Addressing "there is NOTHING I can do" statement

[tjhaefner]

As of several years ago, I relocated to an area not too far from one of my sisters. My sister left the Catholic Church about five years ago finding that the local Episcopal communion was more… let me put my slant on it…entertaining.

We’ve had some tough and some good conversations over the past few years, but there is an underlying theme that I need advice on.

We are in agreement about man’s fallen nature, etc. However, there seems to be a denial of the role of Grace to train our will to seek what is good or that, despite my sins and sores which are displeasing to God, there’s goodness in man as the preeminent created being. She will say things such as “there’s NOTHING I can do,” which is correct in one sense (salvation cannot be earned), but it denies any personal responsibility in either sin or worship or, as the beloved, I want to love Him through worship. If I call her on it, she seems to agree with me, but she talks in such a way that I feel she’s been brain washed…

The difficulty with this line of thought is, although some of her positions are true in a way, there’s just a touch of wackiness. It’s a strange mix of Jansenism with a touch of evangelicalism and Wesleyan predestination thrown in.

How do I address this??

 

[twosweetgirls]

You hit it right with the lack of personal responsibility. Next time the conversation comes up, you could tell her “how nice that you serve a God who requires NOTHING of you. Mine requires that I love Him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love my neighbor as myself.”

Something like that. . . ?

 

[reteeks21]

You hit it right with the lack of personal responsibility. Next time the conversation comes up, you could tell her “how nice that you serve a God who requires NOTHING of you. Mine requires that I love Him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love my neighbor as myself.”

Something like that. . . ?

OSAS does NOT say that God requires nothing from us in our Christian lives. That is a farce. Protestant churches DO preach obedience and love of Christ. We just say that our salvation isn’t predicated on us doing those things (i.e, earning it). If we don’t live, or strive to live a holy life then we are foolish in our thinking. When someone says “there is nothing I can do” there are saying that there is nothing I can do to get or keep God’s grace in their life. It is God who wills and works in us. We just surrender to that power.

 

[AshleyBelle]

OSAS does NOT say that God requires nothing from us in our Christian lives. That is a farce. Protestant churches DO preach obedience and love of Christ. We just say that our salvation isn’t predicated on us doing those things (i.e, earning it). If we don’t live, or strive to live a holy life then we are foolish in our thinking. When someone says “there is nothing I can do” there are saying that there is nothing I can do to get or keep God’s grace in their life. It is God who wills and works in us. We just surrender to that power.

I wanted to comment on the first bolded part of this to clarify: Catholics do NOT believe we earn our salvation. We do believe that if we just sit back and don’t participate with God’s grace, that we have failed to nourish His gift of salvation… Like the mustard seed parable. His gift is the seed planted in us, and if we just sit back and let it wither away, it can never bloom… But by cooperating with Him, we allow Him to water the seed in our life, He shines down like the sun and helps that seed grow! It is not us doing the watering and giving the light, but us allowing God to do these works in our life.
That is not “earning” that is using our gift of free will and saying YES to God

I like the second part of your statement, which I bolded. But would you not agree that “surrendering” to that power and “obeying” is an act of cooperating with His grace? Your last statement was actually very Catholic
Would you say that if we choose not to surrender to Him, that we cut off the life of grace from within us…and essentially toss aside His gift of salvation?

 

[Light_Seeker]

it denies any personal responsibility in either sin or worship or, as the beloved, I want to love Him through worship.

Spent some time this morning reflecting on today’s mass readings, which include the parable of the two sons (Mat 21:28-32). The best is to not only say you’re going to do something, but then to also do it. Of course Jesus is blasting the chief priests (second son), as *saying *they worship, but did not do the work, with the first son (gentiles), who initially refused, then later did the Lord’s work, believing, repenting, going to the kingdom of God.

And isn’t your sister like the second son, who says “I go, sir”, but does nothing, ie, “There’s nothing I can do?”?

 

[reteeks21]

I wanted to comment on the first bolded part of this to clarify: Catholics do NOT believe we earn our salvation. We do believe that if we just sit back and don’t participate with God’s grace, that we have failed to nourish His gift of salvation… Like the mustard seed parable. His gift is the seed planted in us, and if we just sit back and let it wither away, it can never bloom… But by cooperating with Him, we allow Him to water the seed in our life, He shines down like the sun and helps that seed grow! It is not us doing the watering and giving the light, but us allowing God to do these works in our life.
That is not “earning” that is using our gift of free will and saying YES to God

I like the second part of your statement, which I bolded. But would you not agree that “surrendering” to that power and “obeying” is an act of cooperating with His grace? Your last statement was actually very Catholic
Would you say that if we choose not to surrender to Him, that we cut off the life of grace from within us…and essentially toss aside His gift of salvation?

If I implied that I think Catholics earn their salvation please forgive me. I do NOT believe Catholics believe that way. In fact, I have met more PROTESTANTS who think that way than Catholics. Of course we cooperate with God in the work in our lives! We are eye-to-eye on that one. Someone can deny it, yes; I am not disputing that. However, I do not believe that if someone falls into sin that they are in danger of hell. The Bible is littered with dumb people who kept falling off the path but were brought back in by God’s grace. Those that choose to leave…well, that’s between them and God. I just pray, believe, and hold out hope that the knowledge of their father will bring them back, just like the prodigal son.

I’m not sure, though, if we “cooperate” to keep us in a state of grace. I believe God’s grace is bigger than that. I have been told by a few on here that a lot of what I say is very Catholic (it’s a ploy! J/K), but I am not so sure it is. Maybe it is and I am just in denial, but I don’t think so. The difference between the catholic view of perseverance and mine is actually what KEPT me from joining the rcc back in 2005.

 

[tjhaefner]

Thanks, Lightseeker. Good comments. It just seems like a strange paralysis. If there’s “NOTHING I can do,” why bother doing anything? Why not just sit there and just wait for God’s grace? Doesnt he want the intimate conversation called prayer? Doesnt he want us totally but respects our freedom as to not force it (else it wouldnt be authentic freedom)?

To reteeks21: for those “dumb people who kept falling off the path but were brought back in by God’s grace,” which did so by no doing of their own?

 

[reteeks21]

Thanks, Lightseeker. Good comments. It just seems like a strange paralysis. If there’s “NOTHING I can do,” why bother doing anything? Why not just sit there and just wait for God’s grace? Doesnt he want the intimate conversation called prayer? Doesnt he want us totally but respects our freedom as to not force it (else it wouldnt be authentic freedom)?

To reteeks21: for those “dumb people who kept falling off the path but were brought back in by God’s grace,” which did so by no doing of their own?

You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting my point. It has NOTHING to with not bothering to do anything. It is quite the opposite. Not doing anything means doing nothing to earn or keep salvation. We work BECAUSE we are saved. Anyone that says that they don’t have to, or even want to serve is not in the truth. That is exactly what I said in my earlier post. Those that may fall away, I believe, are rescued by the knowledge of God’s grace to them, not by them “doing” anything. Our actions are a response to God’s grace that demonstrates the work of that grace in our lives. I wish people would quit putting forth the notion that works and prayer are not important to us, especially after several of us have spent ample time telling you different. To continue to do so is a dishonest assessment of what we believe.

 

[tjhaefner]

You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting my point. It has NOTHING to with not bothering to do anything. It is quite the opposite. Not doing anything means doing nothing to earn or keep salvation. We work BECAUSE we are saved. Anyone that says that they don’t have to, or even want to serve is not in the truth. That is exactly what I said in my earlier post. Those that may fall away, I believe, are rescued by the knowledge of God’s grace to them, not by them “doing” anything. Our actions are a response to God’s grace that demonstrates the work of that grace in our lives. I wish people would quit putting forth the notion that works and prayer are not important to us, especially after several of us have spent ample time telling you different. To continue to do so is a dishonest assessment of what we believe.

I did not mean to offend. I don’t understand however that a person has to have the knowledge of God’s grace. So it’s knowledge that saves? Gnosis?? When i returned to the Church, i didnt have an iota of knowledge of grace.

I think where Catholics become frustrated is what seems is the elasticity of Protestantism. When cornered, many say “well, this is what ‘I believe’” or “well, they are just not ‘in the truth.’” If Christ founded a Church, and we are duty-bound to discern that true Church, how does the Protestant determine definatively who is “in the truth” and who is not? I think it was to Timothy that Paul charged him and his Church to guard and protect the teachings of the faith–who performs this job of the church for Protestants? If the Anglicans “vote” as to whether they are going to split this week and espouse same-sex unions (or not), I mean–what’s the authority?

 

[reteeks21]

I did not mean to offend. I don’t understand however that a person has to have the knowledge of God’s grace. So it’s knowledge that saves? Gnosis?? When i returned to the Church, i didnt have an iota of knowledge of grace.

I think where Catholics become frustrated is what seems is the elasticity of Protestantism. When cornered, many say “well, this is what ‘I believe’” or “well, they are just not ‘in the truth.’” If Christ founded a Church, and we are duty-bound to discern that true Church, how does the Protestant determine definatively who is “in the truth” and who is not? I think it was to Timothy that Paul charged him and his Church to guard and protect the teachings of the faith–who performs this job of the church for Protestants? If the Anglicans “vote” as to whether they are going to split this week and espouse same-sex unions (or not), I mean–what’s the authority?

I am VERY sorry for coming across as rude! I allowed my frustrations to get the best of me on that one. I understand EXACTLY where you are coming from. I have met catholics who interpret knowing or believing as simply a “head thing”, but to me that is not the case. It is not saying it with the lips but denying it with actions simply BECAUSE you said it with your lips. You cannot do that as a Christian. When I say knowledge of God’s grace I am speaking of coming to know and believe that Christ’s sacrifice was done for me, personally, and my response in faith, word, and deed results from the realization. Does that make better sense?

As far as discerning the truth…this is where you may scratch your head and wonder why I am not a catholic. I have no issue with a “pope” per say. We NEED spiritual leaders, but I do not believe that a pope speaks infallibly. I believe that tradition is extremely important, but it should not out-weigh what scripture teachers. True, Paul does admonish Tim to hold to the teachings, but what teachings? If they were so important why were they not included in the canon when the catholic fellas put it together? To me, if it’s important, include it in the canon; don’t leave it to man to deal with. That is why we hold to scripture being a rung up on tradition, or at least that’s the case for me. Does that make sense?

Also, in regards to the Anglican question, their decision to split over an issue like same-sex unions is stupid because the authority for me on that issue is scripture. It’s not that difficult. Some here will accuse protestants of mis-intepreting scripture to the point where they come up with the idea that gay marriage is acceptable. And they will take that even farther and say that personal protestant interpretation is where the key flaw is. No! Interpreting it to fit your own agenda is the problem because there are issues that are so cut and dry it’s stupid to go against them.

I am not trying to say catholics are wrong. Believe me, I am the last person who will bash catholics even if we do disagree, and I will never say you are bunch of misled papists who belong to the whore of babylon. That would be just plain stupid. I am simply saying that some catholics, while they may have legit points, mis-interpret our stance on the “I have nothing to do with it” issue.

 

[MarcoPolo]

We’ve had some tough and some good conversations over the past few years, but there is an underlying theme that I need advice on.

I’m personally a big believer that verbal conversation is not always the answer. Many people don’t have the humility to submit to the sound reasoning of another. If you have had numerous conversations, I think your best route is to answer questions briefly when asked. Otherwise, your preaching by the way you live your own life may be the most tremendous witness to the truth. St. Francis taught as much when he said, “preach the gospel, sometimes use words.”

Perhaps that is the right move for you or not. You know your situation best!

 

[tjhaefner]

reteeks21 : Thanks for the candor and clarification!!

 

[reteeks21]

reteeks21 : Thanks for the candor and clarification!!

I get some things right on occassion. Well, that depends on if my wife tells me if I do or not!