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Vico
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I didn’t realize that the Syro-Malankara were united with the Syro-Malabar in Kottayam. How are the liturgical norms managed? (Qurbana of Addai and Mari vs Liturgy of St. James)
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malphono
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Aramis
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The Russians did so in the late 19th or early 20th century. The wife in question retired to a monastery.Do the Orthodox apply them?:dts:
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Aramis
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Only for those who were raised within the ordinariate, but yes. No loophole for non-Anglican Romans…I don’t believe that This is true. My understanding is that the Ordinary can petition Rome for a dispensation from the Latin celibacy norm on a case by case basis - even in the future when a self-sustaining anglican catholic community exists. The dispensation aspect isn’t a good model for the east though
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SyroMalankara
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This is all fine and to be commended. Just one issue. You do not allow anyone to become a member who isn’t born a member. No one can convert in. So what is the point of evangelism if you talk the talk, but once someone wants to join - you send them elsewhere? How is it different than any secular organization that excludes people?
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Peter_J
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To be fair, fijiq48 did address this in our earlier conversation. See here and following.
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SyroMalankara
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The question remains. Say I come to your home, you tell me of its beauty, its wonders, its history and traditions. I meet all your family and friends and begin to think of them as my.own. when you are in my neighborhood, I reciprocate. Now, I move to your neighborhood and start attending your parish, since as you said no one is prevented. Can my daughter marry your son in this parish? Can my son, a lifelong attendee, with a vocation to the Deaconate be incardinated here? Will my wife and I, now worshipping regularly here, be buried in the church cemetery we helped pay for? If so, then the division has no meaning. If not, the division is scandalous, why would my wife have to suddenly go to the SyroMalabar cemetery on the other side of town to bury me, when the parish had no problem cashing all my checks while I was alive?
On the otherhand, should you come to my neighborhood and attend my parish, none of this would ever even come up.
Why would anyone consider this separate but equal treatment Catholic?
On the otherhand, should you come to my neighborhood and attend my parish, none of this would ever even come up.
Why would anyone consider this separate but equal treatment Catholic?
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fijiq48
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Ah I see where your coming from SyroMalankara, but you wouldn’t be cashing any checks because you have not been a member of the diocese. Only members of the diocese have to pay their yearly dues and to be a member of the diocese you must be, once again a Knanaya. Usually the only reason Syro Malabar Catholics and other Christians attend Knanaya Qurbana is if their church is physically too for away. Knanayas do the same with Syro Malabar Churches. Like i posted earlier it is the same relation between Knanayas and Syro Malabar Catholics. Knanayas are not allowed to be buried in SMC cemeteries, Knanayas are not allowed to have any type of vocation in Syro Malabar churches, we cannot become priests and bishops to their people. Let me ask you this do you think it would ever occur that a Knanaya Bishop became the Major Archbishop of the Syro Malabar church, according to them we are members of their church right? But no that would never happen, during the recent election of Mar George Allencherry, I don’t think the Synod even thought of throwing Mar Mathew Moolakattus name into the ballot. So you tell me now, are we equal?
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Peter_J
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I think all this may be a reason that Kottayam hasn’t been granted the status of a sui iuris church. In particular, with each of the existing sui iuris churches, one can be a member of the church if one’s father was a member. Doesn’t have to be both parents. (And even sometimes Catholics join a sui iuris church that *neither *of their parents belonged to.)
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SyroMalankara
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I think you are mistaken. Knanayas do regularly attend and are members of Syro-Malabar Churches and Syro-Malankara Churches. Mor Dioscoros was a Kananya Syriac Orthodox bishop who became Malankara Catholic, and was accepted as a bishop like all others. Knanayas are not prevented from burial in any Syro-Malabar cemetery unless they refuse themselves, nor are they prevented from becoming nuns, priests, bishops, or anything else in either the Malankara or Malabar Churches.
Your example of His Grace Mor Moolakattu is without merit – all Catholic males are ‘eligible’ to be Pope, yet neither I nor your name was in the ballot; are we less equal? Mor Moolakattu wasn’t close to the running because he is not a senior bishop, nor has he had extensive experience working within the Catholic Communion with Latins, Malankara, academics, other Eastern Catholic and non-Catholic Churches.
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fijiq48
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There is a difference between the relationship between Knanaya Jacobites and Jacobites. There is a lot less strife between those two groups than with the Knanaya Catholics and the Syro Malabar Catholics. For example the Knanaya Jacobites are allowed and have a bishop the resides over them in the U.S. The Jacobite Church was kind enough to grant them that honor. Knanaya Catholics petitioned for this but the Syro Malabar Church ignored us. Instead they made it worse by getting all endogamous practices restricted in the U.S for Knanaya Churches.
And no Knanaya men cannot reside over Syro Malabar Diocese. The best example of that is when Mar Mathai Makil was the bishop of the Syro Malabar Diocese of Changanasserry. Now whats written in Syro Malabar History books is that he was “transferred” to Kottayam diocese after petitioning for a Knanaya Diocese. The real history is that the Syro Malabar Catholics could not and would not allow a Knanaya to reside over them and so they petitioned to Rome to have him removed and so he was . It is said that Mar Mathai was highly persecuted by the people of Changanasserry. Afterwords Mar Mathai Makil petitioned for a diocese for Knanayas and Kottayam was erected. After this event no Knanaya man has ever served as bishop over a Syro Malabar diocese. Knanayas are usually made the bad guys, when talking about being buried in the same cemeteries or following endogamy because these are apart of our diocese customs. On the other hand for Syro Malabar Catholics these are not official customs but more community customs.
I do believe Mar Mathew Moolakkattu was eligible to run for Major Archbishop, because he is in fact a senior bishop. He is one of the 5 Metropolitan Archbishops of the Syro Malabar Church and also holds the title of permanent synod member in the Major Archbishops council.
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Vico
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Does anyone posting here know how are the liturgical norms managed for Knanayas? (Qurbana of Addai and Mari vs Liturgy of St. James)
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malphono
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To avoid repetition, here’s a reference to an earlier [post=9791469]post[/post].
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Vico
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Thank you. I see it is a bi-ritual Eparchy having a vicar of the other ritual Church.To avoid repetition, here’s a reference to an earlier [post=9791469]post[/post].
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SyroMalankara
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How do you explain the acceptance of Metropolitan Thomas Mor Dioscoros? No denouncements, no separations. In fact, it is said that Mor Dioscoros was one of Mor Ivanios and Mor Gregorios closest friends. His Grace is buried in St. Mary’s Malankara Syrian Catholic Church outside Thiruvalla in Tirumoolapuram.
Also, Mar Makil’s website marmakil.org/INSTITUTION.asp says he was Apostolic Vicar bishop of Changanaserry for 15 years. While having some disputes with non-Knanaya, he seems to have been successful. I’m sure he had struggles with Knanaya faithful as well - does that mean he was not liked by those claiming to be his own?
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BVMFatima
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