Advice needed, husband attending bachelor party

[thechrismyster]

my story…Picture this … 3 days before my wedding, about 10 friends of mine - spearheaded by my morally bankrupt buddy whom i’ve known since we’ve been 5… rent a chaffeured party bus, we head into philly, bar hop on delaware avenue, old city and get dinner at a nice restaurant in Chinatown… beer is flowing… most of the guys are a little tuned up at 9 pm already… then, because most of them are basically pigs who i rarely hang out with and who put on this pathetic bachelor party (ok, the food was great, but their entertainment choice stunk) simply as an excuse to go out to strip clubs in front of their wives… they say “you’re going to some strip clubs” i say OK because i have it all planned…we end up at a strip club in the city…everyone piles off the bus, i’m last out of the bus…(most are already drunk at this point)… i tell them i’m going to the wawa next door to get a cup of coffee.
THEN my plan goes into action… i call my wife (then girlfriend), who has been waiting in a nearby shopping center (spending money at old navy, i might add) comes over, picks me up and we take off outta there like two kids skipping school… we go to Geno’s steaks, walk around penn’s landing (romantic spot on the river) - go ice skating at the rink there then watch a jazz performer at a quaint local bar on South Street…basically have a great time with my bride-to-be… then, about 1:30 in the morning, we drive to the parking lot of another strip club i knew they would head to (with or without me, it didn’t matter a whole lot to these guys), see the bus, my gal kisses me and says goodnight and drives home to her house… i get on the party bus, lay down on the back seat and go to sleep.

it’s now 2am… these guys stagger on the bus, i tell them i came out here to sleep after one to many beers, fake a little sickness… we drive back and we all go our merry ways… I have them all convinced I was there the whole time but they were too drunk to notice… they look at me puzzled, but i think they believe me.

I was the person the bachelor the party was for, and i missed the whole thing.
My WIFE and i still laugh about how i managed to escape my bachelor party.

One of her laughs satisfies my heart more than a milion strippers ever could.

plus i got a free chinese dinner AND a philly cheesesteak.
the way i look at it, if the worst sin on my bachelor party was a bit of festive gluttony… that’s not too shabby.

 

[Hermione]

What I don’t understand is why any woman would marry her fiance after he went to a bachelor party with strippers.

If such behavior goes on before marriage, what do you think will change afterwards? Why break your heart?

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Hermione:

What I don’t understand is why any woman would marry her fiance after he went to a bachelor party with strippers.

If such behavior goes on before marriage, what do you think will change afterwards? Why break your heart?

Probably because

(1) They love them

(b) The groom to be didn’t plan the party

(III) The Brides to be is comfortable with herself

(4) The bride is thinking about the Chippendales

(E) THEY TRUST THEM! Why would you marry anyone you didn’t trust? You’re not going to be together every moment of every day of your married lives. Sooner or later you have to let him out of your sight. If you don’t trust him now how will it change later? Catherinesiena sounds more like this guy’s mother than his wife.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

[Hermione]

(1) They love them

But does the fiance love her? This isn’t some trival thing. Jesus said that “every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). To love means to put the other person first. Does a man who is willing to commit adultery in his heart really love his fiancee?

(b) The groom to be didn’t plan the party

Okay, the appropriate course of action for this man would be to put an end to the party right when he learns that strippers and other inappropriate behaviors are to be involved.

(III) The Brides to be is comfortable with herself

What does this have to do with anything? If the bride is comfortable with an unfaithful groom, she has even more to worry about.

(4) The bride is thinking about the Chippendales

Okay, the marriage is going to be built on adultery in the heart on the part of both spouses. Great. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

(E) THEY TRUST THEM! Why would you marry anyone you didn’t trust? You’re not going to be together every moment of every day of your married lives. Sooner or later you have to let him out of your sight. If you don’t trust him now how will it change later? Catherinesiena sounds more like this guy’s mother than his wife.

Why would you trust someone who thinks that there’s nothing wrong with cheating on you in his heart and mind? I think the fact that the guy is going to a strip club is a very good reason not to trust him.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love is also unselfish. If she feels uncomfortable with the stripclub, he simply shouldn’t do it because he loves her.

Another reason he shouldn’t do it is that it’s morally wrong.

 

[Chrismasfetus]

thechrismyster:

my story…Picture this … 3 days before my wedding, about 10 friends of mine - spearheaded by my morally bankrupt buddy whom i’ve known since we’ve been 5… rent a chaffeured party bus, we head into philly, bar hop on delaware avenue, old city and get dinner at a nice restaurant in Chinatown… beer is flowing… most of the guys are a little tuned up at 9 pm already… then, because most of them are basically pigs who i rarely hang out with and who put on this pathetic bachelor party (ok, the food was great, but their entertainment choice stunk) simply as an excuse to go out to strip clubs in front of their wives… they say “you’re going to some strip clubs” i say OK because i have it all planned…we end up at a strip club in the city…everyone piles off the bus, i’m last out of the bus…(most are already drunk at this point)… i tell them i’m going to the wawa next door to get a cup of coffee.
THEN my plan goes into action… i call my wife (then girlfriend), who has been waiting in a nearby shopping center (spending money at old navy, i might add) comes over, picks me up and we take off outta there like two kids skipping school… we go to Geno’s steaks, walk around penn’s landing (romantic spot on the river) - go ice skating at the rink there then watch a jazz performer at a quaint local bar on South Street…basically have a great time with my bride-to-be… then, about 1:30 in the morning, we drive to the parking lot of another strip club i knew they would head to (with or without me, it didn’t matter a whole lot to these guys), see the bus, my gal kisses me and says goodnight and drives home to her house… i get on the party bus, lay down on the back seat and go to sleep.

it’s now 2am… these guys stagger on the bus, i tell them i came out here to sleep after one to many beers, fake a little sickness… we drive back and we all go our merry ways… I have them all convinced I was there the whole time but they were too drunk to notice… they look at me puzzled, but i think they believe me.

I was the person the bachelor the party was for, and i missed the whole thing.
My WIFE and i still laugh about how i managed to escape my bachelor party.

One of her laughs satisfies my heart more than a milion strippers ever could.

plus i got a free chinese dinner AND a philly cheesesteak.
the way i look at it, if the worst sin on my bachelor party was a bit of festive gluttony… that’s not too shabby.

Funny!!!

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Hermione, you do realize that my first four items were just toss offs to set up the fifth, don’t you?

Hermione:

But does the fiance love her? This isn’t some trival thing. Jesus said that “every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). To love means to put the other person first. Does a man who is willing to commit adultery in his heart really love his fiancee?

I would not presume to guess what is in someone’s heart

I don’t make a habit of strippers and the very, very, few times I’ve seen them it wasn’t my idea
But the feelings they evoked were ones of sympathy rather than lust.
They also made me long for my wife or fiancé

……What does this have to do with anything? If the bride is comfortable with an unfaithful groom, she has even more to worry about.

A bride who is comfortable with herself wouldn’t assume that the groom is being unfaithful. Like I said either she trusts him (and he her) or she doesn’t
If she is that insecure that she thinks that the mere sight of another woman means adultery she is in big trouble during the annual vacations to the beach.

Jealousy is a sin too, if I recall correctly; as is pride…you know the smug, self assured, judgmental type.

Hermione:

Okay, the marriage is going to be built on adultery in the heart on the part of both spouses. Great.

That was put in as a joke. But once again you are making assumptions about what is in someone’s’ heart.

Hermione:

Why would you trust someone who thinks that there’s nothing wrong with cheating on you in his heart and mind? I think the fact that the guy is going to a strip club is a very good reason not to trust him.

It sounds like there are trust issues here with or without the party

There are opportunities for cheating everywhere everyday. So either you trust someone or you don’t.

He could be flirting with the waitress down at the diner while she’s back home looking out the kitchen window at the poolboy’s gleaming muscles. Don’t need no stinking party for sin.

In the grand scheme of things the party is a blip.

In fact since it is an extraordinary event (and it sounds like he will be interrogated on his return home if he is “allowed” out of the house at all) it seems that it is less likely that anything untoward would happen.

It is usually the coworker, the neighbor, the best friend or some other familiar person that is the source of adultery

Hermione:

Love is also unselfish. If she feels uncomfortable with the stripclub, he simply shouldn’t do it because he loves her.

True. But she sounds like she is issuing ultimatums rather than simply conveying that she is uncomfortable

Hopefully they will work out a solution that satisfies both of them

Hermione:

Another reason he shouldn’t do it is that it’s morally wrong.

It is a possible source of temptation and should be approached carefully if at all.

But if his intentions are merely to stand up for his friend it is a good start.

After all, every bachelor party needs the responsible one who helps the others not do anything stupid.

 

[Hermione]

Steve Andersen:

I don’t make a habit of strippers and the very, very, few times I’ve seen them it wasn’t my idea
But the feelings they evoked were ones of sympathy rather than lust.
They also made me long for my wife or fiancé

But it was your idea to stay there once you got there.

Sympathy for strippers? Is this the same kind of sympathy that people who watch pornography feel for the women in them?

I sure wouldn’t want to be the wife of a man who would come to me to get off after getting all worked up by strippers.

A bride who is comfortable with herself wouldn’t assume that the groom is being unfaithful. Like I said either she trusts him (and he her) or she doesn’t
If she is that insecure that she thinks that the mere sight of another woman means adultery she is in big trouble during the annual vacations to the beach.

Jealousy is a sin too, if I recall correctly; as is pride…you know the smug, self assured, judgmental type. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

You and I have very different definitions of what being unfaithful means. Looking at other women IS unfaithfulness. Jesus Himself said so.

Looking at strippers, pornography (the two are really the same thing anyway) IS cheating. Why be comfortable with someone who cheats? Why trust them?

But once again you are making assumptions about what is in someone’s’ heart.

I don’t think it’s a huge leap to assume that a man who is looking at women who are undressing themselves in a sexual way is lusting after them.

Just what do you think is in the heart of someone who looks at pornographic material? Gardening?

Of course that person is in a sexual state of mind, being aroused by, fantasizing about the other women etc.

This is adultery in the heart.

There are opportunities for cheating everywhere everyday. So either you trust someone or you don’t.

I agree. Such as internet pornography, tv pornography, pornographic magazines, more strip clubs etc.

Can a guy who goes to strip clubs be trusted not to look at those? No.

Why set yourself up for a broken marriage?

 

[Genesis315]

Being a guy, I would have to say that any guy who allows or tolerates his friends to get him strippers is weak and not ready for marriage (friends should most likely know your religious convictions beforehand so they probably aren’t good friends in the first place if they get strippers).

The idea of strippers is that it’s the groom’s last hurrah so to speak. He gets to see some other woman naked before he takes the plunge and can only see his wife. This implies that it is somehow a good to see more women than your wife naked. Anyone who is actually prepared for marriage and who actually loves his soon-to-be wife should have absolutely no desire to watch strippers. If he does, he has a depraved and divided heart that wil never be able to be focused on one woman for very long.

As for men who don’t want strippers, but stick around when they show up, they are weak and don’t have the backbone to be a good husband. They put their friends opinions of them over their wife and their God.

I’m sure I’ll be accused of being judgmental and self righteous, but that’s the way it is. Anyone can make-up whatever excuses they want to justify their behavior, but don’t try and say it is right or ok.

 

[catherinesiena]

My husband had the stripper, and I was very hurt and almost called off the wedding, but he asked my forgiveness and I gave that to him. Now that the subject is coming up a year later, I just don’t know if I can handle it again…I will just be crushed.

 

[Hermione]

My husband had the stripper, and I was very hurt and almost called off the wedding, but he asked my forgiveness and I gave that to him. Now that the subject is coming up a year later, I just don’t know if I can handle it again…I will just be crushed.

I’m very sorry. This must be terrible for you.

Is your husband Catholic? Would he listen to the advice of a priest?
Would he read what’s in the Catechism? The Bible?

Does he care about sinning? From everything I know, looking at strippers is grave matter that would make a mortal sin if the conditions of knowledge, full consent etc. are met.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

……Sympathy for strippers?

Yes, it can’t be the easiest profession in the world.
For some reason they make me sad
Have you no compassion or empathy?

……I sure wouldn’t want to be the wife of a man who would come to me to get off after getting all worked up by strippers.

Did I say “worked up”? No, I said “longing”.

I would hate to be the husband of a woman who couldn’t tell the difference

Hermione:

You and I have very different definitions of what being unfaithful means. Looking at other women IS unfaithfulness. Jesus Himself said so.

IIRC He said lusting after other women is adultery …not looking

This isn’t Iran you know. We don’t put women in bags. (Or men for that matter)
They are right out in plain sight for all to see.

……I don’t think it’s a huge leap to assume that a man who is looking at women who are undressing themselves in a sexual way is lusting after them.

You would be quite amazed what goes through a person’s mind.

If someone is out to “lust” after someone undressed they could just stay at home and leaf through the Sears catalogue.

……Of course that person is in a sexual state of mind, being aroused by, fantasizing about the other women etc.

Once again you are assuming that the object any fantasizing is the “other”

……Such as internet pornography, tv pornography, pornographic magazines, more strip clubs etc….

There was adultery long before there were movies, video tape, glossy magazines, or the internet.

 

[rayne89]

Steve Andersen:

A bride who is comfortable with herself wouldn’t assume that the groom is being unfaithful. Like I said either she trusts him (and he her) or she doesn’t
If she is that insecure that she thinks that the mere sight of another woman means adultery she is in big trouble during the annual vacations to the beach.

Jealousy is a sin too, if I recall correctly; as is pride…you know the smug, self assured, judgmental type.

That is the biggest line of bs. What about respect for the woman you love, and the relationship you share? This is not a “mere sight of another woman” this is a woman who is nearly naked, dancing provacitively specifically for the “entertainment” of the groom, and those attending. This is not some mere happenstance but this type of “entertainment” is being specifically sought out.

Your about to make a lifelong commitment to the woman your professing to love and you celebrate by looking at nearly naked woman, dancing in your face. What the heck is that?

For me this isn’t about trust, or jealousy. Yeah I’m real jealous of women who think so highly of themselves they make a living by stripping their clothes of for a bunch half drunk, adolescent acting males. This is about the respect that owed to the woman you love, and the relationship you share.

Women sell themselves short when they’re made feel like their being distrustful and insecure of they don’t want their man attending an event where women will be taking their clothes off.

What do you think Jesus’ opinion would be on the matter? You think he would have attended a bachelor party with strippers before the wedding at Cana?

You know whose insecure? The guys that don’t have the ***** to tell their friends that don’t want to attend if strippers will be present. Their more worried about what the guys will think than hurting their wife/girlfriend/fiance. Now that is insecurity.

By the way I’m plenty comfortable with myself, comfortable enough to say if your so interested in looking at a nearly naked woman right before your making a life long commitment to me you can keep on being single buddy.

 

[thechrismyster]

rayne89 dribbles down the court… shoots… SCORES.

you’re post was right on.

I didn’t even go into the strip clubs at my OWN bachelor party. I was absent. Those fools i have for friends aren’t going to ever judge what is right or wrong for me. my conscience does a fine job at that.

 

[Hermione]

Steve Andersen:

Yes, it can’t be the easiest profession in the world.
For some reason they make me sad
Have you no compassion or empathy?

And hardcore pornography helps men to get in touch with their emotional side?

Did I say “worked up”? No, I said “longing”.

I wonder what sort of longing is inspired by a strange woman shaking her private parts at you for a few dollars. I wonder if it has anything to do with that compassionate side you mentioned earlier.

He said lusting after other women is adultery …not looking

This isn’t Iran you know. We don’t put women in bags. (Or men for that matter)
They are right out in plain sight for all to see.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines lust as:
"2351** Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes."

What does watching naked women dance in a sexual manner have to do with unity and openness to life within a conjugal relationship? Sounds like that adultery in the heart Jesus talked about.

If someone is out to “lust” after someone undressed they could just stay at home and leaf through the Sears catalogue.

You bet. Pornographic content is everywhere in modern society. All the more reason not to marry someone who goes to strip clubs, he can’t be trusted to avoid it.

There was adultery long before there were movies, video tape, glossy magazines, or the internet.

Yeah, but have you noticed how much it has spiked in the recent years? Notice how much divorce rate has increased since various pornographic content became so widespread? Coincidence…?

There’s a reason why God made these things sinful. They destroy our lives, our marriages, our souls…

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Actually divorce rates have been dropping steadily

divorcereform.org/03statab.html
the 2001 rate was about the same as 1972

Maybe that internet has done something to keep people at home

Once again we seem to be talking past each other
Must be one of those “same planet, different worlds” things

You somehow make the leap from this guy attending a one time event in support of his friends to “hardcore” pornography and divorce.

I don’t know what is going to go on there and neither do you so why assume the worst?

My point was that these parties run the gamut from mild to criminal and that most are just plain harmless. So I was wondering why catherinesiena is issuing ultimatums and apparently trying to make her husband choose between her of his friends? (Not to mention running off to a public forum for support) I get the impress that there are more trust issues here than we know about. So I don’t think that we are in a position to automatically make a judgment about either party.

Shrug
Your mileage may vary

 

[Hermione]

Steve Andersen:

Actually divorce rates have been dropping steadily

This is misleading, because at the same time the number of people who never get married is going up, up, up (and I bet they aren’t becoming priests and nuns). I mean that divorce rates have increased when compared to the time before pornography, birth control etc. 1972 and now aren’t really that much different from the perspective of sexual morality.

You somehow make the leap from this guy attending a one time event in support of his friends to “hardcore” pornography and divorce.

I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to make this leap either. If the guy has so little moral courage that he would rather support his buddies than do the will of God and his duty as a husband… well, there’s a big problem.

If “supporting” his friends is more important to him than doing what’s right, can he really be trusted in any area?

This is someone who is willing to sin (mortally if he is doing this with knowledge and consent) to please his friends, just what won’t he do?

 

[catherinesiena]

Hermione:

I’m very sorry. This must be terrible for you.

Is your husband Catholic? Would he listen to the advice of a priest?
Would he read what’s in the Catechism? The Bible?

Does he care about sinning? From everything I know, looking at strippers is grave matter that would make a mortal sin if the conditions of knowledge, full consent etc. are met.

This is what I’m worried about most of all. I’m afraid for his Christian walk and the state of his soul. My husband is Catholic, but feels that because other people in the world do “worse” things, that this isn’t something to get worked up about.

 

[Hermione]

This is what I’m worried about most of all. I’m afraid for his Christian walk and the state of his soul. My husband is Catholic, but feels that because other people in the world do “worse” things, that this isn’t something to get worked up about.

Hi Catherine http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif This is Hermione’s fiance; she asked me to comment on your situation. Bless you for your faith, and the love that you express toward your husband despite the things he does which hurt you. My first suggestion would be to continue praying for your husband; your prayers are never in vain. You have every reason to be concerned for your husband’s soul; as Jesus said, looking at another woman lustfully is adultery (see Mt 5: 27-30). We know, from the universal Catechism, that lust such as this is “a grave offense” (see paragraph 2354). After saying as much in Matthew, our Lord warns us, “If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away… It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.” This is a mortal sin. Mortal sins send us to hell. That is simple theological truth. Our Lady of Fatima warned that more souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason. The question you can ask your husband: Is he really willing to readily reject God and commit a mortal sin because “other people in the world do ‘worse’ things”? Committing a mortal sin is something to get worked up about. Jesus tells us He would rather have us gouge out our eyes than commit mortal sins. Saints have endured torture because they refused to consent to someone else’s mortal sins. Committing a mortal sin out of hardness of heart is even worse. It is mandatory that your husband be repentant in order to get to heaven if he commits this sin. Yet it is exceedingly difficult to be repentant when you presume God will forgive you in the first place because “other people in the world do ‘worse’ things.” In fact, this sort of attitude is typically regarded as one of the sins against the Holy Spirit. Sins against the Holy Spirit can lead to final impenitence and ultimately to loss of heaven.

What I don’t understand is why your husband is willing to do something (which he knows is wrong) despite how much he knows it will hurt you.

 

[Hermione]

This is what I’m worried about most of all. I’m afraid for his Christian walk and the state of his soul. My husband is Catholic, but feels that because other people in the world do “worse” things, that this isn’t something to get worked up about.

I think it’s very important for you to find a way to help your husband grow in faith. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that your husband doesn’t have a strong faith. He doesn’t seem to understand the Church’s teachings on mortal sins, otherwise he would not say it’s okay because “other people do worse things.”

I think you should start praying together (if you already don’t), and doing examinations of conscience! catholicparents.org/oxcart/examination.html Is a good one.

Also, here is a good Catholic website about chastity: pureloveclub.com/

Try to make an appointment with a priest for both of you to discuss these issues. Get him to go to Confession if he doesn’t go. Read Catholic books together.

What’s your husband’s prayer life like? Does he frequent the sacraments? Has he been taught well?

 

[Hermione]

Hermione:

I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to make this leap either. If the guy has so little moral courage that he would rather support his buddies than do the will of God and his duty as a husband… well, there’s a big problem.

If “supporting” his friends is more important to him than doing what’s right, can he really be trusted in any area?

This is someone who is willing to sin (mortally if he is doing this with knowledge and consent) to please his friends, just what won’t he do?

I’m afraid I may have been judgmental here, and have condemned the person instead of the behavior. If I did this, I’m sorry.

I pray he does the right thing and gets to Heaven.