Advice on a friendship...adultery(?)

[exiled]

Hi all,
My oldest and very dear friend has a tough life. Some of that toughness is from poor decision making, some has been by circumstances beyond her control. She’s exhausted and has very few…happy, carefree days, or even moments.
She met a man and now has a “friend” that is “in love” with her, and he’s made no bones about telling her. He is married, too, and not a Catholic in any way. As well as I know her, I am certain that she has feelings for him, too, but she denies it vehemently. For over a year now (we don’t live near each other) when the subject has come up, I tell her how opposed I am to her continuing this friendship and that I think she is in danger of finding herself doing something that she will regret. She doesn’t know it, but her husband called me last spring to see if I could help convince her to dump this friend. He’s uncomfortable, too. She has refused, and I finally had to tell her not to talk to me about him anymore; that I didn’t want to hear it.
Anyway, I spent my summer vacation in my hometown and went to visit my friend. She set it up that this friend would come over to meet me while visiting. I am so upset that she seems to be trying to drag me back into this nonsense that I haven’t spoken to her since.
So #1-I’m still upset about the relationship, but I think I’ve done all I can to convince her that it is wrong, and she’s still just fooling herself. She’s not going to change her mind based on anything I say.
And #2-and here is what I hope for some help on. What, if anything, do I do or say, about her setting up this meeting? I hate the word “disrespected”, but that pretty much sums up how I feel about this. Do I say “him or me”, which seems like a childish and petty response, but I just don’t know.

Any ideas? TIA!

 

[Rainaldo]

Hi all,
My oldest and very dear friend has a tough life. Some of that toughness is from poor decision making, some has been by circumstances beyond her control. She’s exhausted and has very few…happy, carefree days, or even moments.
She met a man and now has a “friend” that is “in love” with her, and he’s made no bones about telling her. He is married, too, and not a Catholic in any way. As well as I know her, I am certain that she has feelings for him, too, but she denies it vehemently. For over a year now (we don’t live near each other) when the subject has come up, I tell her how opposed I am to her continuing this friendship and that I think she is in danger of finding herself doing something that she will regret. She doesn’t know it, but her husband called me last spring to see if I could help convince her to dump this friend. He’s uncomfortable, too. She has refused, and I finally had to tell her not to talk to me about him anymore; that I didn’t want to hear it.
Anyway, I spent my summer vacation in my hometown and went to visit my friend. She set it up that this friend would come over to meet me while visiting. I am so upset that she seems to be trying to drag me back into this nonsense that I haven’t spoken to her since.
So #1-I’m still upset about the relationship, but I think I’ve done all I can to convince her that it is wrong, and she’s still just fooling herself. She’s not going to change her mind based on anything I say.
And #2-and here is what I hope for some help on. What, if anything, do I do or say, about her setting up this meeting? I hate the word “disrespected”, but that pretty much sums up how I feel about this. Do I say “him or me”, which seems like a childish and petty response, but I just don’t know.

Any ideas? TIA!

So basically your question is, My friend is planning to commit adultery and she wants me to meet the accomplice; shall I end our friendship, or would that be childish and petty of me?

I vote for ending your friendship. The one being childish and petty is not you.

 

[ricofall]

If my wife asked me to end a suspicious friendship, plain and simple, I would. I understand that my family is more important that any other group of people. She will be there when my ‘friends’ won’t or can’t. She took care of me when I was sick and supported my decisions. Friends validate our dumb decisions, family lets us know when we are making dump decisions.

 

[Little_Mary]

Do not end your friendship. Real friendships are forever. But you must be firm. Tell her plainly that what she is doing is wrong, that you do not approve, that you love her BUT you will neither support nor condone her behavior.

Be an ear to listen when she needs it. Continue to encourage her to end this “friendship”. List all the good things she has, point out her husband’s love for her and his good qualities.

It may go on for months, and she may not heed any of your advice and go through with the affair, but in the end things like this always end tragically. Always. It is then that she will need you the most.

Do not end your friendship. Be the voice that continues to encourage her to change her path. You can do this while making it clear that you neither support nor condone her behavior. But she needs to know that you will always be there for her and that you love her.

 

[mtbender]

Do not end your friendship. Real friendships are forever. But you must be firm. Tell her plainly that what she is doing is wrong, that you do not approve, that you love her BUT you will neither support nor condone her behavior.

Be an ear to listen when she needs it. Continue to encourage her to end this “friendship”. List all the good things she has, point out her husband’s love for her and his good qualities.

It may go on for months, and she may not heed any of your advice and go through with the affair, but in the end things like this always end tragically. Always. It is then that she will need you the most.

Do not end your friendship. Be the voice that continues to encourage her to change her path. You can do this while making it clear that you neither support nor condone her behavior. But she needs to know that you will always be there for her and that you love her.

Couldn’t agree more!

 

[exiled]

Do not end your friendship. Real friendships are forever. But you must be firm. Tell her plainly that what she is doing is wrong, that you do not approve, that you love her BUT you will neither support nor condone her behavior.

Be an ear to listen when she needs it. Continue to encourage her to end this “friendship”. List all the good things she has, point out her husband’s love for her and his good qualities.

It may go on for months, and she may not heed any of your advice and go through with the affair, but in the end things like this always end tragically. Always. It is then that she will need you the most.

Do not end your friendship. Be the voice that continues to encourage her to change her path. You can do this while making it clear that you neither support nor condone her behavior. But she needs to know that you will always be there for her and that you love her.

That’s the rub now, though. I’ve been doing all that gentle stuff, but she’s adamant. Her husband is already concerned, and the truth is, I’ve heard her say many things about this other guy that would freak me out if I were her husband. I’m sure she’s telling him that she has no feelings for the guy, but I know her better than that. She trying to convince herself that it’s all on the up and up. One of these days, when she’s in another one of her breakdowns because of her life situation, I think this guy is going to swoop in and THAT is when something is going to happen.
To set me up to meet him infuriated me. I don’t want to be dragged into this soap opera, but she is the friend who brought me into the Church, and he whole family has been another family to me.

 

[newf]

I think you need to tell her to call you when this affair is OVER. Until then, you are not available. This is called tough love. Your staying involved with her while she continues to live in delusion isn’t helpful.

All this ‘real friendships last forever’ stuff is baloney. Real friendships last while people show respect for each other. When that changes, the friendship wanes. There is a season for everything…

I hope things turn around for your friend. But you cannot make her choices for her and you cannot fix her. The Lord used her family to bring you to the church, they didn’t do it on their own. I know this is hard but it is SHE who is making this mess, no one else.

 

[Rainaldo]

Do not end your friendship. Real friendships are forever. But you must be firm. Tell her plainly that what she is doing is wrong, that you do not approve, that you love her BUT you will neither support nor condone her behavior.

Be an ear to listen when she needs it. Continue to encourage her to end this “friendship”. List all the good things she has, point out her husband’s love for her and his good qualities.

It may go on for months, and she may not heed any of your advice and go through with the affair, but in the end things like this always end tragically. Always. It is then that she will need you the most.

Do not end your friendship. Be the voice that continues to encourage her to change her path. You can do this while making it clear that you neither support nor condone her behavior. But she needs to know that you will always be there for her and that you love her.

I totally disagree. This woman is planning to violate the human rights of her children, his children, and any children that may be born of their illicit union. (If they make it to birth, that is. Lest we forget.)

 

[Rainaldo]

That’s the rub now, though. I’ve been doing all that gentle stuff, but she’s adamant. Her husband is already concerned, and the truth is, I’ve heard her say many things about this other guy that would freak me out if I were her husband. I’m sure she’s telling him that she has no feelings for the guy, but I know her better than that. She trying to convince herself that it’s all on the up and up. One of these days, when she’s in another one of her breakdowns because of her life situation, I think this guy is going to swoop in and THAT is when something is going to happen.
To set me up to meet him infuriated me. I don’t want to be dragged into this soap opera, but she is the friend who brought me into the Church, and he whole family has been another family to me.

So now you’re adding that you know,

• she’s lying to her husband,
• has a high capacity for self-deception,
• is emotionally unstable,
• and has frequent breakdowns,
• plus you might get sucked into the drama?

Get a hold of yourself, exile. You are about to keep this drama going, with yourself entangled in it. End the friendship now. Why is she even in your life in the first place? I mean that’s great that she brought you into the Church and that family has been a family to you and all that, but you are basically like a horse running back into a burning barn at this point.

If she goes through with the affair, do you want everyone else in your church saying you’re her friend?

 

[Rainaldo]

All this ‘real friendships last forever’ stuff is baloney. Real friendships last while people show respect for each other. When that changes, the friendship wanes. There is a season for everything…

If I had a dime for every drug addict or alcoholic who insisted that his fellow addicts or the losers at the bar are his friends…

Friends are people who love the same things, whether it’s homeschooling or NASCAR. If this woman’s lifestyle includes pursuing an adulterous relationship, then Exiled will have to change her own attitude towards her friend’s adultery if the friendship is to continue.

The simplest way to preserve the friendship is to have Exiled silence herself.

• The first step in that direction would be for Exiled to reassure this woman that friendship is forever and that this woman’s family is like a family to her. This guarantees that Exiled will be firmly anchored to her and entangled in her personal drama.
• The next step would be for Exiled to make gentle and persistent, but utterly token (and ultimately annoying) gestures of disapproval, with the reassurance that this disapproval is no threat at all to the friendship.
• The adulteress will keep doing her own thing and eventually Exiled will give up on the futile gestures and hold her peace - probably telling herself that she has made her position sufficiently clear and she’s done beating a dead horse or something. (And in reality the justification doesn’t matter, the point is for Exiled to give up while staying “supportive”.)

And if the adulterers decide to end their respective marriages and marry each other, Exiled will be back asking if she should attend the wedding.

 

[wildflr8]

Sin is sin no matter how we make excuses to cover our behavior. Frankly and to be judgemental, your friend needs get on her knees and pray for personal sancity and self control. Self control is hard to do when we are in the state of sin.
Boy do I sound self important, I’ll pray for her.

 

[lerapt78]

Exiled, from what you wrote I suspect she is already having an affair - if not yet a physical one, then at least one of the heart and mind, in which case it probably won’t be long before it becomes physical. If this man is just a “friend” to her, and it’s all innocent, there’s no reason she can’t enjoy her friendship with him in the company of her husband and his wife.

Perhaps I’m just the overly possessive sort, but I don’t blame her husband for being uncomfortable with the situation. If one is married, one has to be very careful in having friends of the opposite sex. This doesn’t mean that she *can’t *have a male friend (or vice versa), but that there should be no secrecy or sneaking around surrounding said friendship.

As her friend, there is nothing wrong in telling her that you don’t approve of her interactions (assuming they only meet when they are without their spouses) and that by meeting him you feel as though you’re being complicit in a dangerous situation. Out of respect for her husband (whom I assume is *also *your friend), you can decline the meeting. If she respects *you *as a friend, she won’t push it.

Again, my $.02 assumes that they are always meeting alone - is that correct?

 

[Little_Mary]

I think you need to tell her to call you when this affair is OVER. Until then, you are not available. This is called tough love. Your staying involved with her while she continues to live in delusion isn’t helpful.

**All this ‘real friendships last forever’ stuff is baloney. Real friendships last while people show respect for each other. **When that changes, the friendship wanes. There is a season for everything…

I hope things turn around for your friend. But you cannot make her choices for her and you cannot fix her. The Lord used her family to bring you to the church, they didn’t do it on their own. I know this is hard but it is SHE who is making this mess, no one else.

It’s not baloney and your own statement confirms that. If someone no longer respects you, then you never had them as a friend to begin with. I know of what I speak, from personal experience.

 

[Little_Mary]

That’s the rub now, though. I’ve been doing all that gentle stuff, but she’s adamant. Her husband is already concerned, and the truth is, I’ve heard her say many things about this other guy that would freak me out if I were her husband. I’m sure she’s telling him that she has no feelings for the guy, but I know her better than that. She trying to convince herself that it’s all on the up and up. One of these days, when she’s in another one of her breakdowns because of her life situation, I think this guy is going to swoop in and THAT is when something is going to happen.
To set me up to meet him infuriated me. I don’t want to be dragged into this soap opera, but she is the friend who brought me into the Church, and he whole family has been another family to me.

I said nothing about gentle. Tell her firmly and in no uncertain terms that you will always be there for her no matter what, but you in no way agree with her plans.

Another poster mentioned tough love. It may be that you have to tell her not to contact you about this stuff, but do not stop being her friend. I assure you, there will come a day when she will need you. Things like this always end, and they rarely, if ever, end well. She may wake up one day and exclaim, “What was I thinking??”

 

[PatriceA]

I think you need to tell her to call you when this affair is OVER. Until then, you are not available. This is called tough love. Your staying involved with her while she continues to live in delusion isn’t helpful.

All this ‘real friendships last forever’ stuff is baloney. Real friendships last while people show respect for each other. When that changes, the friendship wanes. There is a season for everything…

I hope things turn around for your friend. But you cannot make her choices for her and you cannot fix her. The Lord used her family to bring you to the church, they didn’t do it on their own. I know this is hard but it is SHE who is making this mess, no one else.

I agree with this. The OP’s friend didn’t respect the friendship very much if she had to deceive the OP to meet this male “friend” after the OP explicited said she didn’t want to hear about the friendship ever again. Deceit is not respectful of the other person or the friendship.

That doesn’t mean you have to turn your back on the friendship forever, I’d leave the window open a crack. But this friend is going down a hard long road, and jeopardizing her marriage and her family in the process. That’s not a journey, as a good friend, I could travel together even if its my oldest and dearest friend. But I’d be waiting back at the wrong turn with open arms for my friend to come back to her senses.

 

[lerapt78]

One other thing, OP. It seems obvious by her wanting you to meet her friend that she is seeking your approval of him. That, if you could only see what a “nice guy” he is, you would support her relationship with him. She may be feeling guilty and looking for validation of her actions.

 

[newf]

It’s not baloney and your own statement confirms that. If someone no longer respects you, then you never had them as a friend to begin with. I know of what I speak, from personal experience.

I disagree. You can have a true friendship for a long time or a short time. Just because a friendship falls apart does not mean it was never true.

OTOH, you can have friendships that last a lifetime that really aren’t worth much.

The whole point of mentioning this is that you seem to imply that if it is a ‘true friendship’, you have to tolerate all kinds of disrespectful behavior, otherwise your friendship wasn’t a true one. And I just disagree on this point.

 

[Little_Mary]

I disagree. You can have a true friendship for a long time or a short time. Just because a friendship falls apart does not mean it was never true.

OTOH, you can have friendships that last a lifetime that really aren’t worth much.

The whole point of mentioning this is that you seem to imply that if it is a ‘true friendship’, you have to tolerate all kinds of disrespectful behavior, otherwise your friendship wasn’t a true one. And I just disagree on this point.

No, that is not at all what I was implying. If it is a “true friendship” there would not BE any disrespectful behavior to be tolerated. If there is, then it’s time to walk away.

To reiterate, I do not believe that one must ‘tolerate all kinds of disrespectful behavior’ to maintain a friendship. If that is what my post sounded like to you, then did not word it very well.

Peace

 

[dedo]

I agree with being firm with your friend and refusing to “meet” the object of her affection.

What intrigues me about this thread is: Why do people fall into this sort of trap, and how can you protect yourself from a similar mistake?

It seems like most adulteries come from a “slippery slope” of progressive self-delusion. How do you know when “friendship” with the opposite sex has gone too far?

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree with being firm with your friend and refusing to “meet” the object of her affection.

What intrigues me about this thread is: Why do people fall into this sort of trap, and how can you protect yourself from a similar mistake?

It seems like most adulteries come from a “slippery slope” of progressive self-delusion. How do you know when “friendship” with the opposite sex has gone too far?

You don’t, sometimes. You have to have boundaries on yourself and the situations you let yourself into that are stricter than you think you probably need, but you also have to realize that hubris is self-manufactured.

1.) You have keep in touch with a few close friends with a moral compass whom you can trust, and you don’t hide things from them.

2.) When these friends suggest that you’re playing with fire, you listen.

3.) Most of all: You don’t let yourself think that the rules of human nature do not apply to you.

[4. You do not take advice from toadies who encourage you to think moral law is not for you, etc.]

By corallary:
If you find yourself hiding things
If you find yourself telling “white lies”
If you find yourself thinking “they wouldn’t understand: this is different”
If you are the only one telling yourself “yes, but it’s different for me/us because”
If you find yourself saying “his wife/her husband wouldn’t like it, but s/he’s a ______, so I can ignore that”
Find yourself someone to confide in, and don’t hold anything back, because you are on the slippery slope
I think the reason many famous people fall is a) there are more people watching b) the difference in how a famous person is treated can be so bizarre that it takes a level-headed person to remember they have not actually become a different sort of human being and c) they are surrounded by flattering toadies telling them what they think they want to hear. Most of us, though, are probably far too private about our temptations. I know I am.