fine-tuned argument is the multiverse, because it is so darn obvious. And it has nothing to do with Atheism - please stop making such meaningless references for effect.

It is the atheism protection mechanism. The multiverse is nothing more than a construct.

It is a search space issue so returning a value of 1 is nonsensical.

Yes, without fine tuning the universe and its mansions would not exist.

 

[buffalo]

But we may find one.

Science of the gaps.

 

[buffalo]

there could be more than one universe.

They could also be fine tuned.

 

[buffalo]

The multiverse construct admits to many possibilities including fake universes and one with a God. Could be this one. Ouch!

Then we still have to ask what is the cause of the multiverse.