Advanced Scripture Study?

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TimothyH

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Several people at my Church and I are looking for what we would term as an advanced scripture study. It must be authentically and organically Catholic - not a Protestant study nor a Protestant retread for Catholics.

Some of the stuff out there is quite frankly, a bit shallow. Even the better commercially available studies such as Great Adventur/Jeff Cavins and the one’s put out by Scott Hahn are great, but we are looking for something more long term and deeper, possibly even something using a seminary level curriculum if that makes sense.

Any thoughts? Do we have to sit in on courses at the seminary? Or does anyone know of a a source for more long term, very in depth Catholic study we can do?

I’m sure we could use some of the tools listed by Dr. Hahn at scotthahn.com/tools-for-bible-study.html, but I thought I would throw it out there to see if something were commercially available out of a box rather than having to invent a one-off study on our own.

-Tim-.
 
TimothyH said:
an advanced scripture study. .

Some of the stuff out there is quite frankly, a bit shallow.

Any thoughts? Do we have to sit in on courses at the seminary? Or does anyone know of a a source for more long term, very in depth Catholic study we can do?

-Tim-.
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Like so many threads, this thread starts with a vague set of conditions. It’s vague in the sense that even if I thought I could answer the question (which I can’t), there are so many assumptions or alternatives that I’d have to answer to try to hit the target of what you’re searching for.

What does advanced scripture study mean to you?
What does it mean when you say some stuff is shallow?

when you step over The New Jerome Biblical Commentary and other resources on Hahn’s list, I can only think that you want to know when God is going to be in town next and if He’s available for a couple semesters.

but, seriously.

I sort of know what you mean. Perhaps you’re looking for a modern study that discusses the four senses of scripture? I’ve never seen a book so far that explicitly discusses this.

There are so many approaches to studying scripture, none of which is the sole analytical tool that the church uses (see Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, pontifical biblical commission, around 1993). this is one dimension where your question is so vague. You think there’s an advanced study that covers ALL of these? I doubt it.

And, then, throw in the Catechism … well, would a bible study that cross-references the Catechism be too basic for you? I don’t think there’s more than a couple books in the last 10 years that attempt this on even a casual level – certainly not exhaustive, like the Ignatius Study Bible - New Testament.

Whew! You guys and gals must be really advanced, if you’re beyond the several requirements that I laid out.

I don’t know that there’s even one book of the Bible that’s had even this much coordinated attention.

I’m reading the 275+ pages of notes in The Jewish Study Bible (Oxford U. Press) that survey the history of Jewish Bible study. After twenty centuries of study, they’re still working on the understanding of the plain sense of the text. (peshat), which includes the latest in philogical analysis (meaning of the words).

The only essential way of studying scripture, to the Jews, is at the level of the native language of the text. Perhaps your group would like to ‘advance’ to the study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

the essays about Jewish studies point out how political the process of Bible study can be. It certainly is influenced by the general state of knowledge at the time. One of the authors of these essays says that it is hard to define what Jewish study is, because it just seems to be so objective to them that they’re hard pressed to say what is Jewish about it.

Someone points out that Jewish and Christian studies tends towards their respective theological points of view. You’ve already stated that you want a study that has the Catholic point of view. So, that’s very good, that’s a key issue.
 
Yes, please, if there is ANYONE out there with titles of good advanced scripture books, please post them. Please.

Once you’ve gone through all the Scott Hahn tapes, and all the usual apologetic Catholic books, in fact, once you’ve read and digested it all, where is there to go? As far as I have found–and please, if there is anyone out there with better info, let me know!–all that’s left is to start reading the actual books written by actual biblical scholars.

And let me assure you, it is NOT easy picking your way through them. There are so few lists of advanced biblical scholarship that Catholics would be interested in. The 'Singing in the Reign" blog by Catholic PhDs Bergsma, Pitre, and Barber, is one place to hunt down good titles, books much more advanced than the ones Scott Hahn suggests.

I WISH SOMEONE WOULD MAKE UP MORE LISTS.

It’s taken me years even to pick out the atheists, squishy liberals, believing Protestants, etc., silly theories, not to mention what good Catholic arguments there are against some of the current biblical scholarship fads. Years.

Furthermore, your local library won’t have a single one of the books. They are almost all strictly university library books. You’ll have to wait through weeks and months for inter library loans, and even then, lots of books will be simply unattainable. New, they cost 25 dollars or more; used, but valuable, they can cost 100-200 APIECE. Sigh.

Here are four I have found that might be of interest to some of you, and they are so well known you might actually find them in your city library:

Lord Jesus Christ by Larry Hurtado. A Protestant scholar, he argues Paul included in his epistles hymns to Jesus that predated even Paul’s epistles, putting them likely in the first decade of Christianity. The hymns clearly show Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

Judaism and Hellenism by Martin Hengel–Hengel was a very famous scholar, although he has since passed away. Again, a Protestant, so I would suggest that Catholics take everything he says with a small grain of Catholic salt. However, this book was a very important book. Hengel argued that yes, Jews were Hellenized in some ways in the centuries before Christ–but not at all in their religion. Which, in fact, they clung to with growing devotion.

Jesus and the Eyewitnesses by Richard Bauckham. Again, a Protestant. (Why, why, why aren’t there more Catholic biblical scholars?) Argues that the gospels are eyewitness accounts.

A Separate God by Simone Petrement–a number of her arguments do not agree with Catholic beliefs. But this is still one book you need to be aware of because there are soo many people out there (Ehrman and Pagels fly to mind) wrongly arguing that Gnosticism was merely a variant of Christianity, and, what’s more, they are ever so sure, a much, much better variant. Petrement argues and pretty much proves Gnosticism simply didn’t exist until at least one hundred years after the birth of Christianity.

These are just a few, I could list lots more. Is anyone else out there interested? Anybody else have a list of books to read?

Besides titles, I would really love to discuss biblical scholars and their arguments. Would anyone else be interested in that?

Anyway, God bless everyone, Annem
 
@Crumpy, thank you for taking the time to type up that long response. The fact that you put in that much effort means more to me than you know. I’m sorry if my question was somehow vague or out of line and I’m sorry if it upset you. If you come across any commercially available studies with any of the attributes you mentioned, I would be very interested to hear what you have to say.

@annem, thank you as well. The four studies you mention sound very good, but I’m really looking for something organically Catholic. Keep looking and post if you find anything.

What I’m really looking for is something along the lines of Precept upon Precept by Kay Arthur, but not something that started as a protestant study and subsequently adapted to Catholicism.

-Tim-
 
Other notes … The Catholic Company sells The Great Adventure and has another series that I’ve heard good things about - “Come and See”. More info and prices here:

catholiccompany.com/bible-studies-c828/

I’ve recently picked up a couple of other books to help with Bible Study. Kimberly Hahn (Scott Hahn’s wife) and Michael Barber have a great book that gives a wonderful guide through Scripture, “Genesis To Jesus: Studying Scripture From the Heart of the Church”:

amazon.com/Genesis-Jesus-Studying-Scripture-Journey/dp/0867168374/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330873378&sr=1-1

And Michael Barber has a great walkthrough of the Book of Revelation entitled, “Coming Soon: Unlocking the Book of Revelation and Applying Its Lessons Today”:

amazon.com/Coming-Soon-Unlocking-Revelation-Applying/dp/193101826X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330873455&sr=1-1
 
I’ve been through “The Bible Timeline” and “The King and His Kingdom” by Great Adventure and will be facilitating the study of Revelation also by Great Adventure/Jeff Cavins. I have also sampled the material from the study of Romans by Catholic Scripture Study Internationals and plan on working through that on my own in my spare time.

Don’t get me wrong, they are excellent studies and I came away from The Bible Timeline feeling like a genious. What I am looking for however, is something more advanced than Great Adventure, CSSI, or Agape.

Maybe it doesn’t exist, but is there something commercially available whereby a group of people can hunker down and study a topic or a book or author for a year or two at a very advanced level. I’m thinking something like the 213, 302 or 305 courses listed at http://www.franciscan.edu/Theology/Classes/ or something like that related directly to scripture.

Just wondering if something like that is commercially avialable outside of the university setting.

-Tim-
 
Re: Why aren’t there more Catholic scholars of the Bible?

Well, there are. It’s just that the vast majority of them wrote in Latin and Greek, and most of that stuff hasn’t been translated into English, or even into French and German.

Seriously, there are huge amounts of incredibly deep Bible studies out there. But in many cases, there’s a disconnect between the vast body of pre-modern Biblical literature (mostly Catholic), the modern Biblical scholars from before 1950 or so, and the sorts of post-Vatican II, post-1960’s stuff that a lot of Catholic universities have emphasized over the last forty years. That’s a big problem. (But the good news is that so many pre-modern sources are now online, that it’s not impossible to bridge those gaps.)

Then, the stuff that is modern Catholic Bible stuff that’s good, is often found in scholarly journals published in Europe and written in European languages. Ignatius Press sometimes translates stuff by these folks, but they have kind of a theology interest, rather than just Scripture stuff.

So yeah, it’s all about dig dig dig for yourself. Though maybe other sources will show up on this thread.
 
TimothyH said:
Several people at my Church and I are looking for what we would term as an advanced scripture study. It must be authentically and organically Catholic - not a Protestant study nor a Protestant retread for Catholics…

Any thoughts? Do we have to sit in on courses at the seminary? Or does anyone know of a a source for more long term, very in depth Catholic study we can do?
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I don’t know of a tidy pre-packaged Scripture study set, but I do know of a way to get the kind of quality Catholic information that you are seeking. Basically, you don’t have to go to a seminary lecture, because the seminary lecture can come to you.

In particular, I recommend the CD lectures given by John Bergsma and Dr. Brant Pitre. Their CDs and lecture outlines can be gotten from Catholic Productions. Both Pitre and Bergsma teach Scripture and theology in college, and I can assure you that their material fits your desire for it to be authentically Catholic (for example, they are friends of Dr. Scott Hahn and often join him to teach at conferences). I also know this from personal experience, having attended a number of their lectures and listened to several of their CDs.

Some of the CDs offered are actual recordings of semester-long college courses. For example, I am almost finished listening to Dr. Bergma’s course on the Gospel of John, called John: Signs and Sacraments. This is billed as an “advanced study” and in the introduction he clearly states his lectures will presume that the student already knows the rudiments of Scripture study. Nevertheless, in my opinion, he does not go too far afield concerning the terminology he uses, and does not presume that his audience is fluent in Greek or Hebrew (or even knowledgeable of them).

I can also personally affirm that this is, indeed, an “advanced study”. I previously studied the Gospel of John as a graduate student in theology (in a Catholic institution), but while listening to Bergsma’ lectures on John, I found myself learning a ton of things I never knew before.

Unfortunately, if you decide to use such material, then all you will get is a CD of the lectures and lecture outlines (and lecture outlines are not available for each CD; such was the case with the above mentioned class on the Gospel of John). So there are no books, study guides, discussion questions, etc., specifically designed to accompany these courses.

These professors are slowly getting books published as well. For example, Dr. Pitre has given Scripture courses regarding the typology of the Eucharist in the Old Testament, which has been presented in his CD lecture, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist (and there is an abbreviated version available through Lighthouse Media, but naturally I recommend the fuller version for the sort of thing you are describing). Recently this material was published in a book by the same name. So, at least in this case, you would have audio and book resources going over the same material.

But until more books get published by these people, learning their material as part of a Scripture study group would usually involve sitting around a stereo and listening to each class, and I don’t know if that’s the sort of venue that would interest you and your group. I think it is still a workable idea though. For example, if a group wanted to study the Gospel of John, they could read the first few chapters of John in their Bibles (on their own) and then gather to listen to Bergsma’ lecture on those chapters. A group discussion could then follow. Then the group would do the same process for the next couple of chapters, and so on.
 
These professors are slowly getting books published as well. For example, Dr. Pitre has given Scripture courses regarding the typology of the Eucharist in the Old Testament, which has been presented in his CD lecture, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist.

I just want to second this suggestion by Ericfilmer. I think you could go far and do much worse than to start off with this particular set of lecture materials.
 
I just received a volume called Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture from InterVarsity Press.

This series of books is recommended by no less than Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J. There are a number of other priests who have recommended the series.

nevertheless, this is a series from a conspicuously protestant evangelical publishing house (as I reckon it). I’m reading the commentary on Romans. The editors call these books the Christian “Talmud” on the New Testament (and indeed the whole Bible). I’m just about 25 pages into this first volume.

The first selection from romans was the first 7 verses of Chapter One. After the quotation from the Revised Standard Version, there were 15 pages of quotations from a variety of christian writers in the early church. They are patristic commentaries.

I think the book so far is excellent. I think it would go well alongside the Ignatius Study Bible, for example

You can find this series of commentaries on the Intervarsity Press website. I have not seen as well-developed commentary as these (so far). But, that’s all it consists of, is all these quotations following a scripture quotation.

I don’t know that the commentaries in this series would go well with a group study, but they look pretty good for private study (which I do). This volume on Romans is not a ‘course’ or study guide. But, it’s definitely high quality.
 
TimothyH said:
@Crumpy, thank you for taking the time to type up that long response. The fact that you put in that much effort means more to me than you know. I’m sorry if my question was somehow vague or out of line and I’m sorry if it upset you. If you come across any commercially available studies with any of the attributes you mentioned, I would be very interested to hear what you have to say.

@annem, thank you as well. The four studies you mention sound very good, but I’m really looking for something organically Catholic. Keep looking and post if you find anything.

What I’m really looking for is something along the lines of Precept upon Precept by Kay Arthur, but not something that started as a protestant study and subsequently adapted to Catholicism.

-Tim-
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Sorry if I get too excited with some of my responses. I’m the first to want to know what’s out there and where to dig in. Studying on my own, I can change gears and direction quickly.

I’m not impatient with you,but with the Church, on this very question. The Church, if anything, has underscored the study of Aquinas for seminarians. I don’t know how that bodes for Catholics thirsting for “more” bible studies.

Scott Hahn was speaking about his personal home situation and he had to negotiate with his wife both the space and the money for all the books that he has collected and continues to collect. I’m sure I’m way down the scale from him in both available space and budget. He may delve into more technical publications, whereas I’m looking for those whose aim is to bring the discussion down to the level of — me.

Frankly, I’m my own worst enemy. I read through some books, like the Jewish Commentaries on the Torah, from the Jewish Publication Society. But, I’m sure that even a slow once-through is not enough for me. I need to read those again. I forget the stories in Genesis, for example. I forget some of the explanations that they give, especially the obscure stuff, like the red heiffer.

Spending a couple years on that has heightened my sense of the comparison of Moses and Jesus, for example. There are essays in the Jewish Study Bible which unpack how really large a figure Moses is. One guy calls Moses “the perfect man.” Well, that’s good for me, only to heighten my awareness of Jesus himself, in the comparison to Moses.

It’s rather interesting to me that Jesus’ ministry begins at the Jordan River, in the same vicinity where Moses died. Moses died on the mountain, looking down at the very place where Jesus would later come and begin his ministry. I think that raises the level of the discussion of Jesus’ baptism (in the first place).

I head a Protestant minister’s sermon once (on radio) where he said that if a preacher focused on only four verses of scripture each Sunday, he wouldn’t exhaust the bible for 27 years, before he had to go back and start over. That’d be more years for the Catholic canon of scripture.

On EWTN, Fr. William Rutler mentioned that a priest should be able to take a few verses of scripture and preach for 52 Sundays on it (and just scratch the surface of it).

To end with a concrete suggestion, check out the essays on St. Paul in The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. There’s some deep analysis in there, worth working through slowly.
 
Re: the InterVarsity Press thing –

That’s a very strong series. You do miss out on reading the Fathers’ comments in context of the work itself (although I guess some come with CDs or links to translations of the actual works), because most of that series of commentaries chunk up the commentaries by verse and set excerpts side by side, without including the whole schmole. This leads you to wonder what was left out.

But on the other hand, it is very nice to see a broad range of ancient Catholic opinions, and to be able to see them in context with each other and the Bible.

Some of the later books in the series respond to this criticism by printing several commentaries whole, one right after another, instead of chunking them up. You can still work back and forth, but you get more understanding of each work’s priorities and interests, and each writer’s objectives.
 
You might like to check out a Q&A programme I listened to on 29th February 2012 on Catholic Answers. In the programme Dr Schmiedicke describes a bible study programme he runs which sounds quite intensive.

Renewing Catholic Bible Study
Dr. Natahn Schmiedicke
catholic.com/radio/shows/renewing-catholic-bible-study-6836

This is Dr Schmiedicke’s website which will give you some information about Classical and Catholic Biblical Studies
classicalliberalarts.com/page.cfm/page/240/Catholic-and-Classica

.Some of the stuff out there is quite frankly, a bit shallow.

One doesn’t teach algebra to a first grader and one doesn’t speak slightingly of the first grader because he/she can’t understand algebra. I will probably never reach your Olympian heights in biblical study but as long as I am coming closer to Jesus I am content.

Some who posted here might be interested in:
Catholic Scriptures, Jewish Commentary - Annotated Jewish New Testament
catholicworldreport.com/Item/1171/christian_scriptures_jewish_commentary.aspx
 
I’m sorry I asked the question in the original post and would like to offer my sincere apologies to anyone who was offended. I really didn’t mean to offend anyone or call anyone shallow. That was not the intent of my post and I’m sorry if that was the result.

I’m glad everyone has found ways to study scripture. My Bible is one of my most cherished posessions. Very little makes me happier than to meet a Catholic who has a love for Sacred Scripture and venerates the holy word of God.

I’m simply looking for a study which is not a Protestant retread for Catholics and is longer and deeper than the commercially available 24 week studies from Hahn and Cavins.

Maybe that’s all I should have said.

If anyone knows of such a thing, please send me a PM.

-Tim-
 
Timothy, you may want to look at the Sacra Pagina series, edited by Daniel Harrington, SJ. It is pretty advanced, but not so that you have to have a degree in Bible Studies to follow it. It is only for the New Testament and Harrington, et al, pull no punches about Catholic theology, so it is not a Protestant retread.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Timothy, you may want to look at the Sacra Pagina series, edited by Daniel Harrington, SJ. It is pretty advanced, but not so that you have to have a degree in Bible Studies to follow it. It is only for the New Testament and Harrington, et al, pull no punches about Catholic theology, so it is not a Protestant retread.
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Although this is not a “Study” in the sense of those that are currently commercially available, this series does look very promising.

Thank you!

I may try Hebrews.

-Tim-
 
Tim, I taught Hebrews out of the Sacra Pagina series. I think you will it takes your scholarship to another level of understanding. It gives great context to the writing, Good luck.
 
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