Advice for friend (intimate question)

[moon1234]

First of all, this is not true. The devout Catholic man who understands and obeys the Church’s views on sexuality will absolutely see porn as cheating. My husband does. Jesus said if a man looks at a woman lustfully, he has committed adultery with her in his heart. He didn’t say anything about men not being able to grasp this.

Saying that something “will not compute in a man’s brain” is insulting. Men are not animals. They are human beings with the capacity to understand God’s gift of sexuality and to make moral decisions.

It doesn’t matter why he is doing it, it’s still cheating. Besides, if all he was doing was trying to alleviate some sexual tension, he could very well masturbate WITHOUT the naked women on the screen. But he doesn’t.

Yes, this man needs to look outside himself and receive some help from a counselor/priest to overcome this addiction. He needs to be made aware of how damaging and disrespectful his actions are.

I agree that we must try to sacrifice for one another even if we don’t particularly feel like having sex. But saying that she needs to have sex with him so that he’ll just do it with her instead of with porn, IS abusive. He needs to understand WHY what he is doing is wrong, and he needs to develop a better understanding of sexuality before he can ever TRULY “make love” to his wife. Otherwise he’ll just be using her body to masturbate into.

And if she reveals this to her husband instead of responding with love and affection, it will further drive him away. The OP already stated that the husband is comfortable with his sin. HE KNOWS it is disordered. He doesn’t care. He is not your good Catholic husband who already knows and accepts this.

Sometimes charity on the part of the person who is hurt can affect change in ways that hostility can not.

Sex for MOST men (not all) is a very primal/carnal thing. It is not usually wrapped up in emotion in order for the physical act to happen. MEN get emotionally damaged when they feel unloved or rejected by those they WANT to have sex with. Remember the porn NEVER says no. It always says yes.

Should she have to compete with the porn, no of course not. I am sorry if my suggestion was offensive, I offered it because I KNOW that is has worked in the past.

 

[Debora123]

Emotionally for a woman it probably does feel like cheating, but to a man it is not seen that way.

This isn’t a woman’s view point. This is the CATHOLIC view point, and not to mention Jesus himself was very clear that “looking at a woman lustfully is committing adultery with her in his heart.” Adultery = cheating.

Please read Theology of the Body for a correct understanding of the Church’s views regarding sexuality. And please refrain from further insulting the female gender by making this out to be an issue of “women’s feelings.”

 

[moon1234]

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Now you are down to making condescending remarks. And frankly – the more you say – the more it comes clear – that it is concupiscence talking – when the “sacrifice” is expected to be one sided – to “service” the husbands carnal needs.

I think what you mistook is that I recommended that it be offered for a short time. It is a simple way to try and break a habit. St. Paul cautioned that married people should not put off sex for an extended period of time less they be tempted to sin. That period of time for him may be much shorter than for her. St. Paul recognized this and wrote it down for everyone to see. It obviously has been a problem for a VERY long time.

It is amazing that a suggestion that one spouse fulfill the marriage vow (sacrifice if you will) to help quiet the others sexual urges should be met with such hostility.

 

[Debora123]

And if she reveals this to her husband instead of responding with love and affection, it will further drive him away. The OP already stated that the husband is comfortable with his sin. HE KNOWS it is disordered. He doesn’t care. He is not your good Catholic husband who already knows and accepts this.

Sometimes charity on the part of the person who is hurt can affect change in ways that hostility can not.

Well that’s fine. I am totally for approaching this in a loving, and charitable manner. However you were making some very false claims regarding the nature of pornography and men’s ability to understand it.

 

[moon1234]

This isn’t a woman’s view point. This is the CATHOLIC view point, and not to mention Jesus himself was very clear that “looking at a woman lustfully is committing adultery with her in his heart.” Adultery = cheating.

Please read Theology of the Body for a correct understanding of the Church’s views regarding sexuality. And please refrain from further insulting the female gender by making this out to be an issue of “women’s feelings.”

I am sorry if what I suggested offended you Debora123. I simply tried to offer an alternative that I KNOW has worked in the past. The OP seems to have already tried to appeal to him and he gave her one option. He is most likely not going to be swayed by arguments to read Theology of the Body, etc. I know what Church teaching is on the subject. I know how a spouse should be treated, etc. None of that seems to be working. So I offered an alternative viewpoint and I explained the reasons why.

Offering the marital duty to end ones sin is no crime and would be a good measure of self giving. It may be revolting, etc. but if it ends his addiction to porn and masturbation, then that IS a positive outcome is it not? He would no longer be cheating with pictures or videos. Yet this very option, which the husband himself suggested, is denied. It will only reaffirm to him that the porn says yes and his wife says no.

If she turned the tables on him and said, ok, I will do what you ask, but you can not have any porn or masturbate any more. Explain why this is BAD? His motives are disordered, but the outcome is positive.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think what you mistook is that I recommended that it be offered for a short time. It is a simple way to try and break a habit. St. Paul cautioned that married people should not put off sex for an extended period of time less they be tempted to sin. That period of time for him may be much shorter than for her. St. Paul recognized this and wrote it down for everyone to see. It obviously has been a problem for a VERY long time.

It is amazing that a suggestion that one spouse fulfill the marriage vow (sacrifice if you will) to help quiet the others sexual urges should be met with such hostility.

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When one spouse is expected to “submit” to the beck and call of the other – to “service” carnal needs – the one doing the “beck and call” – is driven by concupiscence.

 

[moon1234]

Well that’s fine. I am totally for approaching this in a loving, and charitable manner. However you were making some very false claims regarding the nature of pornography and men’s ability to understand it.

Pornography is an addiction just like alcohol, drugs, or any other vice. The person who is addicted will usually not be able to break the addiction on their own. Alcoholics rarely if ever check themselves into rehab. They usually get very sick and alienate everyone around them to the point where they are alone. This only re-enforces the habit. It is not usually until someone steps in and attempts to move the person away from the alcohol and into a program that change happens.

Once a person is free from the addiction, THEN they begin to see how their addiction was harming those around them. It is rare for that realization to occur while the person is addicted. The OP said that this habit has been going on for decades. This is not something that is going to stop without serious intervention. He has received an emotional release from doing this for too long. It has become like a smoke who need to the next cigarette to feel balanced. They KNOW the smoking will probably kill them or make their loved ones sick, but they just can’t seem to stop. The same for people who drink.

If offering the marital duty will end this addiction for him, as he said it would, then would it not seem good to at least TRY? Once the addiction is broken, it will be MUCH easier to speak to him about his addiction hurt his marriage.

 

[Debora123]

If she turned the tables on him and said, ok, I will do what you ask, but you can not have any porn or masturbate any more. Explain why this is BAD? His motives are disordered, but the outcome is positive.

Because there is no unity in having sex with your spouse every night for the mere purpose of him not cheating on you.

Of course I agree that coming to a compromise on sex (the wife having sex more often) can help with temptation issues.

But the husband needs to understand WHY pornography is wrong, and needs to develop a better understanding of sexuality.

It can’t be a scenario of “have sex with me every night, otherwise I will look at and masturbate to other naked women.” That is abusive.

 

[moon1234]

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When one spouse is expected to “submit” to the beck and call of the other – to “service” carnal needs – the one doing the “beck and call” – is driven by concupiscence.

Yes, yes. This is understood. What are her other options? Speaking to him is not working, she seems to have tried that already? Is it better for her to allow him to continue, since he stated he is not going to stop unless she has sex with him? Does she avoid him all together? This will most likely not work. Divorce is out of the question.

God created carnal needs. They can NOT be bad. Each spouse should be expected to offer the marital duty when requested so long as it does not affect the health of the other. It is rare that two spouses will have the SAME level of sexual drive. It is USUALLY the male that has a higher sex drive, but not always.

Submitting to the other spouse and offering of yourself should never be viewed as dirty or wrong. When it is viewed that way, it deprives the other spouse of the love and intimacy that is supposed to be part of marriage.

 

[moon1234]

Because there is no unity in having sex with your spouse every night for the mere purpose of him not cheating on you.

Of course I agree that coming to a compromise on sex (the wife having sex more often) can help with temptation issues.

But the husband needs to understand WHY pornography is wrong, and needs to develop a better understanding of sexuality.

It can’t be a scenario of “have sex with me every night, otherwise I will look at and masturbate to other naked women.” That is abusive.

I am not arguing that point. I agree it is abusive, but he will most likely NOT recognize this until his addiction is broken. It is why I suggested that she set parameters around submitting to him. Set a time limit, I simply suggested two weeks. If he can go two weeks with no porn and no masturbation, then they will talk about the frequency of sex. MOST addictions take a while to break. If they can be broken the person who was addicted can be made to see how they were acting and change can be affected.

It would be similar to a person who is addicted to alcohol asking their spouse to take them to AA everyday to get them to stop. If the spouse recoiled and said “Your drinking is harming our family. It is destroying our relationship and is not with Catholic teaching.” All of that would be true, but how does that affect change in the part of the person who is asking for help?

Also keep in mind that masturbation is a VERY common sin for men. Probably one of THE most common sexual sins for men. Pornography is up there too. Our culture is saturated with it. Helping a husband to focus his sexual energy on his spouse should be a noble goal. It will help the husband to realize what a special person his spouse is and to better reject the carnal temptations that the world presents to him. If a personal falls in sin, then need to be encouraged to correct the bad behavior, confess and move forward.

 

[Walking_Home]

I am not arguing that point. I agree it is abusive, but he will most likely NOT recognize this until his addiction is broken. It is why I suggested that she set parameters around submitting to him. Set a time limit, I simply suggested two weeks. If he can go two weeks with no porn and no masturbation, then they will talk about the frequency of sex. MOST addictions take a while to break. If they can be broken the person who was addicted can be made to see how they were acting and change can be affected.

It would be similar to a person who is addicted to alcohol asking their spouse to take them to AA everyday to get them to stop. If the spouse recoiled and said “Your drinking is harming our family. It is destroying our relationship and is not with Catholic teaching.” All of that would be true, but how does that affect change in the part of the person who is asking for help?

Also keep in mind that masturbation is a VERY common sin for men. Probably one of THE most common sexual sins for men. Pornography is up there too. Our culture is saturated with it. Helping a husband to focus his sexual energy on his spouse should be a noble goal. It will help the husband to realize what a special person his spouse is and to better reject the carnal temptations that the world presents to him. If a personal falls in sin, then need to be encouraged to correct the bad behavior, confess and move forward.

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A man who have falls into porn/masturbation – should turn to God and avail himself of Grace God offers – and not turn to his wife and use her as an instrument to quench his lust.

 

[thewanderer]

Pornography is an addiction just like alcohol, drugs, or any other vice. The person who is addicted will usually not be able to break the addiction on their own. Alcoholics rarely if ever check themselves into rehab. They usually get very sick and alienate everyone around them to the point where they are alone. This only re-enforces the habit. It is not usually until someone steps in and attempts to move the person away from the alcohol and into a program that change happens.

Once a person is free from the addiction, THEN they begin to see how their addiction was harming those around them. It is rare for that realization to occur while the person is addicted. The OP said that this habit has been going on for decades. This is not something that is going to stop without serious intervention. He has received an emotional release from doing this for too long. It has become like a smoke who need to the next cigarette to feel balanced. They KNOW the smoking will probably kill them or make their loved ones sick, but they just can’t seem to stop. The same for people who drink.

If offering the marital duty will end this addiction for him, as he said it would, then would it not seem good to at least TRY? Once the addiction is broken, it will be MUCH easier to speak to him about his addiction hurt his marriage.

Having sex every night will not free him of his addiction, it will just mean he is getting his particular high from his wife. Do not even begin to try and paint this as a solution to his addiction. Its not and never will be. You can’t cure a drug addict by giving him more drugs and you can’t cure a sex addict by giving him more sex. That just isn’t how addiction works. Now, I am not suggesting that he should be cut off, or that his wife shouldn’t make sure she is not neglecting him, but her trying for a while to have sex with him every day to see if that will cure his addiction is foolish. It just won’t work. And seeing as she is a person, not an object to be used by him, it would be wrong to suggest that she ought to make such an arrangement more permanent for the sake of preventing him from sinning. There is only so much a person can do and no-one is called to reduce themselves to an object for another in the act of sex just so the other person won’t commit a mortal sin. Doing so would be harmful to their marriage.

 

[mommamaree]

If a Christian wife wants to, out of charity and concern for her husband, offer herself in the act of genuine lovemaking on a nightly basis in order to help quiet her husband’s concupiscence, she certainly may do so. That would be a good and holy thing for her to do. But there is certainly no moral imperative for her to do so. And it is understandable if a wife feels injured or offended by her husband’s stubborn persistence in masturbation and use of porn. She would certainly be a saintly wife if she were able to set aside such feelings and offer lovemaking to her husband. Perhaps, if he experienced the difference between genuine lovemaking and porn/masturbation, after being told that porn/masturbation is wrong and offensive, he might begin to repent. But all of this is speculative. We cannot be sure of what reaction a husband might have to such an offer from his wife. We do know for sure that there is no way for her to extract from him a promise of him not masturbating. Tying together the promise of the act of lovemaking to an extracted promise of not masturbating cheapens the act of lovemaking itself and leads the couple into a situation of the husband using his wife in a masturbatory fashion. It simply will not work. If a husband will not cooperate, and will not willingly give up masturbation, and the wife cannot (of her own accord) quickly overcome her feelings of betrayal and abuse, and if she cannot participate in lovemaking without being consumed with thoughts of his porn use and masturbation, then there is no way forward with this path. In such a situation, unless and until the husband repents, he will only be injuring his wife and marriage. In such a situation, unless and until the wife receives extraordinary graces for healing and self-sacrifice (beyond the normal graces supplied by our Lord for our daily trials), she will only be allowing herself to be injured and used and her dignity diminished.
This situation is a very serious one, and unfortunately it is affecting the marriages of the majority of Christians in the Western world, after generations of society telling us how “good” such an evil is.

 

[Walking_Home]

moon1234:

Pornography is an addiction just like alcohol, drugs, or any other vice. The person who is addicted will usually not be able to break the addiction on their own. Alcoholics rarely if ever check themselves into rehab. They usually get very sick and alienate everyone around them to the point where they are alone. This only re-enforces the habit. It is not usually until someone steps in and attempts to move the person away from the alcohol and into a program that change happens.

Once a person is free from the addiction, THEN they begin to see how their addiction was harming those around them. It is rare for that realization to occur while the person is addicted. The OP said that this habit has been going on for decades. This is not something that is going to stop without serious intervention. He has received an emotional release from doing this for too long. It has become like a smoke who need to the next cigarette to feel balanced. They KNOW the smoking will probably kill them or make their loved ones sick, but they just can’t seem to stop. The same for people who drink.

If offering the marital duty will end this addiction for him, as he said it would, then would it not seem good to at least TRY? Once the addiction is broken, it will be MUCH easier to speak to him about his addiction hurt his marriage.

Having sex every night will not free him of his addiction, it will just mean he is getting his particular high from his wife. Do not even begin to try and paint this as a solution to his addiction. Its not and never will be. You can’t cure a drug addict by giving him more drugs and you can’t cure a sex addict by giving him more sex. That just isn’t how addiction works. Now, I am not suggesting that he should be cut off, or that his wife shouldn’t make sure she is not neglecting him, but her trying for a while to have sex with him every day to see if that will cure his addiction is foolish. It just won’t work. And seeing as she is a person, not an object to be used by him, it would be wrong to suggest that she ought to make such an arrangement more permanent for the sake of preventing him from sinning. There is only so much a person can do and no-one is called to reduce themselves to an object for another in the act of sex just so the other person won’t commit a mortal sin. Doing so would be harmful to their marriage.

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Very well said – on the mark --

 

[moon1234]

Having sex every night will not free him of his addiction, it will just mean he is getting his particular high from his wife. Do not even begin to try and paint this as a solution to his addiction. Its not and never will be. You can’t cure a drug addict by giving him more drugs and you can’t cure a sex addict by giving him more sex. That just isn’t how addiction works. Now, I am not suggesting that he should be cut off, or that his wife shouldn’t make sure she is not neglecting him, but her trying for a while to have sex with him every day to see if that will cure his addiction is foolish. It just won’t work. And seeing as she is a person, not an object to be used by him, it would be wrong to suggest that she ought to make such an arrangement more permanent for the sake of preventing him from sinning. There is only so much a person can do and no-one is called to reduce themselves to an object for another in the act of sex just so the other person won’t commit a mortal sin. Doing so would be harmful to their marriage.

It is only being seen as an object if you choose to see yourself that way. If a legitimate request to have sexual relations with a spouse is rejected, then it can lead to sin. It says so in the bible. I never fail to understand why there is such pushback to having sex in marriage. Why is it seen as a negative? I, personally, do not think it will work either, but at least trying will remove his ability to state to his wife that SHE is the reason he is doing this. If/when it does not work then she will have the reasons to get him into a sex addiction program. He can’t be reasoned with the way it is now, the OP said she tried that already.

Having sex with your spouse is not self destructive or degrading. It is part of marriage.

 

[thewanderer]

If a Christian wife wants to, out of charity and concern for her husband, offer herself in the act of genuine lovemaking on a nightly basis in order to help quiet her husband’s concupiscence, she certainly may do so. That would be a good and holy thing for her to do. But there is certainly no moral imperative for her to do so. And it is understandable if a wife feels injured or offended by her husband’s stubborn persistence in masturbation and use of porn. She would certainly be a saintly wife if she were able to set aside such feelings and offer lovemaking to her husband. Perhaps, if he experienced the difference between genuine lovemaking and porn/masturbation, after being told that porn/masturbation is wrong and offensive, he might begin to repent. But all of this is speculative. We cannot be sure of what reaction a husband might have to such an offer from his wife. We do know for sure that there is no way for her to extract from him a promise of him not masturbating. ** Tying together the promise of the act of lovemaking to an extracted promise of not masturbating cheapens the act of lovemaking itself and leads the couple into a situation of the husband using his wife in a masturbatory fashion. It simply will not work. ** If a husband will not cooperate, and will not willingly give up masturbation, and the wife cannot (of her own accord) quickly overcome her feelings of betrayal and abuse, and if she cannot participate in lovemaking without being consumed with thoughts of his porn use and masturbation, then there is no way forward with this path. In such a situation, unless and until the husband repents, he will only be injuring his wife and marriage. In such a situation, unless and until the wife receives extraordinary graces for healing and self-sacrifice (beyond the normal graces supplied by our Lord for our daily trials), she will only be allowing herself to be injured and used and her dignity diminished.
This situation is a very serious one, and unfortunately it is affecting the marriages of the majority of Christians in the Western world, after generations of society telling us how “good” such an evil is.

This.

 

[thewanderer]

It is only being seen as an object if you choose to see yourself that way. If a legitimate request to have sexual relations with a spouse is rejected, then it can lead to sin. It says so in the bible. I never fail to understand why there is such pushback to having sex in marriage. Why is it seen as a negative? I, personally, do not think it will work either, but at least trying will remove his ability to state to his wife that SHE is the reason he is doing this. If/when it does not work then she will have the reasons to get him into a sex addiction program. He can’t be reasoned with the way it is now, the OP said she tried that already.

Having sex with your spouse is not self destructive or degrading. It is part of marriage.

The husband is not requesting sex daily and being rejected. They have their sex life, and then, on top of that, the husband goes off on his own to fulfill his “needs”. Where has he been claiming this is his wife’s fault? I see nothing to indicate he blames this on his wife. It is a deep seated addiction he has struggled with since he was a teenager. He is not asking for more sex or blaming it on his wife. Rather, his wife feels guilty because she feels it is her duty to prevent him from falling into sin and so feels as though she has to cheapen herself to an object to be used. He is not asking for marital relations, he is supposedly happy with their level of relations. She is not asking for more. This is simply a way of allowing the husband to feed his addiction. Its not about husband and wife showing love to each other.

 

[moon1234]

This.

I still fail to see how denying him sexual relations fixes the problem? Sometimes we are called to do things we do not like or that may not be what we want to do to save a sinner. The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.

Equating sex with a spouse to masturbation or being used in a masturbatory manner is just wrong. They are two completely different acts. One is a sin, the other is not. The motivations for sex with a spouse may not be the ideal or even good, but the act itself is NOT sinful, while masturbation is always sinful.

 

[mommamaree]

moon123,
One thing you are perhaps overlooking is that the act of lovemaking requires something of the husband. He is supposed to be loving his wife physically and caressing and kissing her and seeing to her pleasure. And she is to see to his pleasure and his need to feel loved. There is more than just allowing him to orgasm in the act of lovemaking. And if it is all about just his orgasm, then he is using her in a masturbatory and sinful fashion.
For a man that has become accustomed to a daily orgasm where he does not have to see to the pleasure of anyone but himself, he may no longer have the stamina or desire to love his wife, until he gets himself under control again. There is no moral imperative for a wife to allow herself to be used that way.
Now, if the husband and wife can come to an agreement, like say, “we will make love on a nightly basis for a while, so that you will feel loved and you do not have any cravings for empty pleasures, but we must actually be making love, and I (the wife) will expect you (the husband) to help me enjoy the lovemaking and see to it that I feel comfort and joy”…well, that would be good. But her just submitting to him using her to achieve his own satisfaction would be an abominable way for him to treat her and she should never ever agree to such a thing. It would lead to certain ruin for their marriage.

 

[moon1234]

moon123,
One thing you are perhaps overlooking is that the act of lovemaking requires something of the husband. He is supposed to be loving his wife physically and caressing and kissing her and seeing to her pleasure. And she is to see to his pleasure and his need to feel loved. There is more than just allowing him to orgasm in the act of lovemaking. And if it is all about just his orgasm, then he is using her in a masturbatory and sinful fashion.
For a man that has become accustomed to a daily orgasm where he does not have to see to the pleasure of anyone but himself, he may no longer have the stamina or desire to love his wife, until he gets himself under control again. There is no moral imperative for a wife to allow herself to be used that way.
Now, if the husband and wife can come to an agreement, like say, “we will make love on a nightly basis for a while, so that you will feel loved and you do not have any cravings for empty pleasures, but we must actually be making love, and I (the wife) will expect you (the husband) to help me enjoy the lovemaking and see to it that I feel comfort and joy”…well, that would be good. But her just submitting to him using her to achieve his own satisfaction would be an abominable way for him to treat her and she should never ever agree to such a thing. It would lead to certain ruin for their marriage.

I agree 100% with you above comment. It is what I suggested, maybe not with the same clarity you did. If she presented herself to her husband as you explained above, I don’t know how he would or could in good conscience refuse her. It would be very attractive to feel desired in such a way by a wife.