Advent vestments in blue

[malphono]

… If you would, would you PM me his name, so we can make sure that we are on the same page? …

OK … This will be the first time I’ve done a PM before on this forum , so I hope it goes through.

 

[Digitonomy]

While I cannot give you a book source for this method, this was the method presented to us by the Director of the Worship Office in the Archdiocese I studied in. He is a liturgist, trained at Notre Dame.

From the GIRM:

1. As to the color of sacred vestments, the traditional usage is to be retained: namely,

d. Violet or purple is used in Advent and of Lent. It may also be worn in Offices and Masses for the Dead (cf. below).

Looking at the way it is stated, many priests and liturgists I know interpret it to mean violet for Advent, and Purple for Lent.

It isn’t Dogma, but is, in my experience, widely interpreted in this way.In Carmel,Br. Allen

This seems to be the reverse of what I have heard - isn’t violet more of a reddish purple, while purple is bluer?

In any case, I seem to recall someone on these boards citing a document from the Canadian bishops to support this reddish vs bluish dichotomy, but I’ve never seen anything from Rome or from the USCCB.

 

[Stewmont]

Scheduling lay ministers, such as readers, sacristans, lay people serving as emsHC, and musicians would fall under the responsibility of a “liturgist.”

Making sure that the servers are properly trained would be under the responsibilty of a “liturgist.” Ordering appropriate supplies for Mass, the Divine Office, etc. would be the job of a “liturgist.” Assisting the faithful in learning to pray Morning and Evening Prayer (and perhaps presiding over it on occassion) would be the job of a “liturgist.”

Selecting appropriate music would be the job of a “liturgist.”

With the possible exception of the music, none of those responsibilities are the job of a “liturgist.” (Unless you are looking at the pastor as the person who has the ultimate responsibility who is indeed the liturgist.) They are the job of assistants who go by a plethora of names – coordinator, sacristan; trainer; administrator; clerks, etc.

Masses are not totally cut and dried. There is a great deal of licit choices that need to be made. (Let me name a few off the top of my head: sanctuary decorations. Choice of liturgical furnishings (at least in larger parishes), rite of sprinkling or not; incense or not; music; choice of EP; use of bells; formulation of prayer intentions; formal blessings, etc.)

Making those choices (and MANY others) and communicating them to those who make them happen IS the job of the liturgist and yes it’s best if it’s the pastor or at least another cleric.

The title “liturgist” is over used and misused…

 

[Chatter163]

An excellent article from 2000:
canticanova.com/articles/xmas/art1c1.htm

Father Z’s annual rant against Advent blue:
wdtprs.com/blog/2008/11/quaeritur-advent-wreaths-and-my-annual-rant-on-blue-vestments/

For those who missed last year’s rant:
wdtprs.com/blog/2007/12/fr-zs-annual-rant-against-blue-vestments-and-poll/

:tiphat:

 

[Digitonomy]

Side remark about purple beyond vestments: Despite the gripes of some about the color of decorations in church, I have seen no church document that requires or even encourages decorations in the official liturgical colors of the season.

There is also probably some wiggle room in the colors used for Advent wreaths (the comments on Chatter123’s second link indicate most Europeans use red candles), but church document wonk John Lilburne pointed out a couple years ago that the colors are mentioned in the Book of Blessings (for the US):

“1510 Customarily the Advent Wreath is constructed of a circle of evergreen branches into which are inserted four candles. According to tradition, three of the candles are violet and the fourth is rose. However, four violet or white candles may also be used.”

As for bluish purple, I still find nowhere that the Church “recommends” that hue. I searched the CCCB and found what I had recalled about bluish and reddish purple vestments…both documents are from 2006. There was no equivalent discussion of purple at the USCCB site, based on a word search.

Celebrating the Season of Advent

Violet vestments. Rather than penance, the use of violet in Advent reflects longing and anticipation. Some parishes use a blue-toned purple (the royal purple) to express the season. Blue vestments are not used in Canada. Rose vestments may be used on the third (Gaudete) Sunday to signal the mid-point of the season.

Celebrating the Season of Lent

Violet vestments. The use of purple vestments indicates the time of penance. Sometimes the Lenten vestments use a red hued purple (called “Roman” purple) that anticipates the red vestments of Palm Sunday and Good Friday.

I would tend to say that even in Canada, one could view the documents as more descriptive than prescriptive. In the US, they of course have no force.

 

[MusicMan]

Masses are not totally cut and dried.

No, the ritual books make the Mass quite cut and dried.

There is a great deal of licit choices that need to be made. (Let me name a few off the top of my head: sanctuary decorations.

Good job for the Parish Council or Liturgy Committee

Choice of liturgical furnishings (at least in larger parishes),

Like what? Glass versus metal chalices? The priest-celebrant is more than capable of making his own choice here.

rite of sprinkling or not;

Again, should be left to the priest-celebrant

incense or not;

Priest-celebrant

music;

You’ve got me here.

choice of EP;

Absolutely reserved to the priest-celebrant and him alone.

use of bells;

Priest-celebrant

formulation of prayer intentions;

The ritual books provide the formulation.

formal blessings

Priest-celebrant

Making those choices (and MANY others) and communicating them to those who make them happen IS the job of the liturgist and yes it’s best if it’s the pastor or at least another cleric.

Making those choices should be reserved to the priest-celebrant of the Mass, and communication of those choices could be the job of a liturgist, or of the celebrant himself.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m certainly not saying you are wrong, however, “liturgists” have often been wrong, deceptive and out of control. Before any such assertion is made as to the difference in hues being “recommended” - some official publication to that effect really should be presented. Otherwise a statement that “a liturgist I knew” or some such qualifier really should be applied.

I really don’t see how your comment on the phrasing gets any traction absent an agenda. Unfortunately, I’ve know far too many liturgists with an agenda that disregards both tradition and the rubrics. I note that “traditional usage” has no claim to the difference - that I am aware of (note qualifier). If there is something in tradition older than 40 years, I would love to see a cite.

Johnny,

The liturgical requirement of the Church state that during Advent, violet vestments are worn.

So long as the priest is wearing violet, he’s satisfying the GIRM both in letter and in spirit, regardless of what shade of violet that might be (within reasonable limits of course).

The recommendation for the “more blue” violet in Advent and the more “red” is actually out there somewhere. I know I read it in some official document, but I’m unable to locate it. In any case, it is merely a “recommendation” and the priest is free to follow it or not, so in the end, it makes little difference.

But still, keep in mind, that as long as it is a violet vestment, the priest is obeying the norms. For example, I have a purple-with-gold-trim, and a purple-with-silver-trim. I have a personal custom as to which one I wear on any given day. Either is within the norms. Same applies to the different “shades” of violet (which we in the US call “purple” right or wrong).

Even if it turns out that the “recommendation” is a work of complete fiction, it doesn’t matter because either shade of violet is licit, and therefore a priest who decides to follow that fictitious recommendation is still acting completely within the norms.

 

[johnnykins]

Johnny,

The liturgical requirement of the Church state that during Advent, violet vestments are worn.

So long as the priest is wearing violet, he’s satisfying the GIRM both in letter and in spirit, regardless of what shade of violet that might be (within reasonable limits of course).

The recommendation for the “more blue” violet in Advent and the more “red” is actually out there somewhere. I know I read it in some official document, but I’m unable to locate it. In any case, it is merely a “recommendation” and the priest is free to follow it or not, so in the end, it makes little difference.

But still, keep in mind, that as long as it is a violet vestment, the priest is obeying the norms. For example, I have a purple-with-gold-trim, and a purple-with-silver-trim. I have a personal custom as to which one I wear on any given day. Either is within the norms. Same applies to the different “shades” of violet (which we in the US call “purple” right or wrong).

Even if it turns out that the “recommendation” is a work of complete fiction, it doesn’t matter because either shade of violet is licit, and therefore a priest who decides to follow that fictitious recommendation is still acting completely within the norms.

Fr I quite agree there is no distinction in any directive I’m aware of between different shades of violet. Any shade of violet is licit. What I object to is not the use of different shades - it’s the implication that there is some rule, recommendation or tradition of using different shades that simply isn’t there - except in the minds of some “liturgists” who, in my experience, have an agenda. And that agenda is to commandeer the Mass. It’s all part and parcel of the Our Father hand holding, ad hoc changes in the Mass texts, ignore the rubrics, create new postures, dance down the aisle mindset.

If a Church has different color vestments in shades of violet - fine. Just don’t create the impression that the Church recommends it - or that it’s traditional. Neither is the case.

 

[FrDavid96]

I wonder if anyone out there with a copy of the Ordo could please lookup vestment colors in the front pages to see if there’s a suggestion for the different shades of violet in Lent vs Advent.

**

 

[Allen537]

I wonder if anyone out there with a copy of the Ordo could please lookup vestment colors in the front pages to see if there’s a suggestion for the different shades of violet in Lent vs Advent.

**

My Carmelite Ordo does not make make any distinction between the two. It actually doesn’t even say purple. Just violet for both seasons.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[jfallaw]

How many (I’m curious) of your pastors dressed in blue vestments today? Also, what has Rome said about that?

Our parish uses Purple, and an insert in the Good News! today even says:

“The liturgical color used in the Latin Church during Advent and Easter is purple, a sign of penance. In some places some may see blue used, which is done without the Church’s approval.”

 

[FrDavid96]

Our parish uses Purple, and an insert in the Good News! today even says:

“The liturgical color used in the Latin Church during Advent and Easter is purple, a sign of penance. In some places some may see blue used, which is done without the Church’s approval.”

Wow. I almost missed the word “without.” Correct, the Church has not approved it, and it is not a licit liturgical color in the US. Thanks to the article for pointing that out, and thanks to you for sharing it with us.

 

[jfallaw]

Wow. I almost missed the word “without.” Correct, the Church has not approved it, and it is not a licit liturgical color in the US. Thanks to the article for pointing that out, and thanks to you for sharing it with us.

LOL! Thanks. The insert, btw, was an excerpt from Liguori Publications’ Advent- A Quality Storecupboard, The Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer.

 

[drforjc]

I wonder if anyone out there with a copy of the Ordo could please lookup vestment colors in the front pages to see if there’s a suggestion for the different shades of violet in Lent vs Advent.

**

I do recall seeing something, but my (admittedly poor) recollection is that it was offered as an option, not a suggestion, to the effect that if one wished to differentiate between Advent and Lent, he could do so by choosing a more bluish shade of violet for Advent.
I don’t recall it saying we necessarily should do it, though. Like you, I can’t remember where I saw it. Was it a dubium submitted to the CDW?

 

[johnnykins]

I do recall seeing something, but my (admittedly poor) recollection is that it was offered as an option, not a suggestion, to the effect that if one wished to differentiate between Advent and Lent, he could do so by choosing a more bluish shade of violet for Advent.
I don’t recall it saying we necessarily should do it, though. Like you, I can’t remember where I saw it. Was it a dubium submitted to the CDW?

Of course, one could do it with any shade of violet for Advent, couldn’t one.

Did you notice the Cope worn by the Pope for Advent vespers last week - a very reddish light violet. So much for Bluish violet being recommended in any official context, methinks.

 

[FrDavid96]

Of course, one could do it with any shade of violet for Advent, couldn’t one.

Did you notice the Cope worn by the Pope for Advent vespers last week - a very reddish light violet. So much for Bluish violet being recommended in any official context, methinks.

Johnny,
Let’s say that a priest says to himself the following: I read somewhere that bluish violet is appropriate for Advent and reddish violet is appropriate for Lent. I have both colors in the closet. Given that Advent is less “severely” penitential than Lent, I think I’ll do that. I know I don’t have to. I know that as long as I wear violet, I’m keeping within both the letter and the spirit of the norms.

What I don’t understand is this: why do you have such an aversion to that? Why would this bother you? I’m not being sarcastic, I just don’t understand it and I’m asking you to explain it to me.

Today, I wore a white vestment with a blue cross and trim for the Immaculate Conception. I know full well that there is no requirement for blue trim on Marian days. Yet, it simply makes sense to me that if I can choose between white-with-blue and white-with-red or white-with-green, the blue trim makes more sense. Was I wrong in doing that because there’s no specific document that says Immaculate Conception vestments must have a blue cross, but instead this is just a recommendation or suggestion from people “in the know”? I honestly don’t understand it.

 

[Corki]

How many (I’m curious) of your pastors dressed in blue vestments today?

My own pastor has a lovely set of purple vestments (same ones for Lent and Advent) and I can’t imagine him wearing blue.

But we were traveling this weekend and went to Church in another city. The priest wore vestments in a color I have never seen at Mass. They were kind of a teal or peacock blue but had wide purple stripes on either side. The blue wasn’t at all what you think of as “Marian” blue. Odd.

 

[johnnykins]

Johnny,
Let’s say that a priest says to himself the following: I read somewhere that bluish violet is appropriate for Advent and reddish violet is appropriate for Lent. I have both colors in the closet. Given that Advent is less “severely” penitential than Lent, I think I’ll do that. I know I don’t have to. I know that as long as I wear violet, I’m keeping within both the letter and the spirit of the norms.

What I don’t understand is this: why do you have such an aversion to that? Why would this bother you? I’m not being sarcastic, I just don’t understand it and I’m asking you to explain it to me.

Today, I wore a white vestment with a blue cross and trim for the Immaculate Conception. I know full well that there is no requirement for blue trim on Marian days. Yet, it simply makes sense to me that if I can choose between white-with-blue and white-with-red or white-with-green, the blue trim makes more sense. Was I wrong in doing that because there’s no specific document that says Immaculate Conception vestments must have a blue cross, but instead this is just a recommendation or suggestion from people “in the know”? I honestly don’t understand it.

As I quite clearly and openly stated above, any shade of violet is licit. My complaint is the suggestion that there is some suggestion, recommendation or tradition on using one or the other. There quite simply is none. You put your finger on it above with your reference to those “in the know.” Far too often those “in the know” are NOT “in the know” at all, but have aggregated unto themselves the authority to declare some passing fad to be the “norm” or “preferred” or such. Liturgical dance began with those “in the know” pushing it in the 70’s. The congregation assuming the orans position for the Our Father - or holding hands - began by those “in the know.” Any number of other issues - say changing the texts and rubrics of the Mass - have been pushed by those “in the know.”

Frankly, I don’t trust those “in the know” because from my experience they aren’t “in the know” and too often have a pernicious agenda.

 

[drforjc]

Doing some googling about this topic, I found that the source for this seems to have originated in a blurb found in this Ordo ( and I quote from a forum comment on MusicaSacra):

"Paulist Press Ordo 2009
The Order of Prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours and Celebration of the Eucharist 200Paulist Press Ordo 2009

Here is bullet paragraph six:

The official color for the season of Advent is violet. In order to distinguish between this season and the specifically penitential season of Lent, the bluer hues of violet may be used during Advent. Light blue vestments, however, are not authorized for use in the United States.
There is NO citation provided to support this statement.
So, this is probably where everyone is getting this idea,
and why nobody can point to an official document."

 

[RLT]

This seems to be the reverse of what I have heard - isn’t violet more of a reddish purple, while purple is bluer?

In the light spectrum violet is a shorter wavelength of blue were as purple is the mixture of red and blue.

In traditional art color theory violet is smack dab in between red and blue with it’s variations called red-violet and blue-violet. I believe this is where the liturgist get their idea of what violet is.

In other color theories violet is a hue among others like pink, rose, magenta(aka fuchsia) and purple.You would have to look at a spectrum of color wheel to see which is closest to blue.

If you really want to know go to the source. Many colors get their names from nature. Violet is named for the flower as well as fuchsia.

Of course today there are different color schemes(RYB, RGB, CYMK etc.) so the diffrence between violet and purple depends on which application us used.