Advice : Restoration of The Latin Mass

[otjm]

I’d say that the vast majority of people go to the Mass that’s most convenient for them or the one they’re most comfortable with. In the same way people tend to compare every little feature about the Mass in their church vs. one that they may be visiting. They’re used to the priests at their church and how the music is done and whatever else. People aren’t big at stepping out of their comfort zones.

Maybe some people don’t go to a Latin Mass because it’s out of their comfort zone. Probably 99% of Catholics have never been exposed to it. Also, put someone who’s never gone to an EF Mass in a Low Mass for the first time and they’re probably completely lost. Put them in a Missa Cantata or High Mass and it may be a different experience.

Also, there’s something to say about the fact that Latin Masses are typically not very well known/advertised and in many cases they also tend to be at strange times. The two local (within 30 minutes) EF masses where I live are at 3 pm. I know of another local church where they’re trying to work toward having an EF mass as well, so I look forward to that.

Also, I think that a big demand for the EF comes from younger Catholics. I think when you find younger people (teens, 20s, 30s, 40s) who are serious about their faith and they discover the EF it’s like unlocking a treasure that they never knew about. It’s where I see a lot of the future growth of the EF coming from.

Given the fact that anyone who is 60 would have been 10 in 1963, I think your statistics are seriously wrong. Anyone over 60 has been to the EF numerous times. And one only has to look around in an OF and realize that a very significant number of the congregation is in that over 60 group.

I have heard repeatedly that the EF tends to be populated with a younger set. It is interesting that those who grew up on the EF are not returning in large numbers. So you are right; if there is to be significant growth in the EF, it is going to have to come from the young.

 

[GangGreen]

Given the fact that anyone who is 60 would have been 10 in 1963, I think your statistics are seriously wrong. Anyone over 60 has been to the EF numerous times. And one only has to look around in an OF and realize that a very significant number of the congregation is in that over 60 group.

I guess the 99% was a bit overstated if you consider that population. However, many of those people probably have very little recollection of the EF. You’re talking about a Mass that many of them haven’t seen in decades and one where they have been quite young when they last saw it. The OF has been their Mass for most of their lives.

 

[Cat]

Given the fact that anyone who is 60 would have been 10 in 1963, I think your statistics are seriously wrong. Anyone over 60 has been to the EF numerous times. And one only has to look around in an OF and realize that a very significant number of the congregation is in that over 60 group.

I have heard repeatedly that the EF tends to be populated with a younger set. It is interesting that those who grew up on the EF are not returning in large numbers. So you are right; if there is to be significant growth in the EF, it is going to have to come from the young.

Referring to the boldface (mine) above–This concerns me. Many of the “young” seek “experiences” and tend to hop from experience to experience, venue to venue, exercise to exercise (yoga, zumba, etc.), entertainment to entertainment, diet to diet, etc. Starbucks is a perfect example. People don’t pay a ridiculous $5.00 just for a mere cup of coffee. They pay for the “Starbucks Experience.”

Yes, there are exceptions. There are those for whom the old things have great appeal, and they find rest in their souls at the Latin Mass.

But I am convinced that most younger people will be enamored with the Latin Mass for a short time, and then grow bored with it and seek to move on to a “new” experience.

 

[VicFerrari]

I sorta wonder why some EF Mass groups want to reinvent the wheel?

At the local parish here that has an EF Mass, they had to do very little to accommodate it. A local guy donated a 1962 Missale. The pastor of the parish called his old seminary and asked about a gorgeous set of altar cards from days past. Someone located them and shipped them to him.

The vestments are the same. Birettas are optional. They gathered up several kneelers to use as a communion rail of sorts. That’s it.

Why does it have to be such a big production?

 

[ProVobis]

And one only has to look around in an OF and realize that a very significant number of the congregation is in that over 60 group.

Very true, especially in the English OF. Does that mean when we all die off, English OF will be dead too? It’s not like whatever young come, they come by themselves. In the 50’s almost all the kids would walk to church where I grew up. Now it appears the parents have to drive and drag them in. One wonders how many would come at all if it weren’t for the obligation.

OTOH, the Spanish OF seems to be much more vibrant with youth. EF’s not so much but most of those who come do travel considerable distance (too).

 

[Silver_Thread]

Probably the most expensive items were the chasubles; I have no idea what happened to then, but 40 years later, they are not around. Were they sold? Most likely not as there was little or no market for them. And they were replaced with the new vestments, which the parishes all paid for,. So if you think that you are going to get a parish which is primarily OF to pay for a small subset which wants fiddle back chasubles, you might possibly find some parishes that will do so; most likely most will not. More likely, you will be invited to either pay for them yourselves, or attend the OF, or use the OF chasubles. An article on Rorate Caeli called into question just how traditional fiddle backs are in any event; so it might be worth looking into.

As to chalices, every priest I have known has their own.

*** to the sacramentary - see the answer above. When one is superseded, most likely it is not retained. No one is to blame for that; it is normal change.

So, you may feel the answer is obvious; but if you are implying that the parish owes this, you are barking up the wrong tree.

It is clear, according to B16, that the of was not abrogated; but the vast majority of the Church operated as if it was; and you cannot fix blame on them. Paul 6tth appeared to think so; JP 2 definitely did, so from the top down, that was pretty much the assumption. So no, the parishes were not in the wrong responding to the change the Vatican put in place. It came from the top, down.

 

[Silver_Thread]

Probably the most expensive items were the chasubles; I have no idea what happened to then, but 40 years later, they are not around. Were they sold? Most likely not as there was little or no market for them. And they were replaced with the new vestments, which the parishes all paid for,. So if you think that you are going to get a parish which is primarily OF to pay for a small subset which wants fiddle back chasubles, you might possibly find some parishes that will do so; most likely most will not. More likely, you will be invited to either pay for them yourselves, or attend the OF, or use the OF chasubles. An article on Rorate Caeli called into question just how traditional fiddle backs are in any event; so it might be worth looking into.

As to chalices, every priest I have known has their own.

*** to the sacramentary - see the answer above. When one is superseded, most likely it is not retained. No one is to blame for that; it is normal change.

So, you may feel the answer is obvious; but if you are implying that the parish owes this, you are barking up the wrong tree.

It is clear, according to B16, that the of was not abrogated; but the vast majority of the Church operated as if it was; and you cannot fix blame on them. Paul 6tth appeared to think so; JP 2 definitely did, so from the top down, that was pretty much the assumption. So no, the parishes were not in the wrong responding to the change the Vatican put in place. It came from the top, down.

I’ve got no problem with that…Let those from the TOP…down pay for it! In spades!

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve got no problem with that…Let those from the TOP…down pay for it! In spades!

And if they say no?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Since I am no historian this may or may not be accurate but in speaking about “missals” from way back being Latin or some other language, seems to me there probably were no missals, since there was no printing press and everything was hand written and most people were illiterate, any comments?

This is one of the reasons that things like Stations of the Cross and religious paintings, icons and sculpture came into such use not to mention stained glass windows.

This is also why bibles were chained in Churches in places, not to keep the bible away from the people but so the people could hear from the bible in Church from someone who could read, if someone stole the bible, it was very hard to replace being hand written and all.

Concerning Latin, not necessarily the Latin Mass, in some programs I went to concerning the Second Vatican Council, it seems that it was conducted using Latin and since some, don’t know how many, of the Bishops did not have a working knowledge of spoken Latin, they did not have a grasp of what was going on since they did not have interpreters whereas the Protestant observers had translaters and in some cases knew more of what was going on than some of the actual participants.

Wasn’t just some of the altar boys not being proficient in Latin.

The Mass, any Mass, is the celebration of the Eucharist instituted at the Last Supper, ever thought that Jesus is feeding us, not to jump from Holy Thursday to Easter Sunday, but to help us get thru our own Good Friday and Holy Saturday?

Ever heard “take up your cross and follow me”?

 

[otjm]

Very true, especially in the English OF. Does that mean when we all die off, English OF will be dead too? It’s not like whatever young come, they come by themselves. In the 50’s almost all the kids would walk to church where I grew up. Now it appears the parents have to drive and drag them in. One wonders how many would come at all if it weren’t for the obligation.

OTOH, the Spanish OF seems to be much more vibrant with youth. EF’s not so much but most of those who come do travel considerable distance (too).

Well, I can look to two places to answer you; Pope Benedict spoke of a “remnant Church” and while the statistics are far lower in most European countries re: Mass attendance, it also applies to some extent to the US. The Pope didn’t say that the Church would die out; but that it will continue to shrink to a much smaller Church than when he was young.

I don’t happen to have the statistics right at hand, but the second point is from CARA; several years ago they did a study of Mass attendance in the US. The group with the largest percentage of attendance was the over 50 group (over 50%); and it fell off to about 18% for the 18 to late 20’s crowd. And while a lot of talk is made about all the young people attending the EF, the EF appears to manage to be about 3% of all the Masses said on a given Sunday. Any way you work the numbers, they are not going to become a majority.

I have attended a Spanish Mass several times in Utah, and they filled up a gym almost to SRO. I would hesitate to say that was indicative of what is happening all over as Utah can be a very isolating experience to anyone who is not LDS, and that may be an incentive to go to Mass.

Or not.

 

[otjm]

I’ve got no problem with that…Let those from the TOP…down pay for it! In spades!

Not sure what you mean by the TOP. But given that the EF is the exception, not the rule, and the vast majority of people attend the OF, I wouldn’t be holding my breath demanding that those who are supporting the OF have some additional duty to support the small minority. Unless, of course, one looks particularly good in blue…

 

[otjm]

I guess the 99% was a bit overstated if you consider that population. However, many of those people probably have very little recollection of the EF. You’re talking about a Mass that many of them haven’t seen in decades and one where they have been quite young when they last saw it. The OF has been their Mass for most of their lives.

I would suggest that rather than guessing, you might ask some people who are over 60; we are not all doddering Alzheimer patients. In fact most of us are not.

I am sure you are not intending to be insulting, And I am not insulted; I just consider the source. It is clear you have no clue. The way to get a clue is to ask questions. You might even get some answers.

 

[ProVobis]

Concerning Latin, not necessarily the Latin Mass, in some programs I went to concerning the Second Vatican Council, it seems that it was conducted using Latin and since some, don’t know how many, of the Bishops did not have a working knowledge of spoken Latin, they did not have a grasp of what was going on since they did not have interpreters whereas the Protestant observers had translaters and in some cases knew more of what was going on than some of the actual participants.

I imagine a lot of issues and small talk were discussed in smaller groups in whatever language they were comfortable in. As was Trent, for that matter. The major points were discussed in Latin for the entire assembly of several thousands, although several Italian words were thrown around. The official documents to be signed were in Latin.

And btw, the old Latin Mass was said before every session I understand. Did they really need translators for that?

 

[Cat]

I would suggest that rather than guessing, you might ask some people who are over 60; we are not all doddering Alzheimer patients. In fact most of us are not.

I am sure you are not intending to be insulting, And I am not insulted; I just consider the source. It is clear you have no clue. The way to get a clue is to ask questions. You might even get some answers.

This is true.

I agree, go ask the older people. But be prepared for some answers that you probably don’t want to hear.

My husband and I are converts to the Catholic Church from Evangelical Protestantism. We have never met an older person (over 60) who has good things to say about the Latin Mass.

Most of the older people we talk to tell us that they left the Church or considered leaving the Church over the Latin Mass.

I know this is a strong word, but it’s what many of the older ones tell us: They hated it. Some of them are very emotional in expressing just how much they hated it.

They do NOT want it to come back. They like the “modern” music and hymns, and do NOT want Latin chant to come back as the norm.

They are happy enough to have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament in Latin, and to sing occasional Latin hymns and responses in the Mass. But they love the OF Mass and don’t want the EF Mass to become the norm.



Go ask for yourself.

Keep in mind that these older Catholics are the ones who stuck with the Catholic Church during all the upheaval of Vatican II. So these people are worth listening to. They aren’t quitters who walked away, and now are coming back and wanting everything to be just like it was when they were little kids. These are the people who have been weathering the storms for the last 40 years, teaching CCD, giving monies to support all the many good things that the Church does in the world, and quietly praying Rosaries, Novenas, etc.

So we’re talking “salt of the earth.” They are worth listening to and their opinions deserve a lot of study and respect. If they are not leaping on the Latin Mass bandwagon, it’s worth figuring out why and heeding their advice.

 

[paperwight66]

Well said, Cat.

 

[ProVobis]

They do NOT want it to come back. They like the “modern” music and hymns…

Sure, that’s why they sing and respond so little, look bored or asleep through the readings, and leave right after communion. You think they could take another few minutes of it or go across town to another church if they don’t like the priest’s accent, which they complain about? I see the looks on their faces. They know the obligation is there, yet they need the handshake of peace; but that’s about it. If I were to ask them something, I’d ask what the readings were all about. You think they’d remember?

Hey, most of us are creatures of habit. We go where we always go on the weekdays and Sundays. I don’t understand why and others need to point to statistics to prove it.

 

[Silver_Thread]

Lets not forget those older folks who stayed and endured the changes as faithful Catholics. They could not envision leaving the Church. I have known many of them who complained but hang on, trusting that God will lead them.
I often wondered what would have happened in my diocese if Summorum Pontificum (?) and the accompanied instructions had been published in the diocesan newspaper and all could read it for themselves.? Many older Catholics do not use computers and rely on what they hear from the pulpit. (There’s a happy thought.) The very fact that 9o% of the changes attributed to Vatican II were not envisioned by the signers, speaks volumes about the patient endurance of the faithful.

 

[Sirach2]

Silver Thread:

I often wondered what would have happened in my diocese if Summorum Pontificum (?) and the accompanied instructions had been published in the diocesan newspaper and all could read it for themselves.? Many older Catholics do not use computers and rely on what they hear from the pulpit.

From your post here a few months ago, it would appear that this liturgy is not in favor. I recall seeing that when the bishop began this mass initially, there were 400 that came to the first liturgy. The diocese advertised it well, not only in the newspaper that every Catholic in the diocese receives, but also in parish bulletins. So how do you suppose the attendance for an entire diocese, now being only 35-60 persons, reflects a strong desire of older Catholics to return to the latin mass?

Update on Latin Mass at Holy Family Latrobe, Pa.: Attendance has slowed during the past weeks of Summer. Various reasons I’m sure, not to mention the 2:00 p.m. stating time! We have regular attendance from 35 to 60. We sure could use more support!

 

[GangGreen]

Questions.

Cat:

Most of the older people we talk to tell us that they left the Church or considered leaving the Church over the Latin Mass.

Keep in mind that these older Catholics are the ones who stuck with the Catholic Church during all the upheaval of Vatican II. So these people are worth listening to.

Is this not a contradiction? They wanted to or did leave because of the Latin Mass which was the Mass that was there in that exact form for 400 years (plus many many more years where it was the standard language in similar/other forms). Yet, they also endured through Vatican II changes. Is this not because they got the changes that they desired? Had there never been a change in the Mass would they have been the ones who left instead of the others?

They aren’t quitters who walked away, and now are coming back and wanting everything to be just like it was when they were little kids.

And again, we are calling the people who loved the Latin Mass and walked away from the Church quitters. Yet the people in the first group said they would have (or even did) left over the Latin Mass which was the Mass for hundreds of years before these changes. So why are the second group quitters but the first not?

If you tell me that these people hated the change and then stayed, I could agree. However, they were part of the driving force for the change. So of course they stayed.

Anyway, I know of enough Catholics who are in their early 60s who don’t remember all that much about the old Mass except that it was in Latin and the priest didn’t face the people. So I can say with experience that not all people over 60 remember it well. I’m sure those who were in their late teens, 20s or later at the time remember it more. However, saying those over 60 is still too broad. Also, people remember things differently from all those years ago. Bad memories become worse than they were and good memories become the “good old days.” In the same way I’ve seen times where a priest has song short parts old Latin hymns in his homily and older people would sing along. I remember one time they played O Sanctissima at my local church (in English) but I sang it in Latin. An older man in front of me was leaving the church and just stopped dead in his tracks and afterwards turned around and wished me a great day. So to broadly say that older people hate the Latin Mass and the old Latin hymns is not completely true.

Either way, the experiences of one generation may be different than those of another. The generation that was around in the 60s and 70s is different than the one today. What they may have hated, we may love. You may say that young people are fickle and are only after experiences. While I can agree, I can also say that the group of young Catholics who are actually dedicated to their faith are not so much like that. These are the types that are drawn to the EF. In a way I can say look to the OF and see how many younger people under 18 are there and see that very very few actually look like they want to be there. I see less of that in the EF even for the ones who are there with their families. Take from that what you will.

At the end of the day it was Pope Benedict XVI’s desire that both Masses live in harmony with each other. If that is to happen then more priests need to learn the Mass and it should be available in most churches. If the EF is made available everywhere (at a decent time) and it completely fails, then it fails. If it begins to expand and become even more popular and even overtakes the OF, then it does so. If both are sustainable in unison, then that’s what happens. If both get married together to create more of a hybrid Mass, then that’s also what happens. That is not for us to decide.

 

[Sirach2]

GangGreen:

Anyway, I know of enough Catholics who are in their early 60s who don’t remember all that much about the old Mass except that it was in Latin and the priest didn’t face the people. So I can say with experience that not all people over 60 remember it well. …] So to broadly say that older people hate the Latin Mass and the old Latin hymns is not completely true.

I am over 60 and remember it very well. My entire youth through grade 10 was spent in a Catholic School where daily mass was part of our day. Every mass, almost, was celebrated with black vestments, since these were masses for decedents. Let’s not bunch all elderly folks into the dementia fallacy.

At the end of the day it was Pope Benedict XVI’s desire that both Masses live in harmony with each other. If that is to happen then more priests need to learn the Mass and it should be available in most churches.

That’s a strong presumptive word “IF”. Read the post I just submitted in response to Silver Thread, where an entire diocese cannot seem to draw more than 35-60 folks for an EF liturgy. So, no, priests will not need to learn this mass, since there is not the “stable group” that is mandated in S.P. You can dream, yes?