Advent vestments in blue

[Allen537]

It has been indulted for certain orders, and for certain Marian shrines, for use on Marian feasts only.

Do you know where a list of these Orders can be found? I have heard that my Order has this indult, since we were the first Marian Order in the Church. It would be nice to verify if what I have heard is true.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[johnnykins]

While I cannot give you a book source for this method, this was the method presented to us by the Director of the Worship Office in the Archdiocese I studied in. He is a liturgist, trained at Notre Dame.

From the GIRM:

1. As to the color of sacred vestments, the traditional usage is to be retained: namely,

d. Violet or purple is used in Advent and of Lent. It may also be worn in Offices and Masses for the Dead (cf. below).

Looking at the way it is stated, many priests and liturgists I know interpret it to mean violet for Advent, and Purple for Lent.

It isn’t Dogma, but is, in my experience, widely interpreted in this way.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

I’m certainly not saying you are wrong, however, “liturgists” have often been wrong, deceptive and out of control. Before any such assertion is made as to the difference in hues being “recommended” - some official publication to that effect really should be presented. Otherwise a statement that “a liturgist I knew” or some such qualifier really should be applied.

I really don’t see how your comment on the phrasing gets any traction absent an agenda. Unfortunately, I’ve know far too many liturgists with an agenda that disregards both tradition and the rubrics. I note that “traditional usage” has no claim to the difference - that I am aware of (note qualifier). If there is something in tradition older than 40 years, I would love to see a cite.

 

[johnnykins]

The more things change…and all that.

On December 5, 2006 I posted the following:

In light of the thread on blue vestments and the position posited that the violet of Advent is bluer than the redder violet of Lent, it is traditional that the rose of Advent is lighter - pinker if you will - than the more fuschia rose of Lent. This tradition is due to the fact that Advent, being before Christmas, reflects the light pink of the newborn Babe. The pure joy of the infant, and His glow is best expressed in this joyful light pink hue. The darker rose of Lent reflects the mixture of the red blood of the Passion and the dilution by the water from the side of the Paschal Victim. Also, the joy of the pink morning sky of resurrection is captured by the darker Rose.

Of course, all of the above was just made up by your truly. (It was a very new tradition of a shorter life!!) It’s garbage wrapped in the mushy sentimentality of the horse hooey that is foisted upon us with regularity. Bluer rather than redder purple! GACH!!! If the above does become a tradition - please advise so I can do the appropriate penance.

:banghead:

 

[malphono]

In the Roman Church
Blue is used in Spain, Mexico, South America, and Portugal for Marian Feasts (everything-vestment.com/vestment_colors.html and canticanova.com/articles/xmas/art1c1.htm )

It has been indulted for certain orders, and for certain Marian shrines, for use on Marian feasts only.

In other Churches in Union
The Byzantine Tradition “recognizes” two liturgical colors… Light and Dark. Tradition dictates what the actual colors used should be… and Marian feasts are blue.

The same is basically true for, at least, the Syriac Churches (Syriac and Maronite). For Marian feasts, normally either blue is used or at least white with blue trim.

As an aside, and as far as I know, there is no proscription in the Roman Rite in general against the use of blue trim. I recall same being used for Marian feasts in the US in pre-conciliar times.

 

[Allen537]

I’m certainly not saying you are wrong, however, “liturgists” have often been wrong, deceptive and out of control. Before any such assertion is made as to the difference in hues being “recommended” - some official publication to that effect really should be presented. Otherwise a statement that “a liturgist I knew” or some such qualifier really should be applied.

I really don’t see how your comment on the phrasing gets any traction absent an agenda. Unfortunately, I’ve know far too many liturgists with an agenda that disregards both tradition and the rubrics. I note that “traditional usage” has no claim to the difference - that I am aware of (note qualifier). If there is something in tradition older than 40 years, I would love to see a cite.

I see what you are saying. And I would agree with you.

However, liturgists are the experts in this field. Granted there is always the possibility that an agenda is at work (for better or for worse). But this is the reality when human beings make decisions.

I have not been able to find any “official” documentation other than the GIRM itself, which carries the weight of law and not recommendation.

So, in light of this lack of documentation, My mind set is the following:

I would say that since this particular liturgist is the head of the worship office for a very large Archdiocese, which is run by a very conservative Archbishop, I think we can trust his interpretation of the GIRM to be faithful to the Church.

That is my personal view on it anyways.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[malphono]

Do you know where a list of these Orders can be found? I have heard that my Order has this indult, since we were the first Marian Order in the Church. It would be nice to verify if what I have heard is true.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

I also believe that O.Carm has the indult to use blue. (Well, at least I believe O. Carm had it, though it may have been bound to the now (very unfortunately) moribund Carmelite usage. In that case the indult, if it actually existed, would also be moribund). You might try contacting some of the retired Carmelites at St Albert’s (New York Province) for a lead. Good luck, and please post if you are successful.

 

[MusicMan]

I am not certain that “liturgists” are experts in the field. The Chief Liturgist of a Diocese is the Bishop, a parish, the Pastor. One does not need a lay person “planning” the Mass itself. The Holy Mother Church has already done that, which is why we have the GIRM, Lectionary, and Sacramentary.

Scheduling lay ministers, such as readers, sacristans, lay people serving as emsHC, and musicians would fall under the responsibility of a “liturgist.”

Making sure that the servers are properly trained would be under the responsibilty of a “liturgist.” Ordering appropriate supplies for Mass, the Divine Office, etc. would be the job of a “liturgist.” Assisting the faithful in learning to pray Morning and Evening Prayer (and perhaps presiding over it on occassion) would be the job of a “liturgist.”

Selecting appropriate music would be the job of a “liturgist.”

Deciding what color the vestments for Advent or Lent are is not the job of a “liturgist.” That job has been done by the Church and her wishes are in the GIRM. It is up to the pastor’s aesthetic tastes to select appropriate vestments within the scope of the GIRM.

Period.

Why these “litugists” have all the power is beyond me. Their time would be better spent ordering enough hosts for Mass this Sunday.

 

[johnnykins]

I see what you are saying. And I would agree with you.

However, liturgists are the experts in this field. Granted there is always the possibility that an agenda is at work (for better or for worse). But this is the reality when human beings make decisions.

I have not been able to find any “official” documentation other than the GIRM itself, which carries the weight of law and not recommendation.

So, in light of this lack of documentation, My mind set is the following:

I would say that since this particular liturgist is the head of the worship office for a very large Archdiocese, which is run by a very conservative Archbishop, I think we can trust his interpretation of the GIRM to be faithful to the Church.

That is my personal view on it anyways.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

I wish I could agree with you, but I don’t. I understand that it is a personal opinion. It’s certainly one of the fruits of the Springtime of Vatican II that I am not bound by the older clericalism and mandatory obeisance to the opinion of clerics that so permeated the Church then and can disagree publicly with a vowed Brother as well as the liturgist for a large Archdiocese. In the interest of full disclosure, I disagreed with many decisions and actions of the liturgist recently sacked by the Pope who held that position for Pope JPII for so many years!!

In any event, here is an interesting article on the matter:
canticanova.com/articles/xmas/art1c1.htm

 

[Allen537]

I also believe that O.Carm has the indult to use blue. (Well, at least I believe O. Carm had it, though it may have been bound to the now (very unfortunately) moribund Carmelite usage. In that case the indult, if it actually existed, would also be moribund). You might try contacting some of the retired Carmelites at St Albert’s (New York Province) for a lead. Good luck, and please post if you are successful.

Thanks for your post, I’ll run across the street and ask the guys, lol. My priory is across the street and I go to Sunday Mass at the Shrine, so I see the older friars quite often.

I too am very sad to see the Carmelite Rite has been put aside. I would love to see it, I am told that it is a very beautiful, but very complicated, rite. I have considered asking one of the retired friars to “go through the motions” of the rite on video tape, just to see how it was done, and hopefully learn it in anticipation that the rite is restored.

I will let you know what they say!

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[Allen537]

I wish I could agree with you, but I don’t. I understand that it is a personal opinion. It’s certainly one of the fruits of the Springtime of Vatican II that I am not bound by the older clericalism and mandatory obeisance to the opinion of clerics that so permeated the Church then and can disagree publicly with a vowed Brother as well as the liturgist for a large Archdiocese. In the interest of full disclosure, I disagreed with many decisions and actions of the liturgist recently sacked by the Pope who held that position for Pope JPII for so many years!!

In any event, here is an interesting article on the matter:
canticanova.com/articles/xmas/art1c1.htm

That is a most interesting article, some very good points. I do get upset when priests start using blue in place of violet, reasoning that Bluish- purple somehow translates into solid blue.

I am all for open discussion! I encounter people that I disagree with all the time, and vice-versa. But don’t feel too bad, I am not a vowed brother yet. I finished my college seminary last May and am in the Novitiate right now. Six months down, six months to go!

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[Aramis]

Do you know where a list of these Orders can be found? I have heard that my Order has this indult, since we were the first Marian Order in the Church. It would be nice to verify if what I have heard is true.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

No, I don’t. I’ve seen references to the indult in various documents, but nothing I’ve to hand at the moment.

Check with your superior-general’s office!

 

[malphono]

Thanks for your post, I’ll run across the street and ask the guys, lol. My priory is across the street and I go to Sunday Mass at the Shrine, so I see the older friars quite often.

I too am very sad to see the Carmelite Rite has been put aside. I would love to see it, I am told that it is a very beautiful, but very complicated, rite. I have considered asking one of the retired friars to “go through the motions” of the rite on video tape, just to see how it was done, and hopefully learn it in anticipation that the rite is restored.

I will let you know what they say!

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

Isn’t that an interesting coincidence!!! If you can’t get across the road, you might ask JH. He should be able to remember how things were.

Now if you can get across the road, the “old guys” at St Albert’s (some of whom were JH’s teachers anyway) will undoubtedly have the best (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m sure that, (if health permits), they would be good mentors.

The Carmelite usage was just lovely. A true jewel. Lots of history and theology there. Deo volente it will be able to emerge from its forced sleep. I know that the Dominicans had a rescript from 1969(?) that permits the ancient usage with the permission of the Prior Provincial, and somehow I think O. Carm may have the same. Please, if anything comes of the resuscitation of the Missale Carmelitanum, post it to Traditional Catholicism. That would be truly an item of interest. Further, I think the folks at NLM would also be interested in that.

 

[johnnykins]

That is a most interesting article, some very good points. I do get upset when priests start using blue in place of violet, reasoning that Bluish- purple somehow translates into solid blue.

I am all for open discussion! I encounter people that I disagree with all the time, and vice-versa. But don’t feel too bad, I am not a vowed brother yet. I finished my college seminary last May and am in the Novitiate right now. Six months down, six months to go!

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

Best of everything to you. If you can deal happily with the curmudgeons on this Forum, you will make a great Brother/Priest.

Pax te cum

 

[Allen537]

Isn’t that an interesting coincidence!!! If you can’t get across the road, you might ask JH. He should be able to remember how things were.

Now if you can get across the road, the “old guys” at St Albert’s (some of whom were JH’s teachers anyway) will undoubtedly have the best (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m sure that, (if health permits), they would be good mentors.

The Carmelite usage was just lovely. A true jewel. Lots of history and theology there. Deo volente it will be able to emerge from its forced sleep. I know that the Dominicans had a rescript from 1969(?) that permits the ancient usage with the permission of the Prior Provincial, and somehow I think O. Carm may have the same. Please, if anything comes of the resuscitation of the Missale Carmelitanum, post it to Traditional Catholicism. That would be truly an item of interest. Further, I think the folks at NLM would also be interested in that.

Yes, the “old guys” across the street are wonderful guys, and very informative indeed. I will look into that rescript, if it applies to us as well, that would be amazing. I would truly love to celebrate that Mass in the future.

And pardon my ignorance, who is JH? Is he someone from these forums?

Thanks for your help!

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[Allen537]

Best of everything to you. If you can deal happily with the curmudgeons on this Forum, you will make a great Brother/Priest.

Pax te cum

Thank you very much! Please keep me in your prayers!!!

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[Harri_Laaksonen]

Interesting series of posts. As a Lutheran testing the Tiber, I have been in the midst of that vestment discussion. When Blue became an alternative to Violet for Advent, I suggested it to my parish. The violet vestments and frontals were pretty old and very Lenten in theme.

The ladies of the parish had made a new set of green vestments and hangings for the anniversary of the parish and then continued on to making a set of blue vestments for advent. The colour was a deep sky blue (colour of hope) with the symbols in silver (4 pointed stars, candles, and a chi-rho on the chasuble).

It made quite a change in the atmosphere of the services of Advent and after seeing what had been done the “traditionalists” quickly came on side.

 

[brigid12]

Our pastor wore blue-blue as were the candles. Our deacon wore red-violet. I think it was on purpose, however out of charity I’ll assume it was due to a shortage of correct vestments and the candles a gift that he didn’t feel right about refusing, rather than disobedience. (Actually, our pastor doesn’t wear blue or any special vestments on any Marian feasts, either - which I would feel more understanding about.)

 

[johnnykins]

Interesting series of posts. As a Lutheran testing the Tiber, I have been in the midst of that vestment discussion. When Blue became an alternative to Violet for Advent, I suggested it to my parish. The violet vestments and frontals were pretty old and very Lenten in theme.

The ladies of the parish had made a new set of green vestments and hangings for the anniversary of the parish and then continued on to making a set of blue vestments for advent. The colour was a deep sky blue (colour of hope) with the symbols in silver (4 pointed stars, candles, and a chi-rho on the chasuble).

It made quite a change in the atmosphere of the services of Advent and after seeing what had been done the “traditionalists” quickly came on side.

Perhaps simply having beautiful vestments - rather that the polyester tablecloths so prevalent in the USA - made the difference? The issue is not that Blue or various colors/hues are somehow fundamentally wrong - it’s that the Church specifically allows only certain colors and the parish should not take upon itself the authority to change that. The Mass does not belong to the parish, or the Bishop - it is the primary ritual of the Church Universal. It belongs to all of us. The local Bishop is called to protect that ritual - not be lord over it. certainly the local parish is not authorized to change such things. That is the nub of the matter.

 

[malphono]

Yes, the “old guys” across the street are wonderful guys, and very informative indeed. I will look into that rescript, if it applies to us as well, that would be amazing. I would truly love to celebrate that Mass in the future.

And pardon my ignorance, who is JH? Is he someone from these forums?

Thanks for your help!

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

JH (I hesitate to spell out his name in respect to privacy) was, last I knew, pastor (not sure if he was prior) at Mt Carmel.

Oh, but it would be such a thrill to again assist at Mass in the true Carmelite usage. It would be remarkable if it could be a Solemn Conventual Mass … well, maybe some day, but for now step-by-step …

I admire your interest in the Carmelite patrimony. First time in years that I’ve encountered an O. Carm who was interested in it at all. The “rule of thumb” for so long was the policy of the late Provincial (formerly the local Prior) which denigrated anything that pre-dated 1965. To this day I cannot understand how he became prior, much less Provincial. It boggles the mind.

The Dominicans have had a good amount of success in reviving their proper usage. I only hope that O. Carm can accomplish the same.

 

[Allen537]

JH (I hesitate to spell out his name in respect to privacy) was, last I knew, pastor (not sure if he was prior) at Mt Carmel.

Oh, but it would be such a thrill to again assist at Mass in the true Carmelite usage. It would be remarkable if it could be a Solemn Conventual Mass … well, maybe some day, but for now step-by-step …

I admire your interest in the Carmelite patrimony. First time in years that I’ve encountered an O. Carm who was interested in it at all. The “rule of thumb” for so long was the policy of the late Provincial (formerly the local Prior) which denigrated anything that pre-dated 1965. To this day I cannot understand how he became prior, much less Provincial. It boggles the mind.

The Dominicans have had a good amount of success in reviving their proper usage. I only hope that O. Carm can accomplish the same.

Oh yes, I know who you are talking about now, I think. I am not sure if he was provincial. I could be wrong. If we are thinking of the same person, he is no longer at Mt. Carmel, and I am not sure where he is now. I was over at the Shrine this afternoon, and went into the library and saw and least 20 of the old Missals on the shelves. I’m going to see if they will let me have one (they have so many and are only collecting dust in there). If you would, would you PM me his name, so we can make sure that we are on the same page?

Yes, I do love the tradition of my order and the church in general. While I would not consider myself a “traditionalist” I do believe that our traditions should at the very least be preserved for future generations of Carmelites and the church in general. And I feel good because there are a few guys like me in formation for the Carmelites, and many of the new men entering are of like-mind.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen