Adultery: Drawing the line

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afthomercy

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The general rule that we see on this website is that a sinful tendency is not a sin unless acted upon in that direction. eg. homosexual tendency is not a sin, but homosexual intercourse is a sin. Murderous thoughts are not a sin, but murder is. By the same logic, looking at another married woman lustfully should not be a sin, if it is not acted upon. How does this reconcile with the Lord’s dictum that it is a sin?
Mathew 5:27-28 “Jesus said to his disciples: You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
 
Just because you didn’t carry the act out doesn’t mean you didn’t play it out in your mind. If I sexually fantasize about what I would like to do to this woman then yes, it is a serious sin.
 
But I can also make a detailed plan to murder somebody. Does that make it a sin? I don’t think so!
 
afthomercy said:
But I can also make a detailed plan to murder somebody. Does that make it a sin? I don’t think so!
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So what is your conclusion? That thoughts don’t count? A person cannot sin by entertaining a thought whether it is adulterous, murderous, etc? Then why, in the Confiteor do we say,

“I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned
through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do…”

I believe that the Church teaches that if a sinful thought is encouraged, entertained, or willfully dwelt upon, it is sinful. A passing thought is not.
 
afthomercy said:
The general rule that we see on this website is that a sinful tendency is not a sin unless acted upon in that direction. eg. homosexual tendency is not a sin, but homosexual intercourse is a sin. Murderous thoughts are not a sin, but murder is. By the same logic, looking at another married woman lustfully should not be a sin, if it is not acted upon. How does this reconcile with the Lord’s dictum that it is a sin?
Mathew 5:27-28 “Jesus said to his disciples: You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
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It is a sin for homosexuals to think lustfully about another person, just as it is for a heterosexual to think lustfully about the opposite sex.

What Jesus said also has to do with the Ninth Commandment: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
 
It might help you see it better if you remember that the nature of all sin is that it offends God, not just the woman you lusted after or the person you were drawing up plans to kill.

We tend to examine these acts only in the horizontal perspective, that is, did it offend 'me" or “him” or “her.” Passing this test, we sometimes get the false sense of security that we didn’t cross any lines as far as sin goes. If you think about the vertical component of it, that is, does it or doesn’t it offend God, then it’s not so easy to justify all these thoughts.

Killing others offends God. I don’t think He would be impressed in the least by someone who sat around all day contemplating the myriad ways they could commit such an act, then be mollified by the fact they stopped short of carrying it out. Certainly it is good that they didn’t go through with it, but the thoughts are disordered and move you away from God, not closer to Him.

So you can’t simply use the excuse that Jesus only spoke about lusting not murdering, so it’s okay to be a closet Charles Manson if that’s how you want to pass your time.
 
The reason for touching the “firewall” counting as much a sin as breaching the firewall is to keep you away from the firewall.

There is a television program that begins with a voiceover: “Only two kinds of people are interested in the details of murder: psychopaths and mystery writers.” So, if you are attracted to the notion of killing people, then don’t acquire weapons and don’t collect a library on how to kill people. Unless of course you write a thousand words a day and get your book or magazine article published.

If handling money causes you to break out in a sweat and you start fantasizing about very expensive cars and trips to Rio, then don’t take a job at a bank.

If you really admire politically powerful people and you REALLY want to be THE BOSS, then maybe politics is not the best career-path for you.

Many many people have testified that they never in a million years intended to commit adultery, but that it all started with a smile, then “escalated” to coffee and then one thing led to another.

So, if someone you are not married to seems attractive, simply AVOID that person. If you know that person will be at a certain place at a certain time, then don’t go there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Arguing isn’t worth the effort.

What you can do, however, to learn more is to use the search button and search for adultery. Lord knows there are plenty of stories here on CAF. There was even a priest who wrote in; solid guy; a smile … that’s how it started. He lost everything.
 
afthomercy said:
The general rule that we see on this website is that a sinful tendency is not a sin unless acted upon in that direction. eg. homosexual tendency is not a sin, but homosexual intercourse is a sin. Murderous thoughts are not a sin, but murder is. By the same logic, looking at another married woman lustfully should not be a sin, if it is not acted upon. How does this reconcile with the Lord’s dictum that it is a sin?
Mathew 5:27-28 “Jesus said to his disciples: You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
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A “general rule” - derived frm this website does not consitute magisterial teaching.
afthomercy said:
But I can also make a detailed plan to murder somebody. Does that make it a sin? I don’t think so!
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You would be wrong - It is sinful.

The problem that we often try to address here is the difference between “random thoughts” that pop into your head, and thoughts dwelt on. We cannot prevent random thoughts/emotions. All we can do is properly deal with them when we become aware of them.

Peace
James
 
It’s possible to come up with a plan that could effectively be used to murder someone without committing a sin (take literature, for instance). It’s not necessarily the healthiest thing to do or the best way to spend your time, but it’s not necessarily a sin. If you think up that plan with a particular person in mind in order to satisfy your anger, hatred, etc., against him, that seems to be a mortal sin. If you do the same with the intention to fulfill the act, it is a mortal sin.

To think lustfully about someone is already to consent to the act (lustful thoughts). If someone has a passing thought about a woman without consenting to impure thoughts, it is not a sin. If someone who has the mental disorder of homosexuality and has a passing temptation about someone of the same sex, it is not a sin. If either person entertains the thought and actually forms either immodest images in his head or whathaveyou, he commits a sin. The two are entirely different things. It’s not possible to draw up the plan for an immodest women, etc., without necessarily intending the sin.
 
IntegraCatholic said:
It’s possible to come up with a plan that could effectively be used to murder someone without committing a sin (take literature, for instance). It’s not necessarily the healthiest thing to do or the best way to spend your time, but it’s not necessarily a sin. If you think up that plan with a particular person in mind in order to satisfy your anger, hatred, etc., against him, that seems to be a mortal sin. If you do the same with the intention to fulfill the act, it is a mortal sin.

To think lustfully about someone is already to consent to the act (lustful thoughts). If someone has a passing thought about a woman without consenting to impure thoughts, it is not a sin. If someone who has the mental disorder of homosexuality and has a passing temptation about someone of the same sex, it is not a sin. If either person entertains the thought and actually forms either immodest images in his head or whathaveyou, he commits a sin. The two are entirely different things. It’s not possible to draw up the plan for an immodest women, etc., without necessarily intending the sin.
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The thought process outlined in your post applies to a lot of things.

If you have no money, you can have random thoughts about cars. You can read about cars and collect car pictures and make up a loose leaf binder. But you are setting yourself up for financial disaster in pursuing this hobby too far. You can go to car shows, but then you buy a car part. I know people who suddenly show up at home with a car that they cannot afford. It may be a “project car” [one needing a lot of restoration work] or it may be a “high maintenance” car [one of my friends bought an older Jaguar – disaster]. Or you visit a car dealership and let yourself get talked into buying a car you cannot afford.

It’s a different thing if you take a job in the automobile industry, as a mechanic or as a salesperson. Of course, even “gearheads” get in over their heads and let the cars dominate their lives. Marriages even break up over these things.

But this is just an illustration of how easy it is for something to get out of control. And owning a car is not a mortal sin. Owning a car is not forbidden.

Committing adultery IS a mortal sin. Adultery IS forbidden.

So it is doubly important to avoid the near occasion of sin.

Stay away from the firewall.

The point is that if something other than the spouse is the focus of your marriage, then you are courting mortal danger.
 
Making a detailed plan to murder someone is a sin, just not the specific sin of murder. It’s hatred of one’s neighbor at the very least.
 
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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Each pair of items expresses the difference between something alive and something dead:

‘Soul’ means waxing cold… dead
Spirit gives life…

‘Joint’ also mean chariots symbolizing earthly strength
Marrow gives life to the blood.

Passing thought… dead. It is a transitory thing that dies with his flesh and not representative of the living person.
Intents of the heart… the essence of the life of the person.

Christ is the Word of God. With one piercing glance he can tell if you are alive or dead. He doesn’t need to wait and see what develops, or review a history. When he peeks inside, either he sees himself there or not.

The Pharisee will always try to use the law to justify his action while ignoring his heart.

So one person thinking of a woman has a passing thought which is dismissed since it does not reflect his life in Christ, and another has an intention of the heart reflecting the nature of his dead person.

Adultery of the heart is not the problem but a symptom of no life in Christ.
 
Ponyguy said:
Does this imply that a married man is permitted to covet an unmarried woman? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/ponyguy/thinking.gif
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When a man and a woman are bound together by the Sacrament of Marriage, if one of the spouses lusts after another person, that is adultery. When an unmarried person lusts after another unmarried person, that is adultery in the heart and is a sin.

This passage from The Catechism of the Catholic Church sheds more light on this:
2517
The heart is the seat of moral personality: "Out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication. . . ."305 The struggle against carnal covetousness entails purifying the heart and practicing temperance:
Remain simple and innocent, and you will be like little children who do not know the evil that destroys man’s life.306

God directs us through our conscience. We have the capability of either following it or rejecting it. In this, we know the limits. If you still don’t, then prayer is a viable option, as that also links us to God.
 
DOShea said:
It might help you see it better if you remember that the nature of all sin is that it offends God, not just the woman you lusted after or the person you were drawing up plans to kill.
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Tietjen said:
So what is your conclusion? That thoughts don’t count? A person cannot sin by entertaining a thought whether it is adulterous, murderous, etc? Then why, in the Confiteor do we say…I believe that the Church teaches that if a sinful thought is encouraged, entertained, or willfully dwelt upon, it is sinful. A passing thought is not.
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I think I’ll go with the above logic of why harbouring sinful thoughts is a sin. Since God reads thoughts, a wilful (as distinct from random) sinful thought has the capacity to offend Him. Can we therefore conclude that the broader message of Mathew 5:27-28 is that anyone who harbours sinful designs is practically guilty of the sin as though actually committed? It follows that if I have seriously drawn up plans to murder/seduce/defraud someone, but am prevented only by circumstances from putting it into action, and before I can do anything, I die unrepentant, then on judgement day, I will be judged as a murderer/adulterer/robber! (Shudder!!!)

I thank everybody for an insightful discussion.
Warm regards.:flowers:
 
It may be good to review the requirements of mortal sin. 1. a serious matter, 2. knowledge, 3. free will. Also the ninth and tenth commandments. Lusting usually is a mortal sin as it involves the three requirements for a mortal sin. Having random thoughts or temptations are usually not mortal sins but may be venial or just temptations without any sin at all.
 
afthomercy said:
The general rule that we see on this website is that a sinful tendency is not a sin unless acted upon in that direction. eg. homosexual tendency is not a sin, but homosexual intercourse is a sin. Murderous thoughts are not a sin, but murder is. By the same logic, looking at another married woman lustfully should not be a sin, if it is not acted upon. How does this reconcile with the Lord’s dictum that it is a sin?
Mathew 5:27-28 “Jesus said to his disciples: You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Click to expand...
Jesus is basically opposed to undressing people with your eyes. This is perfectly reasonable. This is also sort of part of his reform in that he is not emphasizing the importance of obeying God’s commands ABOVE the bear minimum, as previously thinking inappropriately about sex was, theoretically, acceptable.
 
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