Adiaphora

[Robert_Burns]

I don’t accept evolution, but I think it is a good theory. To God a thousand years is one day and vice-versa - meaning that “one day” to God (who inspired the writing of Scripture)does not necessarily mean “one day” in human time.:newidea: The Bible explains itself pretty well. Where does Jesus Christ say that you must believe in a literal six days of creation?

A literal six days? So I suppose you believe Christ’s words literally when He stated that “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have no life in you?” And do you also believe literally when Jesus stated that you must be born of water and spirit in order to be saved? I’ve always found it strange and ironic that fundamentalists use the literal interpretation of the Creation Story as a touchstone of orthodoxy, while simultaneously bending over backwards to (mis)interpret Jesus’ own words regarding salvation in the least literal fashion.

I’m sure he meant the Creation Story, not Genesis as a whole.

Blessings,
Marduk

Robert: I happen to believe in a literal six day creation. I am Catholic. John Chapter 6 is literal as well. Not only did Jesus Perform the multiplication of loaves and fish but prefigured the Holy Eucharist. With Scripture - there is a depth of infinite intelligence that cannot be discounted when embarking on Scripture study , the Catholic Church holding the lawful authority from GOD for proper exegesis. As an example - how many Protestants attempt to forward the false notiion that The Blessed Virgin Mary isnt ever virgin by mistranslation of Matthew 1:25 ? The Exegesis of the Church is overwhelming but many of the protestants remain undeterred in their misconceptions. So I find that agreeing to disagree seems to be the best course of action - when non Catholics are so entrenched. The Truth does indeed stand on its own merit , it doesnt need me to do anything other than state it at which point either the listener accepts it on its own merit or rejects it for what ever reason they so choose. GOD supplies both it and grace to disseminate it if one is so disposed to prepare themselves spiritually to recieve it. There is no shortcul for prayers and fastings and penances and doing the will of GOD. And in their journey and in doing the will of GOD - the Astute Christian can overcome his or her obstinency. Everyone is , at this point in time , not in the same place. So sometimes its just better to say the truth and leave it at that , the seed being planted.

Pax

Pax

 

[adstrinity]

Yes, actually, you do. In order to believe in evolution, you must deny the Bible’s teaching about death being introduced as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin.

OH! But, that’s where you err.

You see, in Hebrew, what is translated as “they will surely die” is “They will die the death” (all quotes approximate), which means, the death threatened for our first Parents will be such an all encompasing death that it will separate them from God Himself.

This has nothing to do with evolution, which holds that death is necessary to get the survival of the fittest, because before homo sapiens, no other being was gifted with an immortal soul. When God breathed (note the intimacy with this creation of His) into the nostrils of Adam, he created, right then and there, man in his own image. Whatever died before that did not have immortal souls, they had souls, but, they did not continue after death and therefore, would not be separated from God as such.

Dying is one thing, to die again is another.

 

[Robert_Burns]

But you are the one who falsely accused me of being the one who is “uncivil” and “Unchristian”, even though I never said anything either uncivil or Unchristian to you.

Well lets explore the original Post . The subject matter was about what the Catholic Church allows on undefined (By the Magisterium) of points of Theology and what the Catholic is allowed to believe in such instances. I was addressing that content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Burns
Not necessarily in disagreement

So, not in disagreement, just believing different things.

Quote:
we are free to hold to either position and not have it be an impediment to Faith.

To which you responded and I Quote :

" That’s interesting that you claim that liberty for yourselves, but refuse to extend it to us."

Robert. Was that statement civil? Was it on topic? Obviously not. In addition I was not addressing what non catholics do or dont do. I was addressing what OUR Church allows us to do. And BTW - out of respect for the OP who was asking a very good question , this is the last post I will offer on this thread and if you persist in argumentation on this matter , we will let the moderator decide who is and isnt out of line in taking the thread in this direction. Its not only counter productive , but in my opinion - disrespectful to the OP who no doubt didnt want to see his thread become a platform for argumentation. And since it takes two to argue , you are on your own.

Pax

 

[Auburn88]

OH! But, that’s where you err.

Yeah, the Apostle Paul and I are such idiots, aren’t we?

You see, in Hebrew, what is translated as “they will surely die” is “They will die the death” (all quotes approximate), which means, the death threatened for our first Parents will be such an all encompasing death that it will separate them from God Himself.

OK. Let’s say that this silly claim is true and that Paul really had no idea what he was talking about and that the Holy Spirit is really so incompetent that He could not inspire Paul to speak correctly on this issue.

What happened to those unevolved “people” who lived before Adam and Eve? Where are they?

 

[Auburn88]

Well lets explore the original Post . The subject matter was about what the Catholic Church allows on undefined (By the Magisterium) of points of Theology and what the Catholic is allowed to believe in such instances. I was addressing that content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Burns
Not necessarily in disagreement

So, not in disagreement, just believing different things.

Quote:
[we are free to hold to either position and not have it be an impediment to Faith.

To which you responded and I Quote :

" That’s interesting that you claim that liberty for yourselves, but refuse to extend it to us."

Robert. Was that statement civil? Was it on topic? Obviously not. In addition I was not addressing what non catholics do or dont do. I was addressing what OUR Church allows us to do. And BTW - out of respect for the OP who was asking a very good question , this is the last post I will offer on this thread and if you persist in argumentation on this matter , we will let the moderator decide who is and isnt out of line in taking the thread in this direction. Its not only counter productive , but in my opinion - disrespectful to the OP who no doubt didnt want to see his thread become a platform for argumentation. And since it takes two to argue , you are on your own.

Pax

In other words, I didn’t say anything uncivil or Unchristlike to you.
[/quote]

 

[jots]

My post wasnt directed towards you - but rather towwards Auburn88. Your approach was in a Christian manner unlike hers. Let me reiterate - I have no problem discussing differences - but I will not be bullied either. If I didnt hold to the beliefs stated in the Nicene Creed , I wouldnt be able to call myself Catholic. That isnt a reflection on what you believe or do not believe , its a statement of that which I believe.

Pax

hey Robert, I know you weren’t directing it toward me. Actually, my sadness was a direct responce to Auburn88’s attacks.

ON CREATION:

Let’s not discount God’s power here

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

6 days could easily be 6000 years…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Actually, it isn’t compatible at all. If you accept evolution, then not only do you have to throw out the first eleven chapters of Genesis, but you’re also calling Jesus Christ a liar.

Its only not compatible if you look at it with a closed mind

No you don’t, or else you wouldn’t believe in evolution and would acknowledge that God created the world in six literal days.

Wow, now you’re telling me what I believe in?
The Church certainly knows more than you and me. I’d go with what the Church says.

Actually, that’s not the whole point of Genesis at all. The point of Genesis is mankind’s fall into sin and God’s plan to save mankind through establishing a relationship with Israel and the Messiah that would come out of that line, as well as establishing the principle of substitutionary atonement.

I should have made it clear, thats the whole point of Genesis 1-2.

 

[ConstantineTG]

hey Robert, I know you weren’t directing it toward me. Actually, my sadness was a direct responce to Auburn88’s attacks.

ON CREATION:

Let’s not discount God’s power here

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

6 days could easily be 6000 years…

Also note that “a thousand” in Jewish writings is also a figure of speech for a large uncountable number. It doesn’t literally mean 1,000 as it does to us today.

 

[Auburn88]

hey Robert, I know you weren’t directing it toward me. Actually, my sadness was a direct responce to Auburn88’s attacks.

What “attacks”?

 

[Auburn88]

Its only not compatible if you look at it with a closed mind

Well, if believing the Bible means being closed minded, then I guess I’m closed minded.

Wow, now you’re telling me what I believe in?

Yes, I am repeating back to you what you have stated that you believe.

The Church certainly knows more than you and me. I’d go with what the Church says.

Not if your church is wrong, and in this case, your church is wrong.

 

[archangel04]

Thank you for doubting my salvation. I don’t, as I have the assurance of the Word of God that my salvation is both true and secure.

That is a pretty arrogant statement right there, salvation is decided by God himself alone and no one else. Perhaps you are on the road to salvation, I don’t know, but you are not guranteed that salvation until you have been judged by the Lord, and if you are deemed worthy. Not even the greatest saints have ever assumed their salvation.

faith without works is dead-Jamed 2:20, unless this is only meant to be symbolic?

 

[Auburn88]

That is a pretty arrogant statement right there, salvation is decided by God himself alone and no one else.

That’s right. And it is God who has stated that my salvation is assured.

Perhaps you are on the road to salvation, I don’t know, but you are not guranteed that salvation until you have been judged by the Lord, and if you are deemed worthy. Not even the greatest saints have ever assumed their salvation.

Actually, I have been judged by the Lord and I was not worthy at all. Neither are you. The difference is that you’re depending on your works to make you worthy, while I am depending on the shed blood of Christ to make Christ worthy in my place.

 

[adstrinity]

Yeah, the Apostle Paul and I are such idiots, aren’t we?

Do not compare yourself to St. Paul. He was a martyr, you only think of yourself as one.

OK. Let’s say that this silly claim is true

Research.

and that Paul really had no idea what he was talking about

What? No.

and that the Holy Spirit is really so incompetent

NO!

that He could not inspire Paul to speak correctly on this issue.

??? checks topic of this thread

What happened to those unevolved “people” who lived before Adam and Eve? Where are they?

They weren’t people. They were less than people. They no longer exist. Like a plant or an elephant, after it dies, it ceases to exist.

 

[Auburn88]

Do not compare yourself to St. Paul. He was a martyr, you only think of yourself as one.

Quoting somebody is not the same as comparing yourself to them, but thank you for the rude and childish personal attack.

They weren’t people. They were less than people. They no longer exist. Like a plant or an elephant, after it dies, it ceases to exist.

But how did they die when there was no death?

 

[adstrinity]

Quoting somebody is not the same as comparing yourself to them, but thank you for the rude and childish personal attack.

You didn’t quote, you compared.

But how did they die when there was no death?

There was death. I explained that. I also explained the differences in death and language.

 

[Auburn88]

You didn’t quote, you compared.

Actually, I cited.

There was death. I explained that. I also explained the differences in death and language.

Paul says that there was no death. Why should I believe you over Him?

 

[jots]

Do not compare yourself to St. Paul. He was a martyr, you only think of yourself as one.

hey adstrinity…
may i have your permission to use this quote? its brilliant!
(might even make a good “signature”)

 

[adstrinity]

hey adstrinity…
may i have your permission to use this quote? its brilliant!
(might even make a good “signature”)

Thank you for the compliment.

I am honored that you find the sentiments quotible. Yes, you may use it, if appropriate, but, pray it doesn’t go to my head.

 

[adstrinity]

Actually, I cited.

Paul says that there was no death. Why should I believe you over Him?

Show me where you cited.

Are you sure it’s not you who is making a distinction where there is none?

 

[Auburn88]

Show me where you cited.

Romans 5

Are you sure it’s not you who is making a distinction where there is none?

Yes.