Advice for friend (intimate question)

[thewanderer]

It is only being seen as an object if you choose to see yourself that way. If a legitimate request to have sexual relations with a spouse is rejected, then it can lead to sin. It says so in the bible. I never fail to understand why there is such pushback to having sex in marriage. Why is it seen as a negative? I, personally, do not think it will work either, but at least trying will remove his ability to state to his wife that SHE is the reason he is doing this. If/when it does not work then she will have the reasons to get him into a sex addiction program. He can’t be reasoned with the way it is now, the OP said she tried that already.

Having sex with your spouse is not self destructive or degrading. It is part of marriage.

The husband is not requesting sex daily and being rejected. They have their sex life, and then, on top of that, the husband goes off on his own to fulfill his “needs”. Where has he been claiming this is his wife’s fault? I see nothing to indicate he blames this on his wife. It is a deep seated addiction he has struggled with since he was a teenager. He is not asking for more sex or blaming it on his wife. Rather, his wife feels guilty because she feels it is her duty to prevent him from falling into sin and so feels as though she has to cheapen herself to an object to be used. He is not asking for marital relations, he is supposedly happy with their level of relations. She is not asking for more. This is simply a way of allowing the husband to feed his addiction. Its not about husband and wife showing love to each other.

I still fail to see how denying him sexual relations fixes the problem? Sometimes we are called to do things we do not like or that may not be what we want to do to save a sinner. The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.

Equating sex with a spouse to masturbation or being used in a masturbatory manner is just wrong. They are two completely different acts. One is a sin, the other is not. The motivations for sex with a spouse may not be the ideal or even good, but the act itself is NOT sinful, while masturbation is always sinful.

First, where in the world did I say she should deny him sex? Absolutely nowhere. I don’t get why you seem to think that anybody who disagrees with you must be against sex in marriage or think its ok for one spouse to deny another without good reason. I am all about the church teachings on the marital debt. I agree %100 with them. I really don’t know why you have this misconception.

Secondly, sex with ones spouse absolutely can be sinful. If either the procreative or the unitive element is removed it is wrong and sinful. Period. That is Church teaching. To claim that once you are married anything goes is just wrong. Nobody is saying the wife can’t increase relations out of love for her husband as a sign of love. What we are saying is she should not do so out of a feeling of obligation to be the means of his sexual release. That is wrong, disunitive, and unhealthy for a marriage.

 

[mommamaree]

I still fail to see how denying him sexual relations fixes the problem? Sometimes we are called to do things we do not like or that may not be what we want to do to save a sinner. The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.

Equating sex with a spouse to masturbation or being used in a masturbatory manner is just wrong. They are two completely different acts. One is a sin, the other is not. The motivations for sex with a spouse may not be the ideal or even good, but the act itself is NOT sinful, while masturbation is always sinful.

Pope Paul VI said himself, in Humanae Vitae that it is not only possible, but likely, that men will begin to treat their wives like prostitutes within marriage if birth control became the norm. How much more so with the advent of pornography. Sorry, moon123, but the word of a sainted pope means much more than a poster on a forum. Using one’s wife for climax, without regard to her pleasure or joy, IS sinful. It is the Church’s teaching, and has been explained and elaborated upon by many many theologians. On top of that, there are many wives here on CAF who have a lot of tragic experience of being the object that their husband uses to act out his masturbatory fantasies. They end up feeling dirty and used by their own husbands.
This is not a necessary result, however, if their husbands can retrain themselves to desire to give of themselves in the act of lovemaking. If a husband can realize the joy he receives by giving, and realizes how empty the pleasure of masturbation really is, it is possible for a marriage to be strengthened again and for both to find joy in the marriage bed. But a wife forcing herself to give herself to someone who is about to abuse her, and not be loving with her at all, can lead a wife and the marriage to a tragic end very quickly.

 

[moon1234]

The husband is not requesting sex daily and being rejected. They have their sex life, and then, on top of that, the husband goes off on his own to fulfill his “needs”. Where has he been claiming this is his wife’s fault? I see nothing to indicate he blames this on his wife. It is a deep seated addiction he has struggled with since he was a teenager. He is not asking for more sex or blaming it on his wife. Rather, his wife feels guilty because she feels it is her duty to prevent him from falling into sin and so feels as though she has to cheapen herself to an object to be used. He is not asking for marital relations, he is supposedly happy with their level of relations. She is not asking for more. This is simply a way of allowing the husband to feed his addiction. Its not about husband and wife showing love to each other.

First, where in the world did I say she should deny him sex? Absolutely nowhere. I don’t get why you seem to think that anybody who disagrees with you must be against sex in marriage or think its ok for one spouse to deny another without good reason. I am all about the church teachings on the marital debt. I agree %100 with them. I really don’t know why you have this misconception.

Secondly, sex with ones spouse absolutely can be sinful. If either the procreative or the unitive element is removed it is wrong and sinful. Period. That is Church teaching. To claim that once you are married anything goes is just wrong. Nobody is saying the wife can’t increase relations out of love for her husband as a sign of love. What we are saying is she should not do so out of a feeling of obligation to be the means of his sexual release. That is wrong, disunitive, and unhealthy for a marriage.

Again agreed, but the husband proposed the sex every night to end his addiction. He, according to OP, said he would STOP the sin if she agreed to have sex with him every night. That to me says he is willing to stop, but it will require a sacrifice on his wife’s part.

I think mommamaree said it best. The wife can place conditions on her spouse in order for him to have sex with her every night. I think the conditions she suggested are 100% reasonable. If that situation, for a time, would end his addiction, how is that not good? It is taking his suggestion and turning into a potential positive outcome.

 

[moon1234]

Pope Paul VI said himself, in Humanae Vitae that it is not only possible, but likely, that men will begin to treat their wives like prostitutes within marriage if birth control became the norm. How much more so with the advent of pornography. Sorry, moon123, but the word of a sainted pope means much more than a poster on a forum. Using one’s wife for climax, without regard to her pleasure or joy, IS sinful. It is the Church’s teaching, and has been explained and elaborated upon by many many theologians. On top of that, there are many wives here on CAF who have a lot of tragic experience of being the object that their husband uses to act out his masturbatory fantasies. They end up feeling dirty and used by their own husbands.
This is not a necessary result, however, if their husbands can retrain themselves to desire to give of themselves in the act of lovemaking. If a husband can realize the joy he receives by giving, and realizes how empty the pleasure of masturbation really is, it is possible for a marriage to be strengthened again and for both to find joy in the marriage bed. But a wife forcing herself to give herself to someone who is about to abuse her, and not be loving with her at all, can lead a wife and the marriage to a tragic end very quickly.

In no way did I suggest the wife should be used. I am sorry if that is the way it came across. It was why I stated conditions should be placed on her having sex with him every night. I think your proposed solution is what should be presented to him.

 

[thewanderer]

Again agreed, **but the husband proposed the sex every night to end his addiction. He, according to OP, said he would STOP the sin if she agreed to have sex with him every night. ** That to me says he is willing to stop, but it will require a sacrifice on his wife’s part.

Wrong. If you reread the OP you will find that the husband is not asking for nightly sex nor claiming it will stop his addiction. It is the wife who, upon finding out that her husband is masturbating and looking at porn felt guilty that she is not being used for his sexual release instead.

I think mommamaree said it best. The wife can place conditions on her spouse in order for him to have sex with her every night. I think the conditions she suggested are 100% reasonable. If that situation, for a time, would end his addiction, how is that not good? It is taking his suggestion and turning into a potential positive outcome.

It is not his suggestion.

 

[mommamaree]

In no way did I suggest the wife should be used. I am sorry if that is the way it came across. It was why I stated conditions should be placed on her having sex with him every night. I think your proposed solution is what should be presented to him.

I don’t think you meant any harm by any of your statements. I think your posts come across as generally compassionate for both the husband and wife. But certain statements are at odds with the realities of marriages impacted by unrepentant porn use and masturbation.
I think it would be wonderful if the wife could offer more frequent lovemaking, with the condition that it actually BE genuine lovemaking, and if the husband could be fully present mentally and emotionally and spiritually in order to begin to discern the difference. That would be God working a wonderful healing for them both. But it is not the only acceptable path forward, morally and psychologically. And to be honest, that is the path forward the asks the most of the wife and is the most challenging. Some wives are already so very injured sexually and emotionally by their husbands that it is not even possible.

 

[Walking_Home]

I’d say – a man who “thinks” his wife is the “answer” to his porn/masturbation addiction-- is doing injury to his wife – and is not a mark – of marriage in the Lord.

 

[Debora123]

I’d say – a man who “thinks” his wife is the “answer” to his porn/masturbation addiction-- is doing injury to his wife – and is not a mark – of marriage in the Lord.

This is true. If it is a legit addiction, no amount of sex with his wife will heal him. He’ll need professional help. Just ask TheBucket.

 

[Debora123]

Having sex every night will not free him of his addiction, it will just mean he is getting his particular high from his wife. Do not even begin to try and paint this as a solution to his addiction. Its not and never will be. You can’t cure a drug addict by giving him more drugs and you can’t cure a sex addict by giving him more sex. That just isn’t how addiction works. Now, I am not suggesting that he should be cut off, or that his wife shouldn’t make sure she is not neglecting him, but her trying for a while to have sex with him every day to see if that will cure his addiction is foolish. It just won’t work. And seeing as she is a person, not an object to be used by him, it would be wrong to suggest that she ought to make such an arrangement more permanent for the sake of preventing him from sinning. There is only so much a person can do and no-one is called to reduce themselves to an object for another in the act of sex just so the other person won’t commit a mortal sin. Doing so would be harmful to their marriage.

 

[thewanderer]

This is true. If it is a legit addiction, no amount of sex with his wife will heal him. He’ll need professional help. Just ask TheBucket.

Yes, I was kind of hoping TheBucket would find this thread and chime in. Hopefully he still will.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Emotionally for a woman it probably does feel like cheating, but to a man it is not seen that way. If you want an analogy then most men will feel that SAME rejection/cheating when they ask their spouse to be intimate and it is told no.

A woman needs to learn how a man’s mind works in order for her to affect the kind of change she wants. WHY is the porn attractive to him? What is it that is causing him to use it? I can guarantee you that the women in the videos/pictures hold no personal desire for a man from a relationship viewpoint.

Pointing the fact that what he is doing is sinning will probably not have any effect on him if this is a habit. The wife expressing her hurt, may have some impact, but if his sex life with her is poor already, he will probably just dismiss it and it may cause him to use this habit more if he feels rejected.

It is why I suggested that she bow to his request for a short period and see if that fixes the problem. If it does not, then the wife can no longer be used as an excuse and it will be EASIER for her to ask him to get professional help. I can guarantee you that if his sex life at home is all that he wants it to be (within what is permitted by the Church) he will come to view his habits as disordered.

I am sorry of that sounds outside of what many of the women feel is correct or acceptable. I offered it as a viewpoint from a male perspective on how women can influence men with this problem and attempt to get the outcome they desire.

If my girlfriend/wife looked at porn, I would feel like she cheated on me. Why? Because she did. I’m a man, and I see and feel pornography is cheating. Don’t equate your personal thought processes and apply them to the rest of men.

 

[severus68]

Having sex in order to bring the couple closer and end an unchaste habit IS UNITIVE. To reject that aspect of sexuality is selfish on the one doing the rejecting.

I think there is MORE to this than just him masturbating and the porn. Men who are rejected enough times in their advances towards their wives will eventually turn to porn and masturbation. The porn never says no, there is no rejection.

I am not trying to justify his habits, but I do think that there is another side to this story that is NOT being told. It should also be pointed out that sins that become habits can be very hard to break and the culpability for them can be mitigated.

If I were the OP I would OFFER herself to her husband WHENEVER he wants for two weeks. Anytime of the day. The only condition is that the porn must go and he can not masturbate. My guess is that the first three or four days will go fine and then one of two things will happen. Either he will be broken of his habit or he will revert to his bad habits. If he reverts then he is cornered and be talked into getting help as his wife can no longer be used as an excuse to continue these bad habits.

MOST men desire frequent sex with their wives to affirm that they are loved and wanted. After a time of frequent sex MOST men will slow their desires for intimacy since they will no longer feel like they need their wife to prove they will not reject them.

I say all of this to try and share what goes through a mans mind and how to use that knowledge to affect the change that you desire. I can guarantee with almost 100% certainty that an ultimatum to him to stop or else will NOT work. He KNOWS what he is doing is wrong, but men do not usually respond to ultimatums in positive ways, no matter who is doing the demanding. Give him what he wants for a time and see if it works. If it DOES then negotiate with him on a schedule for intimacy and STICK TO IT. If he KNOWS when he will be having sex with his wife, he will look forward to it and plan around it.

Its the OP’s friend and husband btw.

The husband has had this addiction since a teenager, before he was married. No way can this be blamed on his wife.

It is not unitive when the act is to satisfy one partner’s urges. Trying to blame the wife is giving the husband a free “do not go to jail” card.

 

[severus68]

Viewing porn is on equal grounds as cheating. I would feel completely and utterly betrayed if my husband did this.

She needs to explain this to him, and the behavior needs to stop.

Yes.

 

[severus68]

And if she reveals this to her husband instead of responding with love and affection, it will further drive him away. The OP already stated that the husband is comfortable with his sin. HE KNOWS it is disordered. He doesn’t care. He is not your good Catholic husband who already knows and accepts this.

Sometimes charity on the part of the person who is hurt can affect change in ways that hostility can not.

Sex for MOST men (not all) is a very primal/carnal thing. It is not usually wrapped up in emotion in order for the physical act to happen. MEN get emotionally damaged when they feel unloved or rejected by those they WANT to have sex with. Remember the porn NEVER says no. It always says yes.

Should she have to compete with the porn, no of course not. I am sorry if my suggestion was offensive, I offered it because I KNOW that is has worked in the past.

You are insulting the ‘most’ men you are referring to. So, if a wife is hurt in an accident and can’t have sex for a long time or ever again, does he husband feel unloved and rejected? Do men only get married for the licit sex? Definitely not. Marriage is not only or all about sex. I pity the man who cannot see love beyond his bits.

 

[severus68]

Having sex every night will not free him of his addiction, it will just mean he is getting his particular high from his wife. Do not even begin to try and paint this as a solution to his addiction. Its not and never will be. You can’t cure a drug addict by giving him more drugs and you can’t cure a sex addict by giving him more sex. That just isn’t how addiction works. Now, I am not suggesting that he should be cut off, or that his wife shouldn’t make sure she is not neglecting him, but her trying for a while to have sex with him every day to see if that will cure his addiction is foolish. It just won’t work. And seeing as she is a person, not an object to be used by him, it would be wrong to suggest that she ought to make such an arrangement more permanent for the sake of preventing him from sinning. There is only so much a person can do and no-one is called to reduce themselves to an object for another in the act of sex just so the other person won’t commit a mortal sin. Doing so would be harmful to their marriage.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Offering the marital duty to end ones sin is no crime and would be a good measure of self giving. It may be revolting, etc. but if it ends his addiction to porn and masturbation, then that IS a positive outcome is it not? .

I haven’t finished the thread, but this post has me almost screaming, so I need to respond. I have BTDT. When sex for the man is about lust rather than love, as it is in an addiction, the wife offering herself to be used like this is NOT A GOOD THING. She is demeaning herself and permitting her husband to demean her.

Until he has repented and done some work, he will just use her as a live substitute for the porn, and it will tear apart her soul. Maybe moon1234 had a better experience, but in my case, all it did was enable my husband to continue to have non-unitive sex, just using my body as the receptacle for his masturbation. And then he could justify it to himself, that he was having sex with his wife and God says that is good.

I would suggest that if the idea sets off alarm bells in your head, then listen up and DON’T DO IT.