Adultery?

[CatholicRaven]

She and her ‘friend’ are more than happy to live a chaste life once they ‘eventually’ get to live together. This is without marrying! She has said she doesnt want to marry again!

So she loves him so much romantically… that she wants to live with him but doesn’t ever want to marry him or have sex with him. Okay…

I believe she can do this. I know her and i know how strong she can be. Ok, she has not been able to stay in her marriage but she has tried, for many many years! It just couldnt go on! Same as her friend.
…
Now, does she then quit her new friend/love? She cant! She loves him so much and he her. But, she loves God so much that she has said, she will not marry again and will not enter into a sexual relationship!! It can be done with Gods help!!

Wait. You said yourself how “strong” she can be, and how with God’s help, she can live chastely with this guy. But then you go on to deny that she could quit the relationship with this man (or even just delay it for a while). She also is apparently not strong enough to live alone because then she wouldn’t have any (and I assume you mean romantic) love in her life… because apparently, their love is dependent upon her being willing to live with him?

I think you’re right that this is what your sister and her lover both WANT, and that is what it all really comes down to.

 

[EasterJoy]

So she loves him so much romantically… that she wants to live with him but doesn’t ever want to marry him or have sex with him. Okay…

Wait. You said yourself how “strong” she can be, and how with God’s help, she can live chastely with this guy. But then you go on to deny that she could quit the relationship with this man (or even just delay it for a while). She also is apparently not strong enough to live alone because then she wouldn’t have any (and I assume you mean romantic) love in her life… because apparently, their love is dependent upon her being willing to live with him?

I think you’re right that this is what your sister and her lover both WANT, and that is what it all really comes down to.

The question is whether they are strong enough to make the choice in favor of the greatest act of human love, which is to sacrifice in order to get the person you love to Heaven.

 

[CatholicRaven]

The question is whether they are strong enough to make the choice in favor of the greatest act of human love, which is to sacrifice in order to get the person you love to Heaven.

Exactly. Well said!

 

[ajecphotos]

Folks, your words are full of advice and knowledge. I thank you for putting up with my firm stance.

I agree with what you say.

I do find it hard that God would not permit my sister to find ‘true’ love since her current marriage has failed forever. Looks like she is doomed to be alone and without love then as she cannot live anymore with her current partner. She has found ‘true love’ now but if she wants to remain faithful to God she has to let him go!

I will pass on your comments.

 

[EasterJoy]

Folks, your words are full of advice and knowledge. I thank you for putting up with my firm stance.

I agree with what you say.

I do find it hard that God would not permit my sister to find ‘true’ love since her current marriage has failed forever. Looks like she is doomed to be alone and without love then as she cannot live anymore with her current partner. She has found ‘true love’ now but if she wants to remain faithful to God she has to let him go!

I will pass on your comments.

You do not know what God will and will not permit or what God has in mind for the whole of her life, and neither does your sister. You know she’s in a marriage which she must for the present assume is valid. Let us say that she is right in her discernment of whether the defects in it can be mended, and correctly believes it is impossible to live in peace with her spouse, so that a civil divorce is morally permissible. Well, in that case it is possible that she might have an investigation done and may find that her marriage was not valid.

One day at a time. One day at a time. She is not doomed to be alone and without love. If she chooses anything or anyone in preference to the law of God, however, she is going to get lost. Help her to trust that God will not leave her to a fate she cannot endure. If she is faithful, she will be OK. If she leaves off being faithful in order to second-guess God, she is making her redemption a far more difficult project.

 

[ajecphotos]

You do not know what God will and will not permit or what God has in mind for the whole of her life, and neither does your sister. You know she’s in a marriage which she must for the present assume is valid. Let us say that she is right in her discernment of whether the defects in it can be mended, and correctly believes it is impossible to live in peace with her spouse, so that a civil divorce is morally permissible. Well, in that case it is possible that she might have an investigation done and may find that her marriage was not valid.

One day at a time. One day at a time. She is not doomed to be alone and without love. If she chooses anything or anyone in preference to the law of God, however, she is going to get lost. Help her to trust that God will not leave her to a fate she cannot endure. If she is faithful, she will be OK. If she leaves off being faithful in order to second-guess God, she is making her redemption a far more difficult project.

Thank you. Kind words

I know that she has stated that her marriage is definitely over.

As for annulment etc she believes that that would be a waste of time as they have just ‘fallen out of love’. No feelings what so ever. Dead partnership of which has been kick started many many times to no avail!

It is a shame. But i understand her and what has gone on in her marriage. Not everyone can live together forever in matrimony. It has take quite a time for her and her husband to acknowledge this, They have tried very hard to keep the marriage.

So, looks like that if she abides by the rules of the church she is doomed to live alone without anyone to love or anyone to love her!

Still cant believe that God would want this!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So, looks like that if she abides by the rules of the church she is doomed to live alone without anyone to love or anyone to love her!

Still cant believe that God would want this!

Have you ever used your future telling skills to try to find lotto numbers?

If she follows God’s will, God will not will her to be lonely, or unfulfilled. If it is about following the rules then you would be right, but those rules have a point don’t they?

Do you worry about her soul and think she has some responsibility here? or do you rail against a God that you do not agree with?

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you. Kind words

I know that she has stated that her marriage is definitely over.

As for annulment etc she believes that that would be a waste of time as they have just ‘fallen out of love’. No feelings what so ever. Dead partnership of which has been kick started many many times to no avail!

It is a shame. But i understand her and what has gone on in her marriage. Not everyone can live together forever in matrimony. It has take quite a time for her and her husband to acknowledge this, They have tried very hard to keep the marriage.

So, looks like that if she abides by the rules of the church she is doomed to live alone without anyone to love or anyone to love her!

Still cant believe that God would want this!

One day at a time. Cross that bridge after the divorce. Whoever got married with an awareness their attempt was too flawed to succeed? Those who have the vocation to marry and who marry validly, however, do have the grace to persevere, even if they temporarily or permanently discern a need to separate with the bond remaining. If two people of good will try so hard to succeed and cannot, though, perhaps in the future a fatal flaw will be recognized. Your sister ought to be patient about both the diagnosis of her marriage and her analysis of her ability to survive without a husband in the house.

Again, it would help a lot if you and she would both drop this absurd rhetoric by which the unmarried are “doomed to live alone without anyone to love or anyone to love” them back. To be unmarried is to be doomed by God? That is totally contrary to the Christian understanding of our human need to be loved. The celibate do not live loveless lives. The saints who never married were not left without anyone to love. Widows and those who cannot marry are not doomed to have no one love them. That is just an awful way to talk, and to be blunt it deeply insults all those Christians who cannot marry or who choose not to do so.

 

[MJJean]

Again, it would help a lot if you and she would both drop this absurd rhetoric by which the unmarried are “doomed to live alone without anyone to love or anyone to love” them back. To be unmarried is to be doomed by God? That is totally contrary to the Christian understanding of our human need to be loved. The celibate do not live loveless lives.

I’ve been thinking the same thing. We keep hearing how the sister will be alone and loveless unless she is with this man. Umm, I thought Ajecphotos was her twin, yes? There must be a great deal of love there. Didn’t Ajec say she has children? Even more great love. Friends? Other family members she is close to? Love and more love. Her church community? Love there, too.

Of course, we have the greatest love of all time in God.

So, how is it that this woman will be unloved unless she is with this man?

 

[EasterJoy]

I’ve been thinking the same thing. We keep hearing how the sister will be alone and loveless unless she is with this man. Umm, I thought Ajecphotos was her twin, yes? There must be a great deal of love there. Didn’t Ajec say she has children? Even more great love. Friends? Other family members she is close to? Love and more love. Her church community? Love there, too.

Of course, we have the greatest love of all time in God.

So, how is it that this woman will be unloved unless she is with this man?

I have seen some tragic cases because people did not believe they could live without a particular forbidden romantic interest or because they didn’t know how to cope with living alone. The desire to have romantic interest can become an obsession that blinds the victim to other areas of true need, and not only when it is an obsession with a particular romantic interest. We come from the factory in need, to love and to be loved, that is true, but that all-consuming kind isn’t the answer. That myth is the source of more ill-advised marriages and broken families than can be counted.

I say this because I also know people who were able to step back and ask, “Why do I keep finding myself in these situations?” They took the time alone to learn what fantasy kept ensnaring them in the wrong relationship with the wrong person or at the wrong time. That fear of being “alone and loveless,” coupled with a false optimism that says that fatal flaws can be cured, if only someone of interest is exciting enough to warrant some super-human effort–True Love Conquers All!–drives many of these bad decisions.

 

[ajecphotos]

I’ve been thinking the same thing. We keep hearing how the sister will be alone and loveless unless she is with this man. Umm, I thought Ajecphotos was her twin, yes? There must be a great deal of love there. Didn’t Ajec say she has children? Even more great love. Friends? Other family members she is close to? Love and more love. Her church community? Love there, too.

Of course, we have the greatest love of all time in God.

So, how is it that this woman will be unloved unless she is with this man?

Love of family or love for family is very different for the love of someone that one has ‘fallen in love with’.

This is what i am on about. My sister, because of the divorce, is not allowed to ‘fall in love’ again due to the church’s teachings! She cannot find a man to love again as to do so is totally against the Catholic teachings.

She has ‘fallen in love’ with a guy but that is just not right, i agree. But, what does one do when it is deep, deep love? This is where it is very very hard to walk away.

Her marriage is totally over! No return. That is a fact.

She has found love again. Its now that i have told her that she has to walk away from this guy as per the Catholic faith. She said she cant do that. She loves him. But, she is willing to live a chaste life. They both are.

I have taken onboard all that you kind people have said and passed it on to her. I can’t live her life for her but i am in deep as she is a massive part of my life.

 

[EasterJoy]

Love of family or love for family is very different for the love of someone that one has ‘fallen in love with’.

This is what i am on about. My sister, because of the divorce, is not allowed to ‘fall in love’ again due to the church’s teachings! She cannot find a man to love again as to do so is totally against the Catholic teachings.

She has ‘fallen in love’ with a guy but that is just not right, i agree. But, what does one do when it is deep, deep love? This is where it is very very hard to walk away.

Her marriage is totally over! No return. That is a fact.

She has found love again. Its now that i have told her that she has to walk away from this guy as per the Catholic faith. She said she cant do that. She loves him. But, she is willing to live a chaste life. They both are.

I have taken onboard all that you kind people have said and passed it on to her. I can’t live her life for her but i am in deep as she is a massive part of my life.

Yes, eros is a lot different than the other sorts of love, and eros is what your sister has with this guy, whether they touch each other or not. You won’t die without letting your eros lead you around by the nose, however. It may feel like that, but you will not die. You’ll suffer like a diabetic suffers when they can’t have all the treats the want. It is real suffering, but it will not kill you. It won’t even cripple you. The boundary is there to keep you healthy, and giving yourself relief from moral boundaries is where the danger is.

There was a point when your sister could have realized she was getting very close to a man who was not her husband. That would have been the time to start getting prudent and controlling the direction her emotions were taking her. You cannot just allow your emotions to go anywhere they tend to go and then plead afterwards that you cannot help where they lead you. If you let them take you somewhere hard to turn back from, well, you just made life hard on yourself. You still need to turn back.

If a priest or a consecrated religious falls into a “deep, deep love,” what is* he or she* supposed to do about it? If Sister Mary falls in love with Father John, would you think it just fine if Sister Mary moved into the priest’s residence, to “live chastely” there with him? That is ridiculous. Separate bedrooms…yeah, right.

If your sister and this deep, deep love of her life intend to live together, they’re not intending on living a chaste life, but a scandalous and imprudent life (at best), and they’ve made their priorities clear. Pleasing God is not on the top of the list.

 

[MJJean]

Love of family or love for family is very different for the love of someone that one has ‘fallen in love with’.

This is what i am on about. My sister, because of the divorce, is not allowed to ‘fall in love’ again due to the church’s teachings! She cannot find a man to love again as to do so is totally against the Catholic teachings.

She has ‘fallen in love’ with a guy but that is just not right, i agree. But, what does one do when it is deep, deep love? This is where it is very very hard to walk away.

Her marriage is totally over! No return. That is a fact.

She has found love again. Its now that i have told her that she has to walk away from this guy as per the Catholic faith. She said she cant do that. She loves him. But, she is willing to live a chaste life. They both are.

I have taken onboard all that you kind people have said and passed it on to her. I can’t live her life for her but i am in deep as she is a massive part of my life.

No, the love of family and friends is not the same as romantic love. But the way you’ve been posting is as if your sister will live a lonely and joyless existence without a new romantic partner. The truth is that many single people have very active and full lives, despite having inappropriate feelings for someone they can’t have, and are quite content. The problem is that it takes maturity, self-discipline, and effort.

Her marriage is not over. Civilly, she can be divorced and free to remarry. But the uncomfortable truth is that unless she applies for and receives an annulment she is still married to her husband until one of them dies. Her paramour is also in the same position. Unless he applies for and receives an annulment he is also still married to his wife until one of them dies. That’s the reality.

She an fall in love as often as she wants with as many men as she wants, but she cannot act on those feelings in any way without being declared free to marry by the Church.

Yes, she can walk away. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it can be done. She is choosing not to do that. It’s not an “I can’t” situation. It’s an “I won’t” situation. Very big difference.

We’ve expressed our opinions on their ability to be chaste. They couldn’t manage that much living separately. They aren’t going to manage it living together. She’s either lying to herself, to you, or both.

And, again, if they aren’t going to be anything but platonic they have zero reasons to move in together. None, Zip, Zilch. Nada.

She “couldn’t help” falling in love with this guy. She “couldn’t help” getting some level of physical with him at one point. She’s planning on living with him. It’s a pretty safe bet that in the future you’ll be hearing about how the temptation while living together was too strong and she “couldn’t help” falling into bed and committing physical adultery with him.

 

[ajecphotos]

All valid points people, thanks.

For her to ‘walk away’ is almost impossible as she has fallen in love with this guy! So hard to walk away when that happens. Not everyone can be so brutal. I know she has to do that but talking to her i know it is almost impossible.

As for living a chaste life, this can be done as many have done so over the years! She just wants to be with the man she now loves without committing to a sexual relationship! Again, not everyone ‘has’ to give in to sex!

 

[EasterJoy]

…As for living a chaste life, this can be done as many have done so over the years! …

Really? Name one couple. I’ve never heard of it. I’ve heard of a lot of people in tortured emotional affairs with their “soul mates” who never consummated their relationships, but not while divorced and living in the same house!

Even if it could be done, that does not address the issue of scandal, because a sexual relationship will be presumed. This is especially true if they are so hot for each other that she cannot imagine living in separate quarters. If your sister thinks anyone is going to believe that she and her lover were driven to co-habitate as platonic friends, she is in Fantasyland.

Brutal? I don’t know. I know it is true.

She sounds like she is on a one-way rhetorical train out of Holy Mother Church, because she can’t allow herself to believe that “falling in love” doesn’t excuse violations of the 6th and 10th Commandments. A Christian on fire for someone he or she is not free to marry should stay clear of that someone until the situation changes.

Honestly, I worry about your sister being in a rebound relationship, as well.

• If, on the other hand, he is an emotional, gullible man, feed him on minor poets and fifth-rate novelists of the old school until you have made him believe that “Love” is both irresistible and somehow intrinsically meritorious. This belief is not much help, I grant you, in producing casual unchastity; but it is an incomparable recipe for prolonged, “noble”, romantic, tragic adulteries, ending, if all goes well, in murders and suicides.*
  C. S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters, Letter 19

 

[ajecphotos]

Really? Name one couple. I’ve never heard of it. I’ve heard of a lot of people in tortured emotional affairs with their “soul mates” who never consummated their relationships, but not while divorced and living in the same house!

Even if it could be done, that does not address the issue of scandal, because a sexual relationship will be presumed. This is especially true if they are so hot for each other that she cannot imagine living in separate quarters. If your sister thinks anyone is going to believe that she and her lover were driven to co-habitate as platonic friends, she is in Fantasyland.

Brutal? I don’t know. I know it is true.

She sounds like she is on a one-way rhetorical train out of Holy Mother Church, because she can’t allow herself to believe that “falling in love” doesn’t excuse violations of the 6th and 10th Commandments. A Christian on fire for someone he or she is not free to marry should stay clear of that someone until the situation changes.

Honestly, I worry about your sister being in a rebound relationship, as well.

• If, on the other hand, he is an emotional, gullible man, feed him on minor poets and fifth-rate novelists of the old school until you have made him believe that “Love” is both irresistible and somehow intrinsically meritorious. This belief is not much help, I grant you, in producing casual unchastity; but it is an incomparable recipe for prolonged, “noble”, romantic, tragic adulteries, ending, if all goes well, in murders and suicides.*
  C. S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters, Letter 19

Sad as i am sure God would not be so quick to condemn her or to have no faith in her! His Mercy knows no bounds.

 

[HollowGhost]

Emotional affair. Still an affair. Giving to another that which should belong to the spouse. Involved parties should cut it out and hit the bench at confessional tomorrow if not today, build in accountability and boundaries. Stop it right now, this would devastate the “non loving” spouses if they knew, which is why they don’t know, right?

OK, I will chime in from one who just woke in the middle of the night and vomited due to still recovering from wife’s infidelity. I whole-heartily agree: EMOTIONAL INFIDELITY IS HOW ALL INFIDELITY BEGINS!!! My wife started out playing Word Feud with a “friend” in the evenings on the iPad; innocent enough but it was the beginning of the breakdown of BOUNDARIES!!

HollowGhost

 

[EasterJoy]

Sad as i am sure God would not be so quick to condemn her or to have no faith in her! His Mercy knows no bounds.

She is proposing to do what she is quite aware that moral law forbids. It is a sin to go ahead with sin with the intention of presuming upon the mercy of God and the help of grace. We do not go wading merrily into a near occasion of sin on the assumption that God will rescue us from a fall we ourselves neglected to avoid! Do not put God to the test but reverently exert your will to observe his decrees! Then you will find good help in avoiding the snares of the evil one, the one who prowls the world, seeking the ruin of souls.

 

[EasterJoy]

OK, I will chime in from one who just woke in the middle of the night and vomited due to still recovering from wife’s infidelity. I whole-heartily agree: EMOTIONAL INFIDELITY IS HOW ALL INFIDELITY BEGINS!!! My wife started out playing Word Feud with a “friend” in the evenings on the iPad; innocent enough but it was the beginning of the breakdown of BOUNDARIES!!

HollowGhost

Emotional infidelity to the Commandments goes the same way.

These two people need to find other support to discern how to navigate their broken marriages. If it turns out that their marriages are indeed invalid, they would be free to consider marriage. Their attempt would be on a right foundation that way, and a far firmer one. Serve God first, seek to do His will first, and the rest falls gracefully (literally) into place. Know that you can deceive yourself, and trust that God’s way, in contrast, will not lead you wrong.

 

[ajecphotos]

She is proposing to do what she is quite aware that moral law forbids. It is a sin to go ahead with sin with the intention of presuming upon the mercy of God and the help of grace. We do not go wading merrily into a near occasion of sin on the assumption that God will rescue us from a fall we ourselves neglected to avoid! Do not put God to the test but reverently exert your will to observe his decrees! Then you will find good help in avoiding the snares of the evil one, the one who prowls the world, seeking the ruin of souls.

But, they have done everything to try to save her marriage! They are getting divorced. What is wrong on calling Gods Mercy to help guide them through this difficult time?

Its not a matter of ‘wading’ merrily into a near occasion of sin as they have both been at pains to do this right! Ok, they are sinning in the eyes of God but they are asking for Gods help. They are not assuming God will help but, remember, God is Mercy! What makes you think he would turn his back? God can choose to do what he wants. He doesn’t have to stick to any written rule!

Wasn’t it so that people complained to Jesus in the NT about people doing things that were written that shouldn’t have been done, like working on the Sabbath and he turned round and corrected them!

Ok, we have rules, but God can see we are all individuals and he will help those that deserve helping! He would never tar everyone with the same brush. One mans divorce can be very different to the next.

God is not being put to the test. Prayer is what is being done. Prayer for guidance.