Advice on a friendship...adultery(?)

[lerapt78]

It seems like most adulteries come from a “slippery slope” of progressive self-delusion. How do you know when “friendship” with the opposite sex has gone too far?

My opinion: I believe you know it’s gone “too far” when you begin to have romantic thoughts about the person, or begin to envision what your life would be like with that person (in a positive way). Those are the cues that let you know it’s time to back off (unless you both are single of course, and you want to pursue the relationship).

 

[Blue_Horizon]

If she goes through with the affair, do you want everyone else in your church saying you’re her friend?

For the love of God - if you really knew what you were saying I do not think you would write this.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Hi all,
My oldest and very dear friend has a tough life. Some of that toughness is from poor decision making, some has been by circumstances beyond her control. She’s exhausted and has very few…happy, carefree days, or even moments.
She met a man and now has a “friend” that is “in love” with her, and he’s made no bones about telling her. He is married, too, and not a Catholic in any way. As well as I know her, I am certain that she has feelings for him, too, but she denies it vehemently. For over a year now (we don’t live near each other) when the subject has come up, I tell her how opposed I am to her continuing this friendship and that I think she is in danger of finding herself doing something that she will regret. She doesn’t know it, but her husband called me last spring to see if I could help convince her to dump this friend. He’s uncomfortable, too. She has refused, and I finally had to tell her not to talk to me about him anymore; that I didn’t want to hear it.
Anyway, I spent my summer vacation in my hometown and went to visit my friend. She set it up that this friend would come over to meet me while visiting. I am so upset that she seems to be trying to drag me back into this nonsense that I haven’t spoken to her since.
So #1-I’m still upset about the relationship, but I think I’ve done all I can to convince her that it is wrong, and she’s still just fooling herself. She’s not going to change her mind based on anything I say.
And #2-and here is what I hope for some help on. What, if anything, do I do or say, about her setting up this meeting? I hate the word “disrespected”, but that pretty much sums up how I feel about this. Do I say “him or me”, which seems like a childish and petty response, but I just don’t know.

Any ideas? TIA!

I do not think it is your role, as a close friend, to convince her of anything - you are not the messiah who needs to save anyone but yourself. As a friend it is of course excellent that you are strongly pointing out your misgivings and providng reasons for this - even in the face of possible rejection.

She is clearly not rational, it will end in tears, and then she really will need a friend to help her. That she wants you to meet the guy means she respects your view enough to, delusionally, try and convince you she is right.

However, while you cannot convince her, you must act in such a way that she cannot delude herself that you will go along with this crazy course of action even passively.

Some ideas: (stoop to conquer)

• say yes, you will meet the guy if her husband is also invited to be present for the same reason. If she says this is crazy or not on then there is your queue for saying you hold the same view as her husband would.
• make your view clear: if you manipulate me into meeting this guy (and normalising your behaviour), which I object to, then I am still your friend but I also need to protect myself, especially my sense of self-respect before your husband and children - I will no longer support/associate with you as much as I would otherwise like until you let the guy go.
• If you really want to bring things to a crisis (it may be about time if you cannot take it anymore) then tell her that if she purposely brings the guy into your face then that is crossing the “confessional line” and, so far as you are concerned, flaunting and making things “public.” You would feel morally obligated to mention this to her husband for both their sakes. If she reads the riot act to you then this is your queue to fade into the background - but do keep a maintenance contact if this does happen. She will want you eventually if she is even half a friend when this fling fails.

 

[dedo]

Thanks Easter Joy and lerapt78:

So the keys to protect yourself are:

1. Set boundaries.
2. Consider who you associate with and listen to people you respect. If you lack friends, there is always a priest.
3. Watch your thoughts. Even excessive “non-romantic” thoughts about one person can be the first step in self-delusion because it is a way to “rationalize” the inappropriate affection.
4. Seek God daily and talk to Him.

So for the OP, it seems to me that she should:

1. Set a boundary. That may mean limiting contact if her friend insists on throwing the guy into situations where OP is present.
2. Pray for her friend.
3. Realize that she is not God and avoid the temptation to “manipulate” her friend into changing.
4. Consider wise counsel herself (priest) to avoid being sucked into something toxic.

 

[lerapt78]

Thanks Easter Joy and lerapt78:

So the keys to protect yourself are:

1. Set boundaries.
2. Consider who you associate with and listen to people you respect. If you lack friends, there is always a priest.
3. Watch your thoughts. Even excessive “non-romantic” thoughts about one person can be the first step in self-delusion because it is a way to “rationalize” the inappropriate affection.
4. Seek God daily and talk to Him.

So for the OP, it seems to me that she should:

1. Set a boundary. That may mean limiting contact if her friend insists on throwing the guy into situations where OP is present.
2. Pray for her friend.
3. Realize that she is not God and avoid the temptation to “manipulate” her friend into changing.
4. Consider wise counsel herself (priest) to avoid being sucked into something toxic.

Yes, Dedo. Very good above-mentioned points, with the exception (if I may) of point #4. I really don’t think the OP needs to seek counsel from a priest for this. She is doing nothing wrong herself and in fact appears to have a very clear understanding of who is committing the sin/risk in this case.

I’m trying to be a bit considerate of the priests’ time - they have enough to deal with!

 

[PatriceA]

I do not think it is your role, as a close friend, to convince her of anything - you are not the messiah who needs to save anyone but yourself. As a friend it is of course excellent that you are strongly pointing out your misgivings and providng reasons for this - even in the face of possible rejection.

She is clearly not rational, it will end in tears, and then she really will need a friend to help her. That she wants you to meet the guy means she respects your view enough to, delusionally, try and convince you she is right.

However, while you cannot convince her, you must act in such a way that she cannot delude herself that you will go along with this crazy course of action even passively.

Some ideas: (stoop to conquer)

• say yes, you will meet the guy if her husband is also invited to be present for the same reason. If she says this is crazy or not on then there is your queue for saying you hold the same view as her husband would.
• make your view clear: if you manipulate me into meeting this guy (and normalising your behaviour), which I object to, then I am still your friend but I also need to protect myself, especially my sense of self-respect before your husband and children - I will no longer support/associate with you as much as I would otherwise like until you let the guy go.
• If you really want to bring things to a crisis (it may be about time if you cannot take it anymore) then tell her that if she purposely brings the guy into your face then that is crossing the “confessional line” and, so far as you are concerned, flaunting and making things “public.” You would feel morally obligated to mention this to her husband for both their sakes. If she reads the riot act to you then this is your queue to fade into the background - but do keep a maintenance contact if this does happen. She will want you eventually if she is even half a friend when this fling fails.

All great advice. BUT, from the way I’m reading the OP, the meeting already took place without any warning to the OP. She was duped into meeting the “friend” when she was back home visiting. She wants advice on how she should tell her friend that meeting upset her after she told her friend she didn’t want anything to do with the situation before her visit home.

 

[Christmastwin]

A suggestion from someone who’s been there… remain a friend but steer clear of the drama. It will suck you dry. If that means taking a break and not communicating until she gets it sorted out, so be it. It’s draining and causes resentment to fester. Very unhealthy for you.

Continue to pray for her.

 

[exiled]

You don’t, sometimes. You have to have boundaries on yourself and the situations you let yourself into that are stricter than you think you probably need, but you also have to realize that hubris is self-manufactured.

1.) You have keep in touch with a few close friends with a moral compass whom you can trust, and you don’t hide things from them.

2.) When these friends suggest that you’re playing with fire, you listen.

3.) Most of all: You don’t let yourself think that the rules of human nature do not apply to you.[4. You do not take advice from toadies who encourage you to think moral law is not for you, etc.]

By corallary:
If you find yourself hiding things
If you find yourself telling “white lies”
If you find yourself thinking “they wouldn’t understand: this is different”
If you are the only one telling yourself “yes, but it’s different for me/us because”
If you find yourself saying “his wife/her husband wouldn’t like it, but s/he’s a ______, so I can ignore that”
Find yourself someone to confide in, and don’t hold anything back, because you are on the slippery slope
I think the reason many famous people fall is a) there are more people watching b) the difference in how a famous person is treated can be so bizarre that it takes a level-headed person to remember they have not actually become a different sort of human being and c) they are surrounded by flattering toadies telling them what they think they want to hear. Most of us, though, are probably far too private about our temptations. I know I am.

This is EXACTLY!!! what she says to herself, and what she said to me on first letting me know that she had this friendship! I think you, and Blue Horizons post

I do not think it is your role, as a close friend, to convince her of anything - you are not the messiah who needs to save anyone but yourself. As a friend it is of course excellent that you are strongly pointing out your misgivings and providng reasons for this - even in the face of possible rejection.

She is clearly not rational, it will end in tears, and then she really will need a friend to help her. That she wants you to meet the guy means she respects your view enough to, delusionally, try and convince you she is right.

However, while you cannot convince her, you must act in such a way that she cannot delude herself that you will go along with this crazy course of action even passively.

Some ideas: (stoop to conquer)

• say yes, you will meet the guy if her husband is also invited to be present for the same reason. If she says this is crazy or not on then there is your queue for saying you hold the same view as her husband would.
• make your view clear: if you manipulate me into meeting this guy (and normalising your behaviour), which I object to, then I am still your friend but **I also need to protect myself, especially my sense of self-respect before your husband and children **- I will no longer support/associate with you as much as I would otherwise like until you let the guy go.
• If you really want to bring things to a crisis (it may be about time if you cannot take it anymore) then tell her that if she purposely brings the guy into your face then that is crossing the “confessional line” and, so far as you are concerned, flaunting and making things “public.” You would feel morally obligated to mention this to her husband for both their sakes. If she reads the riot act to you then this is your queue to fade into the background - but do keep a maintenance contact if this does happen. She will want you eventually if she is even half a friend when this fling fails.

really, really help me! Thank you so much!
Just for clarification BH, I was not given a choice to meet this man. I was home on my summer vacation and my friend and I planned an afternoon together. She co-ordinated it with him that he would arrive while I was still there. Boy was I mad! There are few things I could tell about his interaction with her and her children that further upset me, and brought me to this point of walking away. In any case, you guys have given me lots of great points to consider; now, I just have to have the moral certainty to do what I need to do.

 

[exiled]

Yes, Dedo. Very good above-mentioned points, with the exception (if I may) of point #4. I really don’t think the OP needs to seek counsel from a priest for this. She is doing nothing wrong herself and in fact appears to have a very clear understanding of who is committing the sin/risk in this case.

I’m trying to be a bit considerate of the priests’ time - they have enough to deal with!

My friend claims to have gone to the priest with this, and that he said she’s okay to continue the friendship. However, I’d bet that farm that she did not say to him the kinds of things she’s said to me, for instance.
“He’s everything (insert husband’s name) isn’t.”
In one of her many desperate, crying meltdowns about her life, “Little does (insert husband’s name) know that I could walk away from all of this right now into a better life.”

I doubt any solid priest would say okay to this relationship.

 

[lerapt78]

My friend claims to have gone to the priest with this, and that he said she’s okay to continue the friendship. However, I’d bet that farm that she did not say to him the kinds of things she’s said to me, for instance.
“He’s everything (insert husband’s name) isn’t.”
In one of her many desperate, crying meltdowns about her life, “Little does (insert husband’s name) know that I could walk away from all of this right now into a better life.”

I doubt any solid priest would say okay to this relationship.

^^^Of course not. Then he might have said something she didn’t want to hear!

 

[Luvz2travel]

Hi all,
My oldest and very dear friend has a tough life. Some of that toughness is from poor decision making, some has been by circumstances beyond her control. She’s exhausted and has very few…happy, carefree days, or even moments.
She met a man and now has a “friend” that is “in love” with her, and he’s made no bones about telling her. He is married, too, and not a Catholic in any way. As well as I know her, I am certain that she has feelings for him, too, but she denies it vehemently. For over a year now (we don’t live near each other) when the subject has come up, I tell her how opposed I am to her continuing this friendship and that I think she is in danger of finding herself doing something that she will regret. She doesn’t know it, but her husband called me last spring to see if I could help convince her to dump this friend. He’s uncomfortable, too. She has refused, and I finally had to tell her not to talk to me about him anymore; that I didn’t want to hear it.
Anyway, I spent my summer vacation in my hometown and went to visit my friend. She set it up that this friend would come over to meet me while visiting. I am so upset that she seems to be trying to drag me back into this nonsense that I haven’t spoken to her since.
So #1-I’m still upset about the relationship, but I think I’ve done all I can to convince her that it is wrong, and she’s still just fooling herself. She’s not going to change her mind based on anything I say.
And #2-and here is what I hope for some help on. What, if anything, do I do or say, about her setting up this meeting? I hate the word “disrespected”, but that pretty much sums up how I feel about this. Do I say “him or me”, which seems like a childish and petty response, but I just don’t know.

Any ideas? TIA!

From what you say you friend sounds selfish and not very smart.

1. All you can do here is pray for her to realize how wrong she is and stop this behavior.
2. She’s not you’re friend especially when she tries to use you as a cover and drag you into it when you’ve already made your feelings clear. I would end the friendship by saying something to the effect that while you will always treasure the memories of the friendship you feel it’s best to withdraw yourself from this situation because you feel it goes against your principles/beliefs and that you will keep her in your prayers. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Luvz2travel]

I think you need to tell her to call you when this affair is OVER. Until then, you are not available. This is called tough love. Your staying involved with her while she continues to live in delusion isn’t helpful.

Totally agree.

 

[Luvz2travel]

My friend claims to have gone to the priest with this, and that he said she’s okay to continue the friendship. However, I’d bet that farm that she did not say to him the kinds of things she’s said to me, for instance.
“He’s everything (insert husband’s name) isn’t.”
In one of her many desperate, crying meltdowns about her life, “Little does (insert husband’s name) know that I could walk away from all of this right now into a better life.”

I doubt any solid priest would say okay to this relationship.

She sounds like she needs a doctor and phychologist. Will say a prayer for her.

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

Exiled,

This is just my view, It may be that she IS or already has slept with this other guy (and if she has not she is planning on it!). And that is the reason that she refuses to end the “friendship”. She may never tell you the truth expecting you to say something like “that other guy seems to make you happier than your husband.” Just looking for your acceptance of her actions. And the fact that he is also married makes things so much worse. As my Priest once said in a homely – “to sin is bad; to cause someone else to sin is much worse.” Or something to that effect but the point is made. And they both know where their relationship is heading, regardless of what they tell anyone else and if it continues they both will destroy their marriages.

This may come across as mean or even harsh but. As it is now there are no consequences to her actions, as her husband does not know all the facts. And as she refuses to end the “friendship” puts the other guy before her husband, and God. And no one is stepping forward telling her that “you are going down a road that I refuse to be a part of.”

To be friends with someone to support them or help them stay away from sin is great, but when your support / advice / and concern for them is rejected and they continue to drive 60 mph down a deadend street towards a brick wall they will crash and may take you with them.

Sorry if this comes across as angry but I always wonder when people will start to accept responsibility for their own actions. And accept God and the teachings of our savior Jesus. She knows what she is doing and what may (if not already) happen and has no concerns for it.

May God bless and keep you.

Winter

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, Dedo. Very good above-mentioned points, with the exception (if I may) of point #4. I really don’t think the OP needs to seek counsel from a priest for this. She is doing nothing wrong herself and in fact appears to have a very clear understanding of who is committing the sin/risk in this case.

I’m trying to be a bit considerate of the priests’ time - they have enough to deal with!

OTOH, a lot of them much prefer to deal with actual moral and spiritual problems that make a difference in how people’s lives play out, rather than a steady diet of everything else that is their lot to deal with. (Kind of like my mom, who would happily stay up late doing “real” sewing, as a welcome change of pace from mending work and play clothes.)

 

[EasterJoy]

My friend claims to have gone to the priest with this, and that he said she’s okay to continue the friendship. However, I’d bet that farm that she did not say to him the kinds of things she’s said to me, for instance.
“He’s everything (insert husband’s name) isn’t.”
In one of her many desperate, crying meltdowns about her life, “Little does (insert husband’s name) know that I could walk away from all of this right now into a better life.”

I doubt any solid priest would say okay to this relationship.

Bingo…and I hope you said as much to her.

It is a tough situation. As long as giving any degree of approval is not part of the bargain, though, including any requirement that you shut up about the matter, you don’t have a moral imperative to break off the friendship. OTOH, while we have to love everyone, we are not morally required to keep up this particular close friendship or that, either. It is your call.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

This is EXACTLY!!! what she says to herself, and what she said to me on first letting me know that she had this friendship! I think you, and Blue Horizons post

really, really help me! Thank you so much!
Just for clarification BH, I was not given a choice to meet this man. I was home on my summer vacation and my friend and I planned an afternoon together. She co-ordinated it with him that he would arrive while I was still there. Boy was I mad! There are few things I could tell about his interaction with her and her children that further upset me, and brought me to this point of walking away. In any case, you guys have given me lots of great points to consider; now, I just have to have the moral certainty to do what I need to do.

Am glad we’ve been able to help - sorry I didn’t pick up its already happened. I get mad just thinking about it and I am not even involved .