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Chuck1
Guest
Hi I was wondering if you see a clergy member that you don’t know how do you address them like , Father , VIcar ,Reverand ,pastor becuase of all the different denominations how do you know what to address them as ?
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passus
Guest
If we’re talking about different denominations and an individual you do not know, “Reverend” is always appropriate. Pastor means different meanings from one denomination to the next and several Protestant denominations explicitly denounce the use of “Father” as an address. Same for “Vicar,” which is rarely used as an address and while it remans a very special designation in the Catholic Church, is fairly common in the vernacular of the Anglican church.
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Brendan_McCabe
Guest
You ask them who they are.
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IrishAm
Guest
“Sir” (or “ma’am,” in some denominations) is always polite and correct.
J
JReducation
Guest
In the Roman Catholic tradition this can be a little confusing, because we have a greater diversity of male religious and clerics than any of the other Catholic Churches, Orthodox Churches and Protestant Ecclesial communities.
There are some little clues that we (religious and clergy) use, that the lay person usually doesn’t know. Let’s see if I can recall all of them, because they are many.
If the man is wearing a monastic looking habit, Brother is always a safe bet. Only monks and friars wear monastic habits and they are properly religious brothers, even if they are ordained. I realize that most lay people think of a religious brother as different from a priest, but the fact is that many priests are both, priest and brother. I.E. The entire Benedictine family, the Franciscan family, the Dominican family, and the Carmelite family. However, not every religious in these families is a priest, but you won’t know that, because we deliberately wear the same habit and use the same initials after our names. This is because we the fraternal and religious life determines what we are. Whereas, being a priest doesn’t make you a religious. Most priests are not religious. They are secular men just like your brother, husband or son.
If he is wearing a cassock, this gets a little tricky, because lay brothers and clerics (religious and secular) often wear a cassock. You’re good with Father. If the man is lay brother, he will say so.
The Roman collar in the Latin Church is worn by priests, lay brothers, religious brothers, some deacons and major seminarians. That is of no help. Therefore, Sir is appropriae and acceptable. The individual will tell you.
In some religious communities of men we all use the title Brother, Friar or Dom. However, most people don’t know which, unless you know the community. For example, in my community everyone is Brother. The line between the ordained and the non ordained is deliberately blurred to preserve equality and fraternity. The Conventual Franciscans use Friar for the same reason, as do the Franciscans of the Immaculate.
In the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches, this is a little easier. Monks usually wear a veil. You can identify the religious from the secular. Secular clerics and secular deacons do not wear a veil. I’m not sure of the appropriate name for the veil is. In the Eastern Churches priests and deacons are always, Father. Usually, they will call the priest, Father and the deacon is Father Deacon. The Orthodox follow the same custom. Religious brothers are all monks. They have no lay brothers. They are called Brother. However, an Eastern monk (Catholic and Orthodox) can be either a priest or a brother. You simply have to pay close attention or just ask.
In the Protestant communities Reverend is more common than among Catholics and Orthodox. You are safe with that title. There are some communties that use Vicar, Father, Pastor, Reverend or Deacon. Usually, they are not offended if you call them Reverend. Of course if they are wearing a Roman collar, then your goose is cooked, LOL. Everyone wears a Roman collar. The Episcopal and Anglican clergy normally wear a white banded collar or a black collar over a white band, but with a wider gap in the front than the one worn by others. However, the Episcopal and the Anglicans have diversity in titles. Some are more “catholic” and use Father, others lean more toward the Protestant and use Reverend or Vicar.
Finally, we get to the hierarchy. Latin Catholic bishops are Excellency, except in Ireland and the UK where they are either: Doctor or Your Grace, the same as the Anglican bishops. I have also seen Excellency used by Irish and British Catholic bishops. Eastern Catholic bishops do not use Excellency. You call them by their title. Cardinals are always Eminence.
Now that you’re totally confused, good luck.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
There are some little clues that we (religious and clergy) use, that the lay person usually doesn’t know. Let’s see if I can recall all of them, because they are many.
If the man is wearing a monastic looking habit, Brother is always a safe bet. Only monks and friars wear monastic habits and they are properly religious brothers, even if they are ordained. I realize that most lay people think of a religious brother as different from a priest, but the fact is that many priests are both, priest and brother. I.E. The entire Benedictine family, the Franciscan family, the Dominican family, and the Carmelite family. However, not every religious in these families is a priest, but you won’t know that, because we deliberately wear the same habit and use the same initials after our names. This is because we the fraternal and religious life determines what we are. Whereas, being a priest doesn’t make you a religious. Most priests are not religious. They are secular men just like your brother, husband or son.
If he is wearing a cassock, this gets a little tricky, because lay brothers and clerics (religious and secular) often wear a cassock. You’re good with Father. If the man is lay brother, he will say so.
The Roman collar in the Latin Church is worn by priests, lay brothers, religious brothers, some deacons and major seminarians. That is of no help. Therefore, Sir is appropriae and acceptable. The individual will tell you.
In some religious communities of men we all use the title Brother, Friar or Dom. However, most people don’t know which, unless you know the community. For example, in my community everyone is Brother. The line between the ordained and the non ordained is deliberately blurred to preserve equality and fraternity. The Conventual Franciscans use Friar for the same reason, as do the Franciscans of the Immaculate.
In the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches, this is a little easier. Monks usually wear a veil. You can identify the religious from the secular. Secular clerics and secular deacons do not wear a veil. I’m not sure of the appropriate name for the veil is. In the Eastern Churches priests and deacons are always, Father. Usually, they will call the priest, Father and the deacon is Father Deacon. The Orthodox follow the same custom. Religious brothers are all monks. They have no lay brothers. They are called Brother. However, an Eastern monk (Catholic and Orthodox) can be either a priest or a brother. You simply have to pay close attention or just ask.
In the Protestant communities Reverend is more common than among Catholics and Orthodox. You are safe with that title. There are some communties that use Vicar, Father, Pastor, Reverend or Deacon. Usually, they are not offended if you call them Reverend. Of course if they are wearing a Roman collar, then your goose is cooked, LOL. Everyone wears a Roman collar. The Episcopal and Anglican clergy normally wear a white banded collar or a black collar over a white band, but with a wider gap in the front than the one worn by others. However, the Episcopal and the Anglicans have diversity in titles. Some are more “catholic” and use Father, others lean more toward the Protestant and use Reverend or Vicar.
Finally, we get to the hierarchy. Latin Catholic bishops are Excellency, except in Ireland and the UK where they are either: Doctor or Your Grace, the same as the Anglican bishops. I have also seen Excellency used by Irish and British Catholic bishops. Eastern Catholic bishops do not use Excellency. You call them by their title. Cardinals are always Eminence.
Now that you’re totally confused, good luck.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Great as always Brother JR but I do have one small correction.
One way to tell a priest from a deacon in the Slavic Churches is that all priests where a pectoral cross and deacons do not.
Just a note, within the Eastern Catholic Churches there are religious who are not monks such as the Byzantine Franciscans, the best way to address them is to ask how they want to be addressed. In my experience Father works and if they do not want to be addressed that way they will tell you.
All religious (monks) in the Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) are addressed as Father. This is because they are our spiritual fathers. They may not be a priest but they are still addressed as Father.
One way to tell a priest from a deacon in the Slavic Churches is that all priests where a pectoral cross and deacons do not.
Just a note, within the Eastern Catholic Churches there are religious who are not monks such as the Byzantine Franciscans, the best way to address them is to ask how they want to be addressed. In my experience Father works and if they do not want to be addressed that way they will tell you.
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The_Idiot
Guest
Brother JR
It has always been my understanding that in the UK
RC Bishops are addressed as ‘My Lord’
ArchBishops are 'Your Grace ’
and Cardinals 'Your Eminence ’
It has always been my understanding that in the UK
RC Bishops are addressed as ‘My Lord’
ArchBishops are 'Your Grace ’
and Cardinals 'Your Eminence ’
J
JReducation
Guest
Thanks Brother. I did not know this.
Now here’s a volley back at you. The “Byzantine Franciscans” are not really Byzantine. How’s that for confusion?
It’s actually simple.
At the time when the Franciscan rule was written, there were still issues between East and West. Therefore, the rule commands that the order be Latin, not Eastern Catholic.
The Eastern Catholics can join the order and those houses of Eastern Catholic friars have the liturgy in their rites, Ukranian, Chaldean, etc. But they are not Byzantine Franciscans. They are Franciscans who are Eastern Catholics/Byzantine. The rule commands that they become bi-ritual to join the order. This is for the sake of unity. The ordained friars are bi-ritual, except for the deacons. I’m not sure why that is that the deacons are Eastern and not Latin. My guess is that it may have something to do with de-clericalization.
St. Francis commanded all of the houses to be under the Patriarch of the Roman Church. However, Franciscans can erect houses in the East, such as in Greece, Turkey, Ukraine, Mecedonia and the countries of the former Soviet block. Most of those friars are Eastern Catholics, but the houses are under Latin Ministers. Many of the Ministers are bi-ritual.
Usually, you do not assign a Latin friar to a house full of Eastern friars, but you can do it the other way around. Many of the Eastern Catholic friars are assigned to Latin houses. That’s why they have to be bi-ritual.
As far as the titles go, they follow the rule of St. Francis, not the customs of any of the Churches. Those Franciscans who are Eastern Catholics are still called Friar, Brother or Father if they are either priests or superiors (even if he’s not a priest).
You see, I said in my post, “Let’s see if I can recall all of them.” We have too many in the Latin Church.
After I posted I recalled that in Italy, Spain, France and Portugal, Monsignor is a bishop. which is My Lord in English. Father is used for priests who are religious. Priests who are diocesan usually use academic titles: Dr. Professor, Engineer, etc. If they don’t have an academic degree, they are simple Mister, such as Vicent de Paul and John Bosco. The one is Mssr. Vincent and the other is Don Giovanni Bosco or simply Don Bosco. Many goofy Americans think that his first name is Don (Donald).
We used to call secular priests by Mr. in the USA until the mid 1800s. Once a secular man became a deacon he became Rev. Mr. At some point, people began to call diocesan priests by the same title as they call regular priests, Father. It has stuck. Now, many regular priests are going back to Brother or Friar. So that every religious in the house has the same title, wheather he is a priest or not.
Brother David can correct me if I’m wrong. I believe that the Carmelites and the Dominicans are the only friars who not not call their priests Brother or Friar. I know for a fact tha the Dominicans were founded as a clerical order. The Carmelites were not originally a clerical order. That sort of happened through evolution, natural selection and survival of the fittest, kind of thing.
In other words, the clerics took over.The Carthusians always had the Fathers and the Brothers. The rest of us did not have that. That was started by the Jesuits. Everyone followed the custom even though a Jesuit Brother is a lay brother and a Carmelite Brother is not. He’s a religious brother, just like a Carmelite priest. They make the same vows. Whereas, the Jesuit brother does not make the same vows as the Jesuit priest. A Jesuit priest makes solemn vows and the brother makes simple vows.
As time passed everyone though that if you were not ordained, you were a lay brother and the name stuck until today when it’s being challenged, because the vows are not the same. Even the Dominicans call them coadjutor brothers, not lay brothers, because they make solemn vows, not simple vows. The vows are the same as the ordained friars.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
But there is a Byzantine formation for some Franciscans who are part of the Franciscan Friars of the Assumption of the BVM Province (OFM), our last Metropolitan Archbishop of Archeparcy of Pittsburgh, Basil Schott, was one of them.Thanks Brother. I did not know this.
Now here’s a volley back at you. The “Byzantine Franciscans” are not really Byzantine. How’s that for confusion?
It’s actually simple.
At the time when the Franciscan rule was written, there were still issues between East and West. Therefore, the rule commands that the order be Latin, not Eastern Catholic.
The Eastern Catholics can join the order and those houses of Eastern Catholic friars have the liturgy in their rites, Ukranian, Chaldean, etc. But they are not Byzantine Franciscans. They are Franciscans who are Eastern Catholics/Byzantine. The rule commands that they become bi-ritual to join the order. This is for the sake of unity. The ordained friars are bi-ritual, except for the deacons. I’m not sure why that is that the deacons are Eastern and not Latin. My guess is that it may have something to do with de-clericalization.
St. Francis commanded all of the houses to be under the Patriarch of the Roman Church. However, Franciscans can erect houses in the East, such as in Greece, Turkey, Ukraine, Mecedonia and the countries of the former Soviet block. Most of those friars are Eastern Catholics, but the houses are under Latin Ministers. Many of the Ministers are bi-ritual.
Usually, you do not assign a Latin friar to a house full of Eastern friars, but you can do it the other way around. Many of the Eastern Catholic friars are assigned to Latin houses. That’s why they have to be bi-ritual.
As far as the titles go, they follow the rule of St. Francis, not the customs of any of the Churches. Those Franciscans who are Eastern Catholics are still called Friar, Brother or Father if they are either priests or superiors (even if he’s not a priest).
I did look into this group, while initial contact and novitiate would be Latin, everything after would be Byzantine.
Here is their website, Byzantine Franciscans, it seems to imply that there are some who are not bi-ritual.
You are correct on this but it is kind of in flux with the younger Carmelites in my province. Seems we all agree that we are brothers and we like the title Friar.Brother David can correct me if I’m wrong. I believe that the Carmelites and the Dominicans are the only friars who not not call their priests Brother or Friar. I know for a fact tha the Dominicans were founded as a clerical order. The Carmelites were not originally a clerical order. That sort of happened through evolution, natural selection and survival of the fittest, kind of thing.
J
JReducation
Guest
They are not properly The Byzantine Franciscans, but Byzantine Franciscans. In other words, they are Franciscans who are Byzantine. They are actually a small group within the Province of the Assumption of the BVM of the Observant Franciscans (OFMs). They are under the Latin Church for all things concerning religious life. Their liturgical life is Byzantine. They go through the same formation that the rest of the Franciscan family does and the answer to the General Minister of the Observant Franciscans (OFMs).
From the site, I get the impression that they are down to one or two Byzantine houses in that particular province. There are more Byzantine houses in some of the European provinces and in the Custody of the Holy Land.
I was wondering, because I knew that we’re not allowed to have a Byzantine branch of the order. However, we do have Byzantine Friars in the larger obediences such as the TOR, OFM, OFM Cap, OFM Conv, and the OSF.
Properly speaking, there is no Byzantine Franciscan Order, not yet. That would take an indult from the Holy Father. It would place them under the jurisdiction of one of the Eastern Patriarchs and the rule is very specific that they must dierctly under the Bishop of Rome.
Back to the topic of this thread, they do not use the traditional Byzantine titles. They follow the Franciscan Rule (which is for all Franciscans) and the Modus Procedendi, which is specific for each obedience.
Franciscans, Augustinians and Benedictines are not as organized as Dominicans and Carmelites.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Sam20045
Guest
**Priest-**Reverend (Rev) First Name Last Name also Father (Fr)
**Bishop-**His Lordship, The Right Reverend Lord Bishop of… (Spoken-My Lord Bishop, Your Lordship)
**Archbishop-**His Grace, The Most Reverend Lord Archbishop of… (Spoken-Your Grace, My Lord Archbshop)
**Cardinal Archbishop-**His Eminence, The Most Reverend, The Lord Cardinal Archbishop of… (Spoken-Your Eminence, My Lord Cardinal
**Cardinal-**His Eminence, Cardinal First Name Last Name
This is in the United Kingdom and many Commonwealth Nations.
In most countries both Bishops and Archbishops are addressed as Your Excellency and both have The Most Reverend (Most Rev.)
I prefer the above usage…it reflects history.
**Bishop-**His Lordship, The Right Reverend Lord Bishop of… (Spoken-My Lord Bishop, Your Lordship)
**Archbishop-**His Grace, The Most Reverend Lord Archbishop of… (Spoken-Your Grace, My Lord Archbshop)
**Cardinal Archbishop-**His Eminence, The Most Reverend, The Lord Cardinal Archbishop of… (Spoken-Your Eminence, My Lord Cardinal
**Cardinal-**His Eminence, Cardinal First Name Last Name
This is in the United Kingdom and many Commonwealth Nations.
In most countries both Bishops and Archbishops are addressed as Your Excellency and both have The Most Reverend (Most Rev.)
I prefer the above usage…it reflects history.
J
JReducation
Guest
In the USA
Deacon is Deacon
Priest is Father (unless he is a religious, in which case he may be Brother. It varies from one religious community to another).
All bishops and Archbishops are either: Bishop, Archbishop or Excellency
Cardinals are always Eminence or Cardinal. If the Cardinal is a Franciscan he goes by his frist name, Cardinal John, not Cardinal Smith. I don’t know what the other orders do.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
twf
Guest
English speaking Canada is a mix of the American and British usage…In the USA
Deacon is Deacon
Priest is Father (unless he is a religious, in which case he may be Brother. It varies from one religious community to another).
All bishops and Archbishops are either: Bishop, Archbishop or Excellency
Cardinals are always Eminence or Cardinal. If the Cardinal is a Franciscan he goes by his frist name, Cardinal John, not Cardinal Smith. I don’t know what the other orders do.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Bishops are “Your Excellency”
Archbishops are “Your Grace”
Cardinals are “Your Eminence”
It also depends on the local diocese to some degree. In the Diocese of Nelson, where I was originally received into the Church, the norm was to simply refer to “Bishop X” and to address the bishop as “Bishop”…but in the Archdiocese of Vancouver it is always “his grace” and “your grace”. Incidentally, the current bishop of Nelson is a Franciscan (Capuchin)
French Canada would be a different story. It gets a bit confusing because a “monsignor” in English Canada is a senior priest who has been made a prelate of the papal household, as in the US, but in French Canada a “monsignor” is a bishop…
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Diakonia
Guest
Eastern and Oriental Catholic and Orthodox bishops are most commonly addessed by the title appropriate to the Church of which they are members. Thus, one may properly address one as, for example, Kyr, Sayedna, Vladyka, Mar, Abba, or Abuna, followed by his first name.
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