Advice Request: A Protestent's First Mass : Extraordinary or Ordinary?

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ChristopherM

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Hello everyone -

I have come here seeking some advise, This may be in the wrong forum, but please move if nessacary.

to make a long story short my Wife’s Non Catholic Cousin will attend mass with us this sunday as long as my wife’s Grandmother (who was raised Catholic but has stopped practicing) goes with us.

Our Family reguarlly attends Mass in the Extraordinary form every Sunday at one of the Two Vatican Approved Apostolates here in Kansas City ( see: kansascitylatinmass.org)

Now… The delima…

Would it be better for my Protestant Cousin to attend Mass in the Ordinary form where she could follow along in the Vernacular, There are no Solemn or very reverent Ordinary Form Mass’ Near by…

or

is it better for her to experience the Beauty of a Solemn Missa Cantata with Insense, the Aspereges Me , Gregorian Chant etc…

If there are any former protestants out there please I highly value your Opinion.

Thanks

Christopher
 
Hello everyone -

I have come here seeking some advise, This may be in the wrong forum, but please move if nessacary.

to make a long story short my Wife’s Non Catholic Cousin will attend mass with us this sunday as long as my wife’s Grandmother (who was raised Catholic but has stopped practicing) goes with us.

Our Family reguarlly attends Mass in the Extraordinary form every Sunday at one of the Two Vatican Approved Apostolates here in Kansas City ( see: kansascitylatinmass.org)

Now… The delima…

Would it be better for my Protestant Cousin to attend Mass in the Ordinary form where she could follow along in the Vernacular, There are no Solemn or very reverent Ordinary Form Mass’ Near by…

or

is it better for her to experience the Beauty of a Solemn Missa Cantata with Insense, the Aspereges Me , Gregorian Chant etc…

If there are any former protestants out there please I highly value your Opinion.

Thanks

Christopher
I say go TLM but catechize your cousin as much as you can about the history of this Mass. Did you know, for instance, that some sources say that the Gloria was composed just a few decades after the apostolic era? Antiquity, beauty and authenticity…
 
Hi Christopher,

Good question. I am speaking as a former Protestant myself who has also taken a Protestant to the TLM. I simply would not hesitate whatsoever to take a Protestant to a TLM. In fact, I would look at it as a very good thing to do. It sounds also as if your TLM is celebrated with incense and all the “smells and bells” (and perhaps Gregorian chant) which is all the more reason to take her.

I took a Protestant who was used to a low, Foursquare type service to a Dominican rite (pretty much the same as the TLM, or just the TLM in a slightly different form) which was done well and had incense and Gregorian chant and the church looked Catholic. I learned later that she had tears streaming down her face and told me that the liturgy had affected her directly in her spirit. Since then she has gone to a TLM in various places. And its been her wanting to go, I haven’t even had to ask her.

The whole positive aspect to this is that your Protestant cousin will experience the embodiment of the Faith as it has normally been expressed over hundreds of years of the Church’s history. And even though she probably won’t be able to follow along with everything she doesn’t have to. The atmosphere of the sacred and experiencing something quite different than what she is used to will at least give her something to think about and I’m sure it will be an experience she won’t easily forget. And even if she was to make negative comments afterwards I wouldn’t worry about it too much. If she is steeped in “low church” Protestantism she could possibly react that way as she would be confronting something that would go against her Protestant sensibilities. But that can be good as it would indicate to her that Catholicism is a different “beast” than Protestantism and operates on different principles.

God bless. Feel free to post and tell us how it went wherever you decide to take her.
 
My father (who was Protestant) married my mother in the sacristy of church in 1947. My father seldom attended Mass with us until 1970. A reverent NO would be the way to go.
 
Definitely go for the TLM. Let’s face it, most Masses celebrated in the Ordinary form cannot be distinguished from protestant services. A protestant experiencing a NO Mass for the first time would probably think, “there’s nothing different or special going on here…why would I consider this faith?” They’d be judging the Mass strictly by the entertainment value of the music and how rousing the sermon was.
 
If I would have attended a TLM the first time, I would have been “sold” on the spot. The first Mass I attended was a NO, and while it was exciting, it was hard to distinguish from the many protestant services I had attended throughout my life. Give them the full glory of the Church: the TLM.
 
Definitely a TLM. A protestant will compare a Catholic mass with a Sunday service from her church experience. Depending on where the protestant is coming from, she is likely to find a Novus Ordo mass lacking by comparison because where the two are similar (sermon and Bible exegesis) the mass will appear inferior. Where the two are different (Eucharistic sacrifice) the Novus Ordo needs more explanation.

On the other hand, it’s hard to compare a protestant service to a TLM (unless she is high Anglican), because in the TLM everything points to the sacrifice at the altar. It’s the central theme. If the TLM is a Missa Cantata or something more solemn, the beauty and majesty will touch a receptive soul in ways beyond mere words.

I personally know three protestants who were received into the Church in the last year through the TLM, and a few more who are on the verge because they feel attracted by the traditional mass of the Catholic Church.
 
It depends a lot on the person, but while I was still protestant, not knowing a thing about The Church, if someone had taken me to a TLM I would’ve thought “Yep, what they say is right, Catholics don’t want anyone to understand what’s going on.” Then again, I probably wouldn’t have had a missal. I didn’t know they existed.

But if it’s not a reverent NO then…I don’t know, I think that even if you’ve never been to a Mass before, you can still tell something feels off about a NO with drums.

If you have a missal for the cousin, I say go for the TLM. Otherwise, if it’s a good, reverent NO, then go for that.
 
Would it be better for my Protestant Cousin to attend Mass in the Ordinary form where she could follow along in the Vernacular, There are no Solemn or very reverent Ordinary Form Mass’ Near by…
NO was devised partly in order to make it easier for Protestants to come back into union with the Church. (That’s why accusations of “Protestantisation”, which you hear occasionally on this forum, are correct but miss the point. Unity is a sufficiently important goal to deserve compromises that we can make, such as the language used or a couple of extra lines following the Lord’s Prayer.)

However the plan seems to have failed. I’d say that if TLM is the rite you personally have confidence in, take your cousin to that Mass.
 
NO was devised partly in order to make it easier for Protestants to come back into union with the Church. (That’s why accusations of “Protestantisation”, which you hear occasionally on this forum, are correct but miss the point. Unity is a sufficiently important goal to deserve compromises that we can make, such as the language used or a couple of extra lines following the Lord’s Prayer.)

However the plan seems to have failed…
Interesting take, if only for its candor, and quite similar to a comment Jean Guitton (a close friend of Paul VI) is supposed to have made.
 
Yes, take the Protestant to the TLM. As a former Evangelical (that was very anti-liturgy), I can tell you that the Traditional liturgy touched my soul when I first encountered it. It actually disturbed me, “why is it so different and so much more reverent?” is what I thought. I forced myself to learn more about the liturgy.

As an aside, I have one Protestant neighbor on my block (the rest are Catholic). He has been invited to two masses. One was a baptism at your typical saccharine suburban parish and the other a confirmation at a charismatic parish. At dinner one evening he confided in me that he cannot understand how anyone could stand to attend mass week in and week out. It drove him crazy, he thought it was boring, disjointed, human centered, banal. This next month I will be inviting him to a TLM, hopefully he will come.
 
I would have said, “Depends. What about a third option- a reverent NO”, but that’s me.
 
I would have said, “Depends. What about a third option- a reverent NO”, but that’s me.
Those are often very hard to find. You walk into a new Church and you don’t know what kind of NO you are going to get. It’s not good to gamble when it’s somone who might have the intentions to convert. With the TLM, it’s a sure thing. Also the poll wording for the NO included “guitar and drum likely.” Can’t possibly be reverant with this combo.
 
Just my humble opinion… I’m a new convert (Easter 2007). I visited a Catholic Mass with a cousin when I was 14 or 15 years old. All was in Latin. I felt like I had entered a “Cult” like atmosphere. It scared me, and I never went back…

At age 43, I decided to visit our local parish and maybe learn something about the Catholic faith. My husband is Catholic, wasn’t practicing, and told me that if he ever did decide to go back
to church, it would be the Catholic church.

Thank God, It was in english! Thank God that the person who sat beside me was showing me how to follow along in the book.

I’m Catholic now! Thanks to all of that and then followed by RCIA!
 
Please post this same question in the non-Catholic religions section of this Board. You are getting an extremely biased response here in the Traditional section.

I was born and raised evangelical Protestant, and so was my husband.
We were extremly active members of some of the best evangelical Protestant churches in the U.S. (Famous evangelicals authors, speakers, and ministry heads, including the head of Campus Crusade for Christ, come from our chuches.)

My first thought is that you should ASK the Protestant which Mass he/she would like to attend with you. Explain–with fairness now, OK?!–the differences, and ASK him/her to choose.

If for some reason you don’t ask, or they tell you to choose for them, here are some things to think about.

If the Protestant is from a mainline denomination, you might be OK taking them to the TLM. It will be familiar to them, just kind of “quaint” because it is in Latin instead of English.

If the Protestant is an evangelical Protestant, you should definitely take them to the NO, provided that it is a “reverent” NO.

Here are my reasons.
  1. Evangelical Protestants are committed to sola Scriptura and the teaching/preaching of the Word of God. If they can’t understand the words, they will be very suspicious of the whole experience, because they won’t KNOW what they are being taught. For all they know, that priest in the scary-looking vestment might be saying All Hail Satan. They want to UNDERSTAND what is goign on. Certainly the Missal will help, but many newbies claim that it is hard to follow.
  2. The evangelical will have a very difficult time with a priest who cannot be heard (silence). They will reject this practice as unBiblical, since the Bible clearly says, “Faith comes by HEARING.”
3… Evangelicals often reject “experiences” and “feelings” and are very suspicious of “experiences” that create “feelings.” They will check it out in detail to make sure that it is “genuine.” One of the posters mentioned a friend who had tears streaming down her face during TLM–notice she she was from a Pentecostal Protestant background, a group that is very much into feelings. But an evangelical Protestant would reject these feelings and concentrate on hearing and understanding the pure Word of God in the Mass. He/she will strive to avoid getting caught up in the “majesty” of the Mass, and claim that it is the same as being impressed at Disneyworld. According to evangelical Protestant teaching, It’s not the feelings, it’s the FACTS and FAITH that make a Christian.
  1. Most evangelical Protestants abhor ritual and teach that it is part of the “works of men” that Christ preached against. Some evangelicals even believe that these rituals were borrowed from pagan rites, and are Satanic or pagan. Evangelical Protestant churches are unadorned and there is no set liturgy.
  2. An evangelical Protestant will be looking for reasons to reject Catholicism as “non-Christian” or “non-Biblical.” Don’t be surprised when they bring their Bible and look up every single thing that happens in the Mass. **A good, reverent NO Mass will surprise the bejeebers out of them! ** Every prayer, every response, even most of the songs, including the Haugen/Haas songs that so many of you despise–almost ALL of these are straight out of the Scriptures, and the evangelical Protestant will RECOGNIZE these Scriptures and be shocked and intrigued! He/she has always assumed that the Catholic Church is un-Biblical, and then they hear for themselves that everything is from the Bible! :bigyikes: That is such an amazing concept for evangelical Protestants! They will probably try to find something in the Mass to pick apart around you, but believe me, they will go home and in secret, start studying Catholicism!
I suppose this could happen in the TLM, but why put the barrier of language up? Let them hear and understand every word of the Mass first.

I still remember the first time my husband and I attended Mass (NO). We were bowled over by the Biblicalness of it. We had expected ritual and Latin, and instead, we got good solid Bible teaching from everything, even the songs.

Many Traditionalists reject “Protestantized” Masses–well, you aren’t Protestant! Put yourself in their shoes. When you go swimming, do you like to jump in all at once, or ease yourself into the unfamiliar water? I would say that most evangelical Protestants would prefer to ease themselves in. There are exceptions, of course, but I believe that I speak for most evangelical Protestants.

Please don’t scare them away by insisting that the only
good Mass is a TLM. That’s a rejection of what the Holy Mother Church teaches, and mark my words–an evangelical Protestant WILL PICK UP ON ANY DISSENTION AMONG CATHOLICS and use it as an excuse to avoid Catholicism.
 
A lot of protestants who come to Mass are looking for something different. They don’t want familiar, that’s why they’re there. As a former evangelical Southern Baptist, I say give them the TLM. Amazing how the Church got converts before the introduction of the NO, never mind that the Church had a lot more converts year in and year out. If I wanted to worship like a protestant, I would have just stayed where I was, it would have been a lot easier.
 
Wow -
Thanks everyone for some really great responses

I guess its time to may my short story a little longer and elaborate on some details.

My Cousin (Today is her Birthday BTW) Is an protestant who mainly got involved in any faith based activity because of her Friends from School, they would invite her and she would go and I think her attraction is the social / Fun aspect of her faith community (Mission Trips, “Bible study”, etc).

They have fed her the usual line of anti-catholic talk ( Why do you pray to mary? Where is THAT in the bible?.. etc…)

Through our talks she was not aware of some of the basic differences such as how the Deuterocanonical Books were removed, and she was not aware Jesus gave the Key’s to Peter.

All in all she seems deeply intrigued but does not want to let it on to her friends that she is even somewhat interested in the Catholic Faith

For her birthday we bought her a NAB version of the bible and a copy of Patrick Madrids “Where is THAT in the bible?”

Now as far as some of the suggestions in this thread I would agree that a Reverent Ordinary Use mass might be the best of both worlds but is not an option for any of the Local Parish’s in the Diocese that I’m Aware of.

All have some sort of hang up or another … here is a link to a post on my blog from back in August lostlambs.blogspot.com/2007/08/liturgical-abuse.html that might give you an idea of the Mass that is prayed at the two closest Ordinary locations.

I will indeed post this in the NON- CATHOLIC section of the Forums and check out the response over here, So far we are leaning toward the Missa Cantata

Thanks again everyone ESPECIALLY those that have converted I really Appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut
 
For her birthday we bought her a NAB version of the bible . . .

. . . So far we are leaning toward the Missa Cantata
Make sure you warn her that the NAB footnotes do not have the approbation of the Church. Some of the footnotes directly contradict Catholic dogmas.

I would highly recommend taking her to a Missa Cantata. My first Traditional Latin Mass was a Missa Cantata celebrated by a newly ordained FSSP priest. Even though I didn’t know much about the mass (I wasn’t even Catholic yet) and had a hard time following along in a missal, I was transfixed by the reverent beauty of the liturgy (I didn’t want it to end).
 
It is important to communicate with your friend to find out where they are in the inquiry process. I also agree that you should not demean the NO, but you should feel free to communicate honestly about both good and bad things that are happening in the church on a practical basis in the Mass and otherwise. Warn that abuses in the church are not the standard of measurement of whether this is the true faith. The standard of judgment should be the faith and doctrine not abuses by sinful men. If the Church is what it claims to be, then we should expect the devil to focus his attack on it using the sinful nature of its members.

As a former evangelical, I was first exposed to the NO Mass and I did like it, but the quality of NOs do vary considerably. I also felt that it was not exactly what I was seeking and it was not very different from many Protestant services.

When I finally had opportunity to attend a TLM, I knew that I had found what I was seeking. It is the sacrifical nature of the Mass that drew me to the Catholic faith and the TLM really hammers home that aspect in a way that the NO does not. I was tired of evangelical hokiness.

If you take your Protestant friend to a TLM, they do need to be prepared a little to understand the nature of the Mass and that everything including the gestures have a meaning often connected to the manner of worship in the Old Testament and in the book of Revelations. You also need to emphasize that they must pray the prayers of the Mass to get the full benefit of it. Additionally, they may need help following the missal initially. It is easy for new folks to get lost.

It is also important to point out that the primary purpose of the Mass itself is worship not catechesis. Other means are necessary for catechesis. Point out that in the early church non-Christans were not even permitted to attend a Mass until they were in the process of converting.

I would recommend the RSV Catholic edition over the NAB. The exception here, would be to recommend the Magnificat magazine. It is a wonderful tool that does of course use the NAB and other translations. The NAB is fine as long as long as it is understood that it is not the most literal translation and the footnotes are not official doctrine. There are many footnote problems in some of the NAB editions.
 
A lot of protestants who come to Mass are looking for something different. They don’t want familiar, that’s why they’re there. As a former evangelical Southern Baptist, I say give them the TLM. Amazing how the Church got converts before the introduction of the NO, never mind that the Church had a lot more converts year in and year out. If I wanted to worship like a protestant, I would have just stayed where I was, it would have been a lot easier.
My gut feel is that many, if not most, Protestants know more about Latin and the Latin Mass than Catholics do.

After all, we owe a great deal of thanks to Agatha Christie for keeping the Latin Mass alive.
 
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