But I have been listening, and the evidence you presented has not been adequate. Instead of admitting that you are choosing to ignore me.
Listen, I get it. You want to defend Mormon doctrine, but the issue is that when it was written in the book of Nephi that the fall had to happen in order for there to be Children (says nothing specifically about wisdom) it caused a theological problem. If God wanted the man and woman to multiply, but also didn’t want them to disobey Him then they could not fulfill both commandments. The Mormon solution is to say Adam and Eve chose the lesser of two evils, though both were still evil since they went against God. Basically God set them up to fail. So the only way to fix the second theological problem is to say that God knew they would fail and was ok with that and/or God was really giving them a choice. The problem with both solutions is that neither of them make sense.
If the first is true then God is a God with arbitrary commandments. He left them with two contradicting commandments, and one could not be fulfilled without breaking the other. Either way they would be punished. It would be a completely unfair situation set up by an unfair God.
If the second is true then the scriptures are lying since God gives them the explicit command not to eat the fruit and also to multiply. If it was really a choice then you cannot trust the creation story.
Now here is the reason why you will have a hard time with people on this forum Parker. Without the Book of Nephi there is no dilemma to start with. You will have to create a dilemma like “the need to gain wisdom through suffering” or “the ability to have children”, but that dilemma doesn’t exist when only the bible is taken into account. It won’t work with anyone here and it would be hard to convince anyone.
Now if Mormons have not figured out this dilemma then it is your job to help them out as a Mormon, but don’t create false dilemmas that have never ever been taught or existed for those who do not use the BoM in order for it to seem like everyone has this dilemma.
Questioner,
I chose to ignore you because you did not deal with the issues that I presented in answer to your assertion that Solomon gained wisdom without observation of the world around him.
The dilemma presented in the Bible is there for the reading. Just because you don’t “get it” doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I realize that it isn’t there for you to find–which is just fine. I have been trying to convey that the most important of God’s gifts is the gift of free will and choice–so choose as you wish.
The Book of Mormon does not say the fall had to happen in order for there to be children. It says (2 Nephi 2):
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
The words are “would have had no children”. This is similar to an expression Eve made as recorded in Moses 5:11, that she was glad in that they knew the “joy of our redemption” and otherwise “never should have had seed.”
The words “would” or “should” do not mean the same thing as the word “could”. The words “would” or “should” leave out the “why”, so the “why” could be that Eve was not menstruating until after the fall, or that they did not experience puberty until after the fall, or that Eve had no “desire toward being with Adam in a knowing way, and he with her, until after the fall when they were given those desires.”
But the most important thing you have said is that no one feels any sense of the kind of dilemma I have written about on this thread, so it would seem this thread should be about two pages long, right? (In other words, if people stop asking questions or making comments, I will certainly stop trying to answer the questions.)
Peace to all.
) that there is excruciating pain in childbirth.