Adventist Dedication

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bengal_fan:
i would say that the 75% was right. look at every church council there has ever been. name one thing that, when the council voted or decided on, they were wrong. there has not been one. now, in a secular culture, the majority is not always right. but we aren’t dealing with a secular culture are we? we are dealing with an entity (the church) which is guided by the hand of God (the Holy Spirit) and has been promised to be free from error concerning faith and morals. of course i am only speaking of the catholic church in this sense, but even then, we should still look to see what the protestants believe and the majority of them practice infant baptism. the idea of adult only baptism is a new idea (last few hundred years) and is direct contrast with the entire history of
Christianity and the old testament forerunner of baptism which is circumcision. the point is, in the case of the church, the majority is right when it is agreed upon by the pope and infant baptism is overwhelmingly agreed upon in most Christian circles and therefore the one’s that don’t practice it are outside the norm and outside of scripture and tradition.

and, btw, there is an indication of how many “wise men” there were. 3 gifts were given. if there were more than three, there would have been more than 3 gifts as it would have been an insult to show up empty handed. that is a very big indication of how many there were and tradition follows that indication.
The three gifts are an indication, but people will use that indication to say that it is true, when in fact, we don’t know how many. The point is, just because “a” majority of people believe something doesn’t mean they are correct. It means they may lack understanding, whether they are secular or religious.
 
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ahimsaman72:
The three gifts are an indication, but people will use that indication to say that it is true, when in fact, we don’t know how many. The point is, just because “a” majority of people believe something doesn’t mean they are correct. It means they may lack understanding, whether they are secular or religious.
they don’t lack understanding if it is true. tradition has always told us that there were 3. the scriptures (in the number of gifts) indicates this is true, therefore that is what is believed. yes, there is a possibility that it is not true just as it is a possibility that Jesus wasn’t God, but the majority says both are true and therefore, since the Holy Spirit guides the church into all truth (which Jesus promised) it is true. no lack of understanding…in fact they understand the promise of Jesus quite well.
 
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bengal_fan:
they don’t lack understanding if it is true. tradition has always told us that there were 3. the scriptures (in the number of gifts) indicates this is true, therefore that is what is believed. yes, there is a possibility that it is not true just as it is a possibility that Jesus wasn’t God, but the majority says both are true and therefore, since the Holy Spirit guides the church into all truth (which Jesus promised) it is true. no lack of understanding…in fact they understand the promise of Jesus quite well.
You mean to tell me that the Catholic Church has said there are 3? Infallibly - 3? Bolsters my claim that the church invents things. :rolleyes:
 

but it seems that in Christianity…the majority has been right everytime (when you take all of Christendom).​

Really? The majority was right about slavery being a perfectly acceptable practice? Or that women should NOT have the right to vote?
 

in a sense, they are playing baptism but without the water or the grace.​

Were Jesus’s parents “playing” when they dedicated Him at the temple?
I am one of those offensive types who is waiting until my children are of age to be baptised. I did not dedicate my children as I was a non Christian when my children were born.
My son ( age 10) was recently baptized and it was nice that he could appreciate his baptism.
 
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Lilyofthevalley:

but it seems that in Christianity…the majority has been right everytime (when you take all of Christendom).​

Really? The majority was right about slavery being a perfectly acceptable practice? Or that women should NOT have the right to vote?
:clapping: 👍

Great examples!!!
 
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Lilyofthevalley:

in a sense, they are playing baptism but without the water or the grace.​

Were Jesus’s parents “playing” when they dedicated Him at the temple?
I am one of those offensive types who is waiting until my children are of age to be baptised. I did not dedicate my children as I was a non Christian when my children were born.
My son ( age 10) was recently baptized and it was nice that he could appreciate his baptism.
I certainly wasn’t playing when I dedicated all three of my girls to God. Also, remember Hannah and Samuel! Hannah was willing to give Samuel to the Lord. In the Baptist faith, we do the same thing - we accept our responsibility to raise them Christian and to be used however God pleases. We give them to Him.

Right on Lilly!!!
 
It was a great analogy.
It’s not a good analogy for a Catholic, as marriage is also a Holy Sacrament which signifies and conveys the grace which is actually bestowed ex opere operato, just as with baptism and all the Holy Sacraments.

Although, I do agree with you that a dedication of a child to God is spiritual, as grace can be bestowed by God *ex opere operantis *according to Catholic theology.

The Holy Sacraments are a special way Catholics pray together. In infant baptism, we pray that God sanctify the child. We believe that by this prayer, God does bestow grace upon an infant during baptism, making him holy, equipping him with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It’s simply about faith in prayer. And we also think that protestants who deny their child this prayer until later, adhere to a tradition of men that makes no theological sense.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
It’s not a good analogy for a Catholic, as marriage is also a Holy Sacrament which signifies and conveys the grace which is actually bestowed ex opere operato, just as with baptism and all the Holy Sacraments.

Although, I do agree with you that a dedication of a child to God is spiritual, as grace can be bestowed by God *ex opere operantis *according to Catholic theology.

The Holy Sacraments are a special way Catholics pray together. In infant baptism, we pray that God sanctify the child. We believe that by this prayer, God does bestow grace upon an infant during baptism, making him holy, equipping him with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It’s simply about faith in prayer. And we also think that protestants who deny their child this prayer until later, adhere to a tradition of men that makes no theological sense.
We also believe that by our prayer and confession of intentions that God also bestows grace to the child and to the parents as well.

We also believe that anyone who baptizes a baby who has no knowledge of Christ (yet) follows a tradition of man. There’s no Scriptural evidence for infant baptism. I have a collection of verses on baptism in the NT and it always reflects adults. There are phrases that speak of “him and his whole household”. But, you would have to admit that is not clear evidence of infants being baptized. I am going to post those verses on my website.

Let me be clear, though. There’s nothing wrong if you want to baptize your infant. Even if it is a traditon of men, I don’t consider it wrong or evil - just pointless.

I understand that you believe (I’m guessing based on Catholic doctrine) that the original sin is washed away at baptism and that the infant then begins their life in Christ. I would challenge that children and those who are unable to “accept Christ” and confess Him (Rom 10:9-10) are “clothed” with Christ at birth and that similarly - those mentally retarded or with mental problems are “covered” with Christ. Of course, this goes into other issues and beyond the scope of this thread, but just wanted to make my thoughts clear on that.
 
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Exporter:
I wish you would use clear forthright English!!
Uhm, now that would solve a lot of problems but would life be as interesting?:confused:

What would the world be like if everyone agreed on theology as per the Gospel of Christ?

Catholic of course!😃

It is through vague opinions and self-miss-interpretation that has led to the thousands upon thousands of Christian sects outside of His Church. Satan will never allow his minions or those who are influenced by him to use clear English.

Question, would false teachers like Luther, Calvin, Smyth, Zwingli, Smith, Eddy, White, etc. be considered influenced by Satan or mearly misguided souls?:hmmm: I suppose that is good for another thread. It is a question and not meant to be an insult as there have been one or two Catholics with misguided thoughts too I am sure, I just can’t recall any now. (Theologians that is, not just us here on this forum talking with each other in a freindly way).
 
One should not wait to have ones children baptized. Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto me and do not hinder them”. In Acts whole families were baptized. Catholic parents have the obligation to baptize their children and raise them in the faith. SDA’s unfortunately follow a man made tradition as we have no mention in Acts of “dedication” ceremonies.
 
We also believe that by our prayer and confession of intentions that God also bestows grace to the child and to the parents as well.
If you believe that in response to your infant blessing that God does actually convey sanctifying grace, than this is simply nothing more an untraditional form of baptism, excepting that you are not adhering to the correct matter and form. What infant baptism intends is that God sanctify the child. It is that sanctification that restores original justice, regenerates, thereby remitting original sin. When protestants rail against our traditional, sacramental prayer, but at the same time substitute their own untraditional version, it seems rather absurd to us.
We also believe that anyone who baptizes a baby who has no knowledge of Christ (yet) follows a tradition of man.
We disagree, because in Scripture, whole households were baptized. There are examples of God healing and forgiving some for the faith of others (e.g. paralytic healed/forgiven due to the faith of his friends). Comparatively, in Catholicism, whole households are still baptized, as they were in apostolic times. Yet, ironically, the first baptist parish began by John Smyth (ca. 1609) baptizing himself (where’s that in scripture?), then baptizing the others. And get this … he did this by pouring!! (eeeek!). Thus is the start of the so-called Scriptural practice of the Baptists.

Baptists have no basis for rejecting the validity of infant baptism as Scriptural. Nowhere is there an example in Scripture of an entire household being baptized, but withholding baptism of their child until they can “choose Christ” for themselves. This is lacking in Scripture as well as Christian history. You’ve simply created your own unscriptural practice based upon a flawed understanding of Scripture and history.

The oldest express evidence in history suggest that infants were baptized from the very start of Christianity, just as Jews baptized whole convert households, including the infant converts. This was the Jewish practice prior to the advent of Christianity, as it remains Jewish practice today.

Whole households were baptized, and there was no provision for excluding infants until they made a “choice for Christ” at some later “age of reason.” Likewise, there was no practice of excluding infants from Jewish baptism (and circumcision for males) until they made their own choice at a later age. Nothing in history suggest this was EVER the orthodox practice of Judaism or Christianity in the early centuries. Without express evidene to the contrary, it’s reasonable to presume baptism of Christianity continued the infant baptism of Judaism. So, if I’m to reasonably judge which of the two traditions is the novel tradition and which is apostolic, it is the anabaptist tradition which seems the one invented much later in history based upon a re-interpretation of what Christianity had always taught.

As I stated earlier, your prayers regarding your infant may very well be answered in your infant blessings. Yet, we believe they are answered ex opere operantis (by virture of the piety of the person praying). Whereas, in baptism, we believe the piety of the minister or recipient is irrelevant to receipt of santification for the child. The grace is by virture of the act of baptism (ex opere operato). There’s no doubt as to its effectiveness, even if this sacrament is administered by heretics, schismatics, or infidels. In this way, we are more secure in our “born again-ness” than the uncertainty I’ve seen in Baptists, who often feel compelled to re-baptize again and again, as if the first did not stick.
 
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HistoryTeacher:
I have 2nd cousin who was “dedicated” at her 7th Adventist Church awhile back. I didn’t attend cause Adventists are kinda. . .well. . .I just wasn’t comfortable(although my cousin did bring his family to my son’s catholic baptism). Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew exactly what this “dedication” was all about. I don’t think they do infant baptism so is this just a “bring them into the church community” ceremony because they want something like we have for our children but they can’t baptize?

Brandon

Hi Brandon…When a child is “dedicated” he is brought to the front of the church and presented to the community. along with his parents. The child and his family are then prayed over…It is a way of welcoming the little one into the church community, but is in no way a baptism.

**I have three grandsons who have been “decicated”, and I went to all three ceremonies. One grandson was baptized, before his parents began to attend an evangelical church. I know my daughter wishes the other two boys were also baptized. I think my son is comfortable with his boy’s not being baptized, though. **

…But, I do have to admit that I wished with all my heart that we were attending baptisms when Alex, Daniel and Ryan were dedicated…I remember how proud we were to have Michael baptized five years ago…I had some water from the River Jordan to add to the baptism water.

**It is not “wrong” to attend a dedication, so you needn’t worry about that. **

Sandy…a Catholic Heart
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Baptists have no basis for rejecting the validity of infant baptism as Scriptural. Nowhere is there an example in Scripture of an entire household being baptized, but withholding baptism of their child until they can “choose Christ” for themselves. This is lacking in Scripture as well as Christian history. You’ve simply created your own unscriptural practice based upon a flawed understanding of Scripture and history.

The oldest express evidence in history suggest that infants were baptized from the very start of Christianity, just as Jews baptized whole convert households, including the infant converts. This was the Jewish practice prior to the advent of Christianity, as it remains Jewish practice today.

Whole households were baptized, and there was no provision for excluding infants until they made a “choice for Christ” at some later “age of reason.” Likewise, there was no practice of excluding infants from Jewish baptism (and circumcision for males) until they made their own choice at a later age. Nothing in history suggest this was EVER the orthodox practice of Judaism or Christianity in the early centuries. Without express evidene to the contrary, it’s reasonable to presume baptism of Christianity continued the infant baptism of Judaism. So, if I’m to reasonably judge which of the two traditions is the novel tradition and which is apostolic, it is the anabaptist tradition which seems the one invented much later in history based upon a re-interpretation of what Christianity had always taught.
Some parts deleted due to space -

Your post here was very thoughtful and expressed well.

It is true that there are only a few groups now who do not practice infant baptism. Most of the reformed mainliners obviously do.

Infant baptism is not clear in Scriptures as I looked up every instance of baptism in the NT. The NT example is that one confess, repent and then be baptized. Those who came to John the Baptist were adults (very clear) who confessed their sins, repented and were then baptized. The same holds true throughout the rest of the NT.

There are some instances where “he and his household” were baptized, I freely admit. Just who constituted those in the house is unknown. I did not realize the Jewish practice continuation. It seems odd to me, because there seems to be the attitude that since the Church was instituted, the Jewish traditions and thoughts on canon of Scripture (for example) are discarded.

I’m not so dead set against this. I don’t believe there’s any scriptural warrant, but would concede that there’s nothing “wrong” with baptizing children. Since I believe the Scriptures to be almost completely silent on the issue I do not condemn it. I rather appreciate the Anglican view of infant baptism. Here it is from the 39 articles of faith of the Episcopal Church, USA:

*"Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or New-Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed; Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. *

The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ."

mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/39articles.html

Of course, the Anabaptists went further in discarding the baptism of children altogether, whereas the Episcopal Church retained it.

So, of course there’s no agreement between Baptists and Episcopalians on this issue, but I dare say the Episcopalian view is quite different from the Roman Catholic view.

Peace…
 
there seems to be the attitude that since the Church was instituted, the Jewish traditions and thoughts on canon of Scripture (for example) are discarded.
Some were retained, but transformed with the advent of Christianity (eg., passover became Easter). I don’t believe that the NT Christians who came from Judaism believed they were changing religions, but continuing the true path of the hoped for Jewish Messiah.

If you study Jewish baptismal practices, you find that they ritually cleansed the convert Gentiles families, infants as well as adults. Then they circumcised the males. The ritual cleansing was to wash the iniquities from the inherently sinful Gentiles. Given this background, St. John the Baptist’s baptism is illuminated further. Prior to St. John’s ministry, Jews believed they didn’t necessarily need baptism, as only Gentiles needed washing of their inherent iniquities. However, St. John’s baptism said something profound to the Jewish community … even Jews were sinners and needed cleansing of their iniquities, thus preparing the way for Christian baptism.
 
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ahimsaman72:
. . . I rather appreciate the Anglican view of infant baptism. Here it is from the 39 articles of faith of the Episcopal Church, USA:

"Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or New-Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed; Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God.

The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ."

. . . I dare say the Episcopalian view is quite different from the Roman Catholic view.

Peace…
Actually the beliefs are virtually identical. The Episcopal Church has traditionally viewed Baptism as effective and and not just signatory. You need to take the Catechism into consideration as well as the Thirty-nine Articles:

Q. What is your name?
A. N. or N. N.
Q. Who gave you this Name?
A. My Sponsors in Baptism; wherein I was made a member of Christ, the child of God, and an inheritor of the Kingdom of Heaven. (Emphasis added)

The CCC says:
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. . . .
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.
The Catholic Church accepts the Baptism of the Episcopal Church.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
With regard to baptism? In what way?

It seems from the way it is written that they recognize that the baptism is not salvific, but is a covenant which presumes later conversion on behalf of the child based on upbringing in Christian faith by Christian parents.

Maybe I read it wrong - that’s what I understood from what I read.

I know, I know (interpretation, interpretation, interpretation) 🙂

Peace…
 
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mercygate:
Actually the beliefs are virtually identical. The Episcopal Church has traditionally viewed Baptism as effective and and not just signatory. You need to take the Catechism into consideration as well as the Thirty-nine Articles:

Q. What is your name?
A. N. or N. N.
Q. Who gave you this Name?
A. My Sponsors in Baptism; wherein I was made a member of Christ, the child of God, and an inheritor of the Kingdom of Heaven. (Emphasis added)

The CCC says:

The Catholic Church accepts the Baptism of the Episcopal Church.
Yes, the Catholic Church accepts it as long as it is based on the trinitarian formula. She would accept my baptism also, for example, because I was baptized (fully immersed) in the trinitarian formula.

It seems as if they are more ambigous and liberal with their interpretation of the act of baptism compared to the Catholic Church.
 
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Lilyofthevalley:

but it seems that in Christianity…the majority has been right everytime (when you take all of Christendom).​

Really? The majority was right about slavery being a perfectly acceptable practice? Or that women should NOT have the right to vote?
Interesting Quotes, but not very clear, for lack of a better word.
Could you tell me how many democracies there were before the US came about? I don’t think you are going to find any! It took 400 years for the Hebrew slaves to be freed by God, men and women! The Christians were persecuted by the Romans for 400 years, before they were allowed to live freely, somewhat. But yet a democracy shows up out of nowhere and a mere 150 years after the infancy of this “New” form of goverment women are allowed to vote, seems too slow? Maybe it’s me!

As for slavery, the majority was the Catholic Church for 1500 years, and still is today and the Church has always stood against it Link

Joao
 
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