Advice : Restoration of The Latin Mass

[clem456]

In our parish there is a small group of people who would like the Latin Mass. They are a mix of older folks and younger people, mostly families with younger children. I’m not talking about single 20-somethings, they are notably absent from all things church. This group is generally patient and quiet about their wishes.

There also a small group of “spirit of V2” militants who believe the Church needs to bend to a nebulous spirituality that was just newly invented. Interestingly enough, this group is predominantly older, more female, well educated, and more vocal than the traditional folks. They can’t bend the Church’s liturgy to the modern culture fast enough. Gotta have contemporary worship! they say. Obedience and patience are words of servitude for these folks. In their defense, many of them had bad experiences in the Church, or with the faith in their families, when they were younger.

Both of these groups are small minorities. The majority wants common sense stuff…reverent worship in English, they want the tabernacle back in the center of the altar, common sense proper attire for Mass, a mix of ancient and modern music IF it is reverent.

 

[ProVobis]

I often wondered what would have happened in my diocese if Summorum Pontificum (?) and the accompanied instructions had been published in the diocesan newspaper and all could read it for themselves.?

I learned around 2002 that a priest was kind enough to bring the TLM to a local nursing home on a one-time basis. I attended and found a considerable number of people coming to attend. After all they didn’t have to go far. Most went to communion and seemed to be happy and appreciative with the Mass and all. As I was leaving, though, I spotted someone who was taking notes of the event and heard later the event was reported to the bishop. I haven’t seen that priest since.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I believe that most who were around and past a very young age when the Mass was just in Latin remember the Latin Mass quite well and even tho some would like the Mass to be only in Latin many are happy with and grateful that the Mass is in the vernacular.

Not many in the church even heard what the Priest and altar boys were saying since neither wore mics, as far as I remember anyway, and with both the Priest and altar boys backs to the congregation, it made hearing them even harder.

Seems kind of strange to me that God became One of us, to talk directly to us and we keep pushing God away, don’t we get the point that God made the move to us and spoke to us in language that we could understand even if we, at times, did not understand the meaning.

“I call you friends”, personally, I take Jesus at His word and believe Him, I would imagine that when Jesus spoke these words that they were in the vernacular.

Sometimes it seems that we try to hide what is absolutely exquisite in the meaning of the words that we have a chance at understanding behind what is merely pretty in the sounds of words.

A simple heartfelt thank you to God for something that one believes in and hopes for seems to me to be more worship than the Highest of High Masses with the incense, chants, fancy garb and what have you, we sure can get caught up in the externals, can’t we?

Seems as if Jesus even mentioned things like this, didn’t He?

 

[ProVobis]

I believe that most who were around and past a very young age when the Mass was just in Latin remember the Latin Mass quite well and even tho some would like the Mass to be only in Latin many are happy with and grateful that the Mass is in the vernacular.

Latin became a problem AFTER they changed to the vernacular so no one had incentive to study Latin any more. So it’s a sort of a circular argument. If they had followed the wisdom of Veterum Sapientia (which is Latin for “wisdom of the ancient fathers,” btw) a lot of these culture and translation wars we have today could have been avoided IMO.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Latin became a problem AFTER they changed to the vernacular so no one had incentive to study Latin any more. So it’s a sort of a circular argument. If they had followed the wisdom of Veterum Sapientia (which is Latin for “wisdom of the ancient fathers,” btw) a lot of these culture and translation wars we have today could have been avoided IMO.

Any comments about the rest of my post?

I guess that your native language is English, do you ever go to the Mass in the vernacular?

If you do, have you ever heard during Mass where the Priest says, “God have mercy on us ALL”?

Just think, this asking God to have mercy on us all is said around the whole planet to people of many languages in their language, isn’t it something for so many people to hear something such as this and taking it to heart?

I happen to believe that God’s Mercy is much greater than many people believe it to be and much greater than many people want it to be.

Seems that many want mercy for themself and justice for others or at least what they think of these two terms, kind of sad, don’t you think?

 

[Sirach2]

Any comments about the rest of my post?

I guess that your native language is English, do you ever go to the Mass in the vernacular?

If you do, have you ever heard during Mass where the Priest says, “God have mercy on us ALL”?

Just think, this asking God to have mercy on us all is said around the whole planet to people of many languages in their language, isn’t it something for so many people to hear something such as this and taking it to heart?

I happen to believe that God’s Mercy is much greater than many people believe it to be and much greater than many people want it to be.

Seems that many want mercy for themself and justice for others or at least what they think of these two terms, kind of sad, don’t you think?

Tom, your post was perfectly alright, IMO, and I hope you will not feel abashed for sharing your thoughts. Truly, if we consider that Pope John XXIII’s encyclical V.S. was dated several months before he opened the council, it would appear that some would prefer to lock the Church into these older proclamations, as if none of the council’s work is valid or worthy of consideration. Yes, kind of sad.

 

[ProVobis]

I guess that your native language is English, do you ever go to the Mass in the vernacular?

Polish, actually. I go to English, Spanish, Italian Masses though. And Latin too, of course.

I stop reading posts when the first presumption is wrong.

 

[felsguy]

This is true.

I agree, go ask the older people. But be prepared for some answers that you probably don’t want to hear.

My husband and I are converts to the Catholic Church from Evangelical Protestantism. We have never met an older person (over 60) who has good things to say about the Latin Mass.

Most of the older people we talk to tell us that they left the Church or considered leaving the Church over the Latin Mass.

I know this is a strong word, but it’s what many of the older ones tell us: They hated it. Some of them are very emotional in expressing just how much they hated it.

They do NOT want it to come back. They like the “modern” music and hymns, and do NOT want Latin chant to come back as the norm.

They are happy enough to have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament in Latin, and to sing occasional Latin hymns and responses in the Mass. But they love the OF Mass and don’t want the EF Mass to become the norm.



Go ask for yourself.

Keep in mind that these older Catholics are the ones who stuck with the Catholic Church during all the upheaval of Vatican II. So these people are worth listening to. They aren’t quitters who walked away, and now are coming back and wanting everything to be just like it was when they were little kids. These are the people who have been weathering the storms for the last 40 years, teaching CCD, giving monies to support all the many good things that the Church does in the world, and quietly praying Rosaries, Novenas, etc.

So we’re talking “salt of the earth.” They are worth listening to and their opinions deserve a lot of study and respect. If they are not leaping on the Latin Mass bandwagon, it’s worth figuring out why and heeding their advice.

Here are some anecdotal comments from one of those “older (by another 10 years) people,” one who grew up in a Catholic family, lived four doors down from the church of a good sized urban parish, attended Catholic grade school, high school, and college, one who started serving daily Mass at the age of ten and continued serving regularly through his teens, one who memorized all the necessary Latin responses, can still recite some of them, and still has no idea what they mean.

We (we meaning my many Catholic friends and relatives of that era) didn’t hate the (Latin) Mass then and we don’t hate it now. It’s what we had then, it’s what we knew from childhood, we didn’t question it. Many, if not most, of us attended Mass regularly, some occasionally (Ash Wednesday and Palm Sunday always brought out crowds), and some not at all. Over time some fell away, some strode away, but never do I recall it was because of Latin.

What we would “hate” (and again I say we because I am confident that I represent a goodly number of those “older people”) is to lose the benefits we have come to find in celebrating our central act of public worship in our vernacular.

We do remember what the Mass used to be like; we prefer not to go back to that now that we have experienced the alternative.

 

[corsair]

Our small Latin Mass community is now averaging 120 folks each Sunday. The Latin Mass north of us is near 300. Each community is doing very well financially.

The ages are a nice even spectrum. Our Diocese is 350 miles long and about 120 miles wide. There are several monthly Latin Masses scattered throughout as well.

And, yes, each group has purchased all of the items necessary for the Mass.

Members come and go as they do elsewhere. Each time we adjust to accommodate the changes.

If you look at the over 60 group, you’ll find that back in the 1960’s - 70’s most of these folks were the “Hippie” generation. Not all by any means but a majority. I’ll argue that they carried their philosophy into the Catholic views of Vatican II. Certainly many priest did exactly that.

 

[Sirach2]

corsair:

If you look at the** over 60** group, you’ll find that back in the 1960’s - 70’s most of these folks were the “Hippie” generation. Not all by any means but a majority. I’ll argue that they carried their philosophy into the Catholic views of Vatican II. Certainly many priest did exactly that.

That would make the over 60 group only 43 to 53 years old. Do the math. I think Felsguy (older by another ten years = 70) is speaking about an older generation, as was I, who lived during that time frame.

(BTW - your comment about “most” being the hippie generation is rather insulting, and used to prevaricate your point.)

 

[Indyann]

Here are some anecdotal comments from one of those “older (by another 10 years) people,” one who grew up in a Catholic family, lived four doors down from the church of a good sized urban parish, attended Catholic grade school, high school, and college, one who started serving daily Mass at the age of ten and continued serving regularly through his teens, one who memorized all the necessary Latin responses, can still recite some of them, and still has no idea what they mean.

We (we meaning my many Catholic friends and relatives of that era) didn’t hate the (Latin) Mass then and we don’t hate it now. It’s what we had then, it’s what we knew from childhood, we didn’t question it. Many, if not most, of us attended Mass regularly, some occasionally (Ash Wednesday and Palm Sunday always brought out crowds), and some not at all. Over time some fell away, some strode away, but never do I recall it was because of Latin.

What we would “hate” (and again I say we because I am confident that I represent a goodly number of those “older people”) is to lose the benefits we have come to find in celebrating our central act of public worship in our vernacular.

We do remember what the Mass used to be like; we prefer not to go back to that now that we have experienced the alternative.

As someone of the same age group, I think you have expressed my feelings well. I do not now, or have ever hated the Latin Mass. And studying Latin for 4 years does not mean I think in Latin. I still remember quite a bit of it. But English is the language I think in and that is the language I speak to God. Having said that, I do wish that the parishes around here would “go back” to some of the older hymns. I really do not like most of the 70’s hymns.

 

[Cat]

As someone of the same age group, I think you have expressed my feelings well. I do not now, or have ever hated the Latin Mass. And studying Latin for 4 years does not mean I think in Latin. I still remember quite a bit of it. But English is the language I think in and that is the language I speak to God. Having said that, I do wish that the parishes around here would “go back” to some of the older hymns. I really do not like most of the 70’s hymns.

I think that OF parishes are wise when they use a variety of music in their Masses, including ancient hymns (including Latin), the traditional hymns (often used in Protestant churches as well; e.g., Holy God We Praise Thy Name and Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee), and the modern hymns (especially the ones that are actually written to be sung by a group rather than a soloist). I also like it when parishes use what I call “children’s hymns”, the simpler hymns that children find appealing, like “Jesus Loves Me.”

I would like to see more anthems/solos in the Mass, and I would like these pieces to be the best of the classical, traditional, and recently-written compositions of all styles, including contemporary praise (e.g., Sandy Patti pieces like “Via Dolorosa” and "We Shall Behold Him.).

I’ve heard various arguments about this from members on CAF, who claim that there is no provision in the rubrics for a “Communion meditation.” Well, the music ministers in our dioceses don’t seem to interpret the rubrics that way, so I tend to trust those who are actually employed to know and carry out the rubrics rather than people that I don’t even know. However, most of the parishes I’m involved with still don’t have any kind of Communion Meditation on a regular basis.

Also, there is always the prelude (not used during Advent and Lent, of course), which could be used for a good solo or anthem, either vocal or instrumental.

I think that Catholics would be encouraged and uplifted by some really GOOD music presented by good musicians rather than just congregational hymns. I see no harm and much good in having GOOD music in the Catholic Church, rather than letting the Protestants have all the good music.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Polish, actually. I go to English, Spanish, Italian Masses though. And Latin too, of course.

I stop reading posts when the first presumption is wrong.

What is my “first presumption”?

 

[GangGreen]

I do like some of the newer hymns that you hear in OF Masses. However, to me they just pale in comparison to the older stuff. Even non-chant Latin hymns were just better. Those older hymns were written with a different mind set than the easy to digest stuff of the post-70s era. Much more theological in nature. It’s a shame to practically never hear these amazing works anymore. Then when we get English translations, they are so far off that it just doesn’t work. Ever hear Adoro Te Devote in the English translation used in the Word and Song book? Man.

Sometimes it has less to do with language and more to do with how things are written.

 

[ProVobis]

Sometimes it has less to do with language and more to do with how things are written.

As a practical matter, it would actually be cheaper if Jubilate Deo were used by all parishes. As it is, parishes have to pay for hymnals and other copyrighted material, some of it in different languages and much of which is/are barely used.

 

[Rich_C]

That would make the over 60 group only 43 to 53 years old. Do the math.

People who were college age when the Woodstock (Three Days of Peace and Music) festival occured would be 62-66 years old today. Those who were in the same age bracket when the Kent State Massacre occured would be at least 60 today.

But at any rate a lot of great Americans were part of that generation and I wouldn’t want to disparage them. Most of the new ideas of that generation have been toxic but I don’t want to generalize.

 

[Sirach2]

People who were college age when the Woodstock (Three Days of Peace and Music) festival occured would be 62-66 years old today. Those who were in the same age bracket when the Kent State Massacre occured would be at least 60 today.

But at any rate a lot of great Americans were part of that generation and I wouldn’t want to disparage them. Most of the new ideas of that generation have been toxic but I don’t want to generalize.

Yes, occurring in 1970. However, you need to remember that these folks did not live long enough to have attended Catholic school for 12 years and attend daily mass. By the time the 70’s arrived, the changes were already occurring in the Mass as a result of the Council.

Felsguy and I were speaking about a period prior to this, where we actually experienced the fulllness of the TLM and all of its problems. I would say the birth years were 1935-1946 to have gone all 12 years in Catholic school. Those born in 1946 would be entering school at age 7 in 1953. Add 12 years brings you to 1965, when there would no longer be an opportunity to attend the TLM as it had existed prior to that.

 

[felsguy]

If you look at the over 60 group, you’ll find that back in the 1960’s - 70’s most of these folks were the “Hippie” generation. Not all by any means but a majority. I’ll argue that they carried their philosophy into the Catholic views of Vatican II. Certainly many priest did exactly that.

Oh lordy, now we were all hippies!!!



If I laugh any harder the tears will soak up my tie-dyed t-shirt and rust my peace symbol necklace

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

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[Indyann]

Oh lordy, now we were all hippies!!!



If I laugh any harder the tears will soak up my tie-dyed t-shirt and rust my peace symbol necklace

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...ads/2013/11/A-Grateful-Dead-fan-enjoy-002.jpg

.

Well, I am hippier now than I was back then. But am trying to eat healthier to be less hippie

 

[Sirach2]

Well, I am hippier now than I was back then. But am trying to eat healthier to be less hippie

So good a pun to lighten up this thread. Thanks Indyann!