Advice on approach to "abnormal" baptism

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coemgen

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Hi all,

First off, I’m a convert who was welcomed home a couple of years again. So, there is still a lot for me to learn.

Let me explain my situation. My mother and sister (both non-Catholic Christians) called me seeking advice on how to handle a situation. My sister’s sister-in-law considers herself a lesbian and is in a relationship in which she and another woman conceived a child via in vitro. The child has been born and the two women (both consider themselves Catholic) want the child baptized. They have even asked my wife’s husband, who is no longer a practicing Catholic, to be the god father.

I’m being asked for advice as to how I’d approach the situation, and my gut reaction is to tell them to stay as far away from it as possible. My sister is a conservative Baptist with great respect for the Catholic faith. Both her and her husband are in a massively sensitive situation

Does the Church have a stance on a situation like this? Would it be unusual for a priest to perform such a baptism? Any thoughts? I really want to give my sister good advice on this, and use the opportunity as a teaching moment regarding the Church’s teaching.

I hope the description of the situation make sense. Thanks in advance for your advice.

Coemgen
 
WOW! That’s quite a loaded first post! (Welcome aboard, BTW).

Have you posted this to “Ask An Apologist”? They are much more qualified than any of us to answer this one.

I figured out the players and put them in my mental scorecard: Your mom, your sister, and the sister’s sister-in-law who proclaims she is a lesbian with a partner I understand. But your wife’s husband is* you*. You are a practicing Catholic! Did you mean your sister’s husband, aka your brother-in-law?

In any event, the first person to check would be a priest. The women in this relationship need to go see a priest, preferably at the parish where they are registered. There is a class to attend on baptism for the “parents” and often the godparents. The grandmothers can’t call the parish office and ask for it. It has to be one of the parents.

The priest in question would have to believe there’s reasonable hope for the baby to be raised as a Catholic. A child from a 2-mother family, that might be pushing the bounds of “reasonable hope”. If the priest refuses, the odds are good a Catholic baptism will not be permitted.

On the other hand, having seen the antics a couple weeks ago in San Francisco, nothing would surprise me any more. 🤷 If the women find a Catholic priest willing to do this…
 
Yeah, sorry, I was referring to my brother-in-law who was being asked to be a god father. My head was spinning a bit after this question. Just to clarify, I am very much an outsider in this situation that is being asked for advice by my sister.

Thanks for the welcome, by the way!
 
No problem. It made my head spin as well.

As I sit here thinking about it, that’s what, in my opinion, you should tell your sister. Tell her that the Church doesn’t consider lesbian couples “married” or “committed” under any circumstances equalling marriage. Tell her that the parents must give the priest “reasonable hope” that the child will be raised as a Catholic. And tell her one of the parents has to set up the initial meeting for baptismal classes; can’t be the grandparents, can’t be your brother-in-law, can’t be anybody else. And the “parents” can’t just show up with the baby in a gown one fine day, and expect to have it baptized.

There is a chance these women will find a Catholic priest in an extremely liberal parish who will baptize the baby. Your brother-in-law can plead that he is not a practicing Catholic, and therefore is canonically unable to be the godparent.

I feel so sorry for this new little life!!:crying: He or she is going to have a rough way to go in life.
 
coemgen said:
Hi all,

First off, I’m a convert who was welcomed home a couple of years again. So, there is still a lot for me to learn.

Let me explain my situation. My mother and sister (both non-Catholic Christians) called me seeking advice on how to handle a situation. My sister’s sister-in-law considers herself a lesbian and is in a relationship in which she and another woman conceived a child via in vitro. The child has been born and the two women (both consider themselves Catholic) want the child baptized. They have even asked my wife’s husband, who is no longer a practicing Catholic, to be the god father.

I’m being asked for advice as to how I’d approach the situation, and my gut reaction is to tell them to stay as far away from it as possible. My sister is a conservative Baptist with great respect for the Catholic faith. Both her and her husband are in a massively sensitive situation

Does the Church have a stance on a situation like this? Would it be unusual for a priest to perform such a baptism? Any thoughts? I really want to give my sister good advice on this, and use the opportunity as a teaching moment regarding the Church’s teaching.

I hope the description of the situation make sense. Thanks in advance for your advice.

Coemgen
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Generally speaking the situation of a single parent does not prohibit a child from being Baptized. However living in a open homosexual relationship does create a concern for will the child be truly raised in the Catholic Faith. The person asked to be the Godfather does not sound like they qualify. However “My wifes husband” is a bit confusing. I assume that you mistyped that?
 
coemgen said:
My sister’s sister-in-law considers herself a lesbian and is in a relationship in which she and another woman conceived a child via in vitro. The child has been born and the two women (both consider themselves Catholic) want the child baptized. They have even asked my wife’s husband, who is no longer a practicing Catholic, to be the god father.

I’m being asked for advice as to how I’d approach the situation, and my gut reaction is to tell them to stay as far away from it as possible. My sister is a conservative Baptist with great respect for the Catholic faith. Both her and her husband are in a massively sensitive situation

Does the Church have a stance on a situation like this? Would it be unusual for a priest to perform such a baptism? Any thoughts? I really want to give my sister good advice on this, and use the opportunity as a teaching moment regarding the Church’s teaching.
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The parents of a child under the age of reason are expected to demonstrate their commitment to insure that the child receives the sacraments and be instructed in the Catholic faith. At least one of the parents must be a practicing Catholic. I doubt that the lesbian couple cares much at all about what the Church wants or what is properly expected from the godparents. I would hope that the deacon or priest who interviews the parents wanting their babies to be baptized would NOT in this case baptize the child, since it’s obvious the two mothers do not plan on raising him/her according to the teachings of the Church. However, nowadays, far too often the screening is not done well, or the deacons and/or priests may be too liberal.

Godparents are also supposed to be screened, and by some parishes, to attend a Baptism class and to provide a letter from their pastor stating they’re an active Catholic in good standing. But again, some parishes are sadly lax in screening godparents.

I think that IF the baby is going to be baptized, your brother-in-law will probably be ignored if he tries to pass on the teachings of the Church. I suggest that he talk with his own pastor about this situation, though.

The Code of Canon Law lists five requirements for the godparent:
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2Y.HTM

a couple of articles:
catholicherald.com/saunders/01ws/ws011004.htm
catholicdoors.com/faq/qu82.htm
 
I am afraid Quiet 52 is probably right. Unless the couple are in a platonic relationship, they will have a hard time finding a priest who will be willing to baptize the child. I suspect he would risk severe penalties from his bishop if it got out, otherwise, not to mention from God. Godparents have become something of an honorary position in the eyes of the laity lately, but they are supposed to be substitute catechism teachers, if the parents cannot fulfill their duties, so godparents must be strong and knowledgeable in the Faith. A “lukewarm” or barely practicing Catholic should not be an option. Unfortunately, a devout and practicing Catholic would probably not be willing in this situation. If the couple consider themselves Catholic, what is their living situation? I know there are many legally married Catholic who live platonically because they cannot be married in the Faith, so they live platonically so they do not commit mortal sin.
 
I guess I should have updated this situation as it developed. It turns out that the priest that was to baptize the child had a change of heart for whatever reason and the baptism ended up being performed by a Methodist hospital chaplain. While the fact that the priest stood up and said “no” is encouraging to someone who is frightened by blatantly liberal disregard for the church’s teaching, the fact that this child is being brought up in this environment makes me sad. Please pray for this child.
 
Considering that 80% of the babies that our pastor baptizes are born to parents living common law, they could drop by my parish.😦

Honestly, the pastor refuses to interview parents who present for baptism and doesn’t postpone baptism for anyone. I’m on the preparation team and hear the response when we tell parents what the canonical requirements are for godparents - they think we’re nuts and they’ll point blank tell us their godparents don’t fit the bill but they don’t care. And no matter how often I repeat that a Christian witness must be baptized, they don’t seem to get the point that not every ‘Christian’ Church baptizes.

It doesn’t help that the other members of the team have wink-wink, nudge-nudge attitude when it comes to “godparents must be practicing Catholics”. One even said “but we don’t insist on that.”
 
I got a better one for you…one of my good friends was preparing his class for their confirmations. You do not want to know how many parents raised hell when their Mormon, Jehovah Witness, and pagan friends and family were not allowed to be sponsors!
 
If we’re going for oneupmanship 😛 I’ve got an even better one – several couples have presented for baptism and when told that one of the ‘godparents’ had to be Catholic became enraged and accused us of making it up since their other children’s godparents weren’t Catholic. Turns out that the former pastor hadn’t even bothered to ask and he did all the preparation himself.
 
Having the child Baptized means that they would have to promise to raise the child in the Catholic Faith, which means teaching the child that their relationship is intrinsically disordered.

Are they honestly willing to do that?
 
Phemie said:
Considering that 80% of the babies that our pastor baptizes are born to parents living common law, they could drop by my parish.😦

Honestly, the pastor refuses to interview parents who present for baptism and doesn’t postpone baptism for anyone. I’m on the preparation team and hear the response when we tell parents what the canonical requirements are for godparents - they think we’re nuts and they’ll point blank tell us their godparents don’t fit the bill but they don’t care. And no matter how often I repeat that a Christian witness must be baptized, they don’t seem to get the point that not every ‘Christian’ Church baptizes.

It doesn’t help that the other members of the team have wink-wink, nudge-nudge attitude when it comes to “godparents must be practicing Catholics”. One even said “but we don’t insist on that.”
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But you have to insist on that! You cannot intentionally perform a solemn Sacramental Baptism without qualified Godparents. To do so is to perform an illicit Baptism. If the pastor knows that there are no qualified Godparents present he should not perform the Baptism, unless the child is in danger of death.

If this is routine practice in your parish, the Bishop should be advised of it.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
But you have to insist on that! You cannot intentionally perform a solemn Sacramental Baptism without qualified Godparents. To do so is to perform an illicit Baptism. If the pastor knows that there are no qualified Godparents present he should not perform the Baptism, unless the child is in danger of death.

If this is routine practice in your parish, the Bishop should be advised of it.
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Nobody asks anything more than “What’s the godparent’s religion?” If the answer is “Catholic” that’s the end of it.
 
Phemie said:
Nobody asks anything more than “What’s the godparent’s religion?” If the answer is “Catholic” that’s the end of it.
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It is the pastors responsibility to insure that the Godparents are qualified and properly instructed in the responsibilities. Is he allowing this or does he not know it’s happening?
 
We often don’t meet the godparents until 10 minutes before the baptism. Honestly, he doesn’t care. Most of the baptisms he celebrates he knows full well he’ll never see the godparents or the parents in church again except perhaps at Christmas.

He’s been a priest 30+ years and he still didn’t know that the anointing with chrism at Baptism is done on the crown of the head and not on the forehead like at Confirmation. He also wasn’t aware that he had to immerse a baby three times for a valid baptism.
 
Phemie said:
We often don’t meet the godparents until 10 minutes before the baptism. Honestly, he doesn’t care. Most of the baptisms he celebrates he knows full well he’ll never see the godparents or the parents in church again except perhaps at Christmas.

He’s been a priest 30+ years and he still didn’t know that the anointing with chrism at Baptism is done on the crown of the head and not on the forehead like at Confirmation. He also wasn’t aware that he had to immerse a baby three times for a valid baptism.
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How in the name of the wee man does a guy like that get an M. Div.? :confused:
 
jmcrae said:
How in the name of the wee man does a guy like that get an M. Div.? :confused:
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Those of us who work closely with him have been wondering if he’s in the early stages of Alzheimer’s. We’ve already been through that with a pastor 8 years ago.
 
phemie,does not the church also allow Pouring of Living Water upon the heads of babies in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit?,.,Me thinks they do.🙂
 
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