Addressing conflict between religion and science

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I totally agree with you tonyrey but some will just say “non-materialists” have also argued themselves into a corner since they justify anything at all by claiming it as a “revelation” and are not required to provide evidence. And will then ask about “irrational” also.

Regarding the “truth of revelation”. They will just ask "How do we know that what is “revealed” is truth? You know what I mean? How do you address this?
“By their fruits you shall know them…” The teaching of Jesus is the basis of the values of modern civilisation and has transformed the attitude of the vast majority of people to **women **and children as well as to men of other races and nationalities…
 
(continued)

I’m saying that science can take care of itself in terms of accuracy regarding exteriors. And since the Enlightenment it has served to help separate out the “I” and “we” interior of things from the “it” and “its” that used before that to be very much muddled together. But it has given us a monological approach that has gutted the world of its soul. And religion has become formalized as well and imo lost what was its original impetus, how that happened being another story.

My theory is pretty simple, as is my practice. Like everyone else, I make assumptions. My assumptions are that whatever it is called, be it Soul, “created in the image and likeness of…” or commonality of ancestry on either “religious” or anthropological grounds, we are, generally speaking, schematically very very similar. In other words, we can point and say “That’s a human, like me.” And we can say that even by saying “That’s a human less than me because their (insert objectification) is different than mine.” So I’m thinking that we’re all from the same mold in a fundamental way, regardless of the particulars of our learned and acquired differences.

So based on that my tendency regarding things “spiritual” is to go with Universals and dismiss parochialisms. About the first thing to go in that regard would be socializations, including formal religions. Not the idea of God, mind you, but the dramatizations surrounding the idea of Deity. Next, since God is Unknown and Invisible, or that there is an Unknown and Invisible we seek to explain, I look at the component of myself that is most like that. That would be my mind. Specifically it would be that fact that regardless of what I am aware of, or we are aware of, I and we are aware. So we can abstract awareness as a principle of the human condition and abstract thoughts as objects, though they are “internal.” Thoughts and the senses are the objects of awareness. Even the sense of “me” and “my” are found to be the objects of awareness upon honest reflection.

Now when I was younger, and very very religious and praying a lot, specifically to know and be close to God, I had an experience that changed my life. I had an experience rather beyond words which demonstrated to me that “I” am before, or under, or the ground of, or whatever, relative to awareness. In other words, there is a state we can where it is experimentally known that “I am” before the perception of “me” relative to “it(s).” In other words, the perception of being a “discreet” person relative to a world is a construct supported by a state that is totally devoid of any contents and is equal to Identity and Meaning. You or anyone can name that state whatever you wish.

The Significance, for me, of that state is that it means that all of us are in Essence derived from or dependent upon this Absolute State I abstract as Undifferentiated Consciousness per se. So since it is our common Root, despite our particular differences in the state in which we experience time and space and each other as discernible differences, I can base my morality on that Identity, knowing that what appears as “another” is in Essence identical to my Self. Not to “me” as an object of my own awareness, but to that “I” whose supremacy my ego usurped and gave that name to itself. How could it not do that, given that our ordinary state is in the subject/object mode and not devoid of the mental construct that would allow us to perceive Identity as Such.

But here’s where it gets interesting. this State, which is Universally available and is the reason since time immemorial for the dictum to “Know Thyself” is also identifiable by anyone experiencing it as the Source of inspiration. It is that because That State is identical with Good. It is as well the Source and Reason for the Great Commandment and the forms of the Golden Rule and the Law of Reciprocity. But how do you talk about that which is Self in the Highest sense to the vast number of people who have not experienced it for themselves???

The classic way to do that is to use a familiar model, that of the family hierarchy, with it’s all powerful head as either the Disciplinarian, the Protector, or the Provider. And thus, since the Source is the Same and localities are multitudinous and varied both in environment and mental predilections, we get the differences in the parochialisms of religions. And since biologically we are mostly hypnotized into our ways by 7yo, and the mind is hard wired to be “right” almost no matter what, we tend to kill each other over inconsequential differences instead of looking to where the Root of religion IS.

So for that reason the “Holy Book” which one is most emotionally and experientially invested in becomes THE Holy Book to the exclusion of others until they achieve or are gifted by that Insight which allows the true value of any of them to come forth as Meaning. And that is why truly Holy men and women can extract Love from squiggles of ink on paper, or now, from dancing electrons.

Likewise, from this standpoint, the manifest is seen as having Meaning as Self expression. Since it is ans stems from a Unified Whole, the “ghost in the machine” is no longer the elephant in the room, but the agency of exploration of what it, from a far larger perspective, is doing.
RF,
Excellent post! Thank you.

If I translate correctly, you recognize within each human being something which is the source of consciousness.

I disagree with you that all humans have this capability, or that among those who have it, all have realized it. But that’s irrelevant, and can only be discussed in the context of other questions about this remarkable thing.

Nevermind what we name it. Only two aspects of this component of human consciousness are important:

  1. *]Its Origin
    *]Its Properties,
    *]and its Purpose, if any.

    Your further thoughts are welcome, please.
 
RF,
Excellent post! Thank you.

If I translate correctly, you recognize within each human being something which is the source of consciousness.
Thank you. Yes, in a sense, but more precisely that not only each human but all of manifestation is the living expression of (choose your synonym for God) in the medium of matter. So as an artist paints, sculpts, dances, speaks, the God dips the brush into His/Her/It’s Essence, and IS the canvas, the medium, and the brush simultaneously, as a white light is the same on both sides of a prism and at a level is the prism itself and the beholder of the phenomenon as well.
I disagree with you that all humans have this capability, or that among those who have it, all have realized it. But that’s irrelevant, and can only be discussed in the context of other questions about this remarkable thing.
Due to the nature of the manifestation, the required substance or essence is present, but enturbulated in the miasma of subject/object sense perception. Few even get to the threshold before the last one, that penultimate stumbling block being the perception of Deity as an ethereal object. It is much closer to home than that, as those who have been able to Speak with feet, the symbol of Understanding, firmly planted on both sides of that threshold and yet having a firm grip on the ordering of the subject/object quale.
Nevermind what we name it. Only two aspects of this component of human consciousness are important:

  1. *]Its Origin
    *]Its Properties,
    *]and its Purpose, if any.

  1. It originates as Absolutely Self Sufficient I, manifests by AMing as THAT I AM. so all of the ALLness or Omni- propositions not only apply, but enforce the Unitary Nature of Being/Manifestation. including the Identity statements of both the OT and NT. The only Purpose is to BE.
    Your further thoughts are welcome, please.
    As you ask! 😉
 
“By their fruits you shall know them…” The teaching of Jesus is the basis of the values of modern civilisation and has transformed the attitude of the vast majority of people to **women **and children as well as to men of other races and nationalities…
Indeed. And the problem with some people/scientists who do not base their hypotheses on the assumption that every action has a cause. If you eliminate the assumption of cause from science, where and how would you proceed in any investigation?
 
Thank you. Yes, in a sense, but more precisely that not only each human but all of manifestation is the living expression of (choose your synonym for God) in the medium of matter. So as an artist paints, sculpts, dances, speaks, the God dips the brush into His/Her/It’s Essence, and IS the canvas, the medium, and the brush simultaneously, as a white light is the same on both sides of a prism and at a level is the prism itself and the beholder of the phenomenon as well.

Due to the nature of the manifestation, the required substance or essence is present, but enturbulated in the miasma of subject/object sense perception. Few even get to the threshold before the last one, that penultimate stumbling block being the perception of Deity as an ethereal object. It is much closer to home than that, as those who have been able to Speak with feet, the symbol of Understanding, firmly planted on both sides of that threshold and yet having a firm grip on the ordering of the subject/object quale.

It originates as Absolutely Self Sufficient I, manifests by AMing as THAT I AM. so all of the ALLness or Omni- propositions not only apply, but enforce the Unitary Nature of Being/Manifestation. including the Identity statements of both the OT and NT. The only Purpose is to BE.

As you ask! 😉
RF,
Okay, I know when I’m licked. Uncle!

This conversation reminds me of college math difficulties. I could do applied math w/o much difficulty-- partial differential equations actually got to be fun puzzles— so I could do enough calculus to solve physics problems. But no aspect of abstract theoretical math connected with a single neuron. I had to drop every such course I tried.

Your approach to questions about the soul, and the nature and purpose of God, is at that same arcane level. There is no way that I can translate your words into concepts within my mind, although they clearly have meaning to you. It would be foolhardy of me to attempt to pursue this discussion. Too bad. As with abstract math, I’m certainly missing something.

Thanks for trying!
 
RF,
Okay, I know when I’m licked. Uncle!

This conversation reminds me of college math difficulties. I could do applied math w/o much difficulty-- partial differential equations actually got to be fun puzzles— so I could do enough calculus to solve physics problems. But no aspect of abstract theoretical math connected with a single neuron. I had to drop every such course I tried.

Your approach to questions about the soul, and the nature and purpose of God, is at that same arcane level. There is no way that I can translate your words into concepts within my mind, although they clearly have meaning to you. It would be foolhardy of me to attempt to pursue this discussion. Too bad. As with abstract math, I’m certainly missing something.

Thanks for trying!
Geeze; I am in awe of anyone capable of such math as you can do…

My intention is away from being arcane, though I know what you mean. I don’t think that that can be helped. None of what I’m saying is the thing in itself, as I’m sure you understand. But it is based on experience that correlates with the stream of non dualism which I understand to be most in line with the depth of interior experience, including, though they don’t acknowledge it as far as I can tell, the core of Catholic Mysticism.

But your situation relative to my statements is why I go to recommending to people of high intellect such as yourself the works of Franklin Merrell-Wolff in the order of their writing, and of Ken Wilber, especially his A Brief History of Everything. There is one more that is exceptionally useful in its panoply of mental tools useful in the study of religion, but I won’t mention it here as I don’t want to freak the audience.

You are a rare bird, and I enjoy our exchanges. Thank you for taking your valuable time to read and comment on my rants! 😉

RF
 
This doesn’t look look like it was moved. So how about continuing it on something that more reflects that thread title? How about, without getting into the atheism issue, sharing some ideas about why science and religion don’t get along sometimes? You know, as a general thing, as what areas they each properly encompass and what the bridges are/aren’t?
I repeat again and again,here,there and everywhere - there is no conflict between true science and religion nor can there be - the conflict is between pseudo/phoney science and religion and always will be - see “True Science agrees with the Bible” by Malcolm Bowden or better still go to his website - twinc
 
I repeat again and again,here,there and everywhere - there is no conflict between true science and religion nor can there be - the conflict is between pseudo/phoney science and religion and always will be - see “True Science agrees with the Bible” by Malcolm Bowden or better still go to his website - twinc
clockbackward.com/2009/06/28/does-science-contradict-christianity/

If you metaphorically reinterpret the bible to conform to current scientific knowledge then there will be few conflicts. However, what does this say to the faith?
 
It says that God had to reveal himself in a way the people at the time had to understand.
Huh?
The preceding argument may give the impression that the Christianity and science are not or cannot be in conflict (either because they deal with different subjects, or because interpretation adapts to harmonize with science). It is undeniable, however, that a strictly literal and inflexible reading of the Bible deeply contradicts science, and it is simply not possible to reconcile these opposing points of view.
 
Geeze; I am in awe of anyone capable of such math as you can do…

My intention is away from being arcane, though I know what you mean. I don’t think that that can be helped. None of what I’m saying is the thing in itself, as I’m sure you understand. But it is based on experience that correlates with the stream of non dualism which I understand to be most in line with the depth of interior experience, including, though they don’t acknowledge it as far as I can tell, the core of Catholic Mysticism.

But your situation relative to my statements is why I go to recommending to people of high intellect such as yourself the works of Franklin Merrell-Wolff in the order of their writing, and of Ken Wilber, especially his A Brief History of Everything. There is one more that is exceptionally useful in its panoply of mental tools useful in the study of religion, but I won’t mention it here as I don’t want to freak the audience.

You are a rare bird, and I enjoy our exchanges. Thank you for taking your valuable time to read and comment on my rants! 😉

RF
Unaccustomed to receiving complimentary replies, I have to wonder what you’re setting me up for.

You could PM the title of the mystery book.

Best as I can tell from here, we share common goals but are using ever-so-slightly different ways to get there. Imagine the Packers playing 43-man Squamish against the Yankees on a hockey rink, using a basketball.

I’m pretty much a cause-effect guy with two emotions, no talent, and not a mystical neuron in my little brain. You range more widely.

I first saw the conflict between science and religion in a dorm conversation between very young atheist and a devout Catholic wanna-be physicist. The argument was couched in those kind of practical, logical terms, and when I gave up wanting to be a physicist, I continued to engage it in those terms and argue it amongst those kinds of people, with whom I worked.

In time I learned that among those trying to deal with the S/R conflict, there were two general approaches. Writers like Gary Zukav and Fritjov Capra chose to resolve it by mystifying physics. Were you of that bent, chances are that you’d be comfortable with their approach, which seems similar to your purely philosophical approach. The other approach involves word reinterpretation and concept warping to make scientific principles appear to be non-conflictive with religious dogma.

Neither had any appeal to me, so I’m trying something different. Rather than introduce mysticism, I’m trying to remove it. Specifically, I remove it from the core idea behind most religions-- the God concept itself-- by defining God in terms of physics ideas and really simple 2+2=4 logic.

My approach is designed to deal with the issues raised by conventional scientists, cosmologists, Darwinists, and their ilk. It was never intended to appeal to mystics.

Your approach is clearly intended to address those of a more mystical bent. With luck, we will both succeed. The job needs to get done, and good Squamish (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43-Man_Squamish) requires teamwork.

I’m delighted that you and I are still communicating civilly, but have to wonder how we managed that or even got started.
 
I repeat again and again,here,there and everywhere - there is no conflict between true science and religion nor can there be - the conflict is between pseudo/phoney science and religion and always will be - see “True Science agrees with the Bible” by Malcolm Bowden or better still go to his website - twinc
Yikes!!! Temper temper! There is as much pseudo/phoney religion as there is such brand of science. So there is a nominal camp called science and a nominal camp called religion that disagrees on things, eg id vs evolution. Somehow those people might wish to get on the same page, and that’s what we’re talking about. And if the above is your viewpoint, hows about telling us how that works, or include a link to where you’ve said it before. Thanks.
 
Well, people could only understand so much at each point in history. God revealed himself to accommodate their understanding, to get the idea across, not the specific mechanics.
 
A false dilemma! How about evolution by Design? 🙂
Tony,

Evolution by Design is one of those ideas which, like the Social Security Ponzi scheme and waterbeds, seemed like a good idea at the time. I see several obvious egregious faults:

  1. *]It is much more difficult to implement than it sounds, because of the enormous number of unknown environmental variables which must be programmed for in advance. Plus, the additional unknowns which appear as new predators evolve and old prey go extinct.

    *]It fails to deal with abiogenesis.

    *]Taken together with the Biblical claims in Genesis, it is dreadfully confusing.

    *]It totally fails to address the horrid odds against gene construction by random chance, 1.4 x 10exp-542 for a single small 900 base-pair human gene.

    Abiogenesis is really a huge issue— the TRex in the outhouse. That’s why evolutionists generally ignore it completely. I’ve never understood why Creationists make such a fuss over Darwinism, which is so easy to obfuscate around, when abiogenesis is such an obvious candidate for Creation Theory.
 
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