Advice : Restoration of The Latin Mass

[GangGreen]

If you look at the over 60 group, you’ll find that back in the 1960’s - 70’s most of these folks were the “Hippie” generation. Not all by any means but a majority. I’ll argue that they carried their philosophy into the Catholic views of Vatican II. Certainly many priest did exactly that.

Well they were all part of the “Hippie generation.” Whether they were actually Hippies is another story . Although, it is not beyond reason to say that the social and political climate of that time period affected the changes in the Church as well as people’s attitudes on the “traditional” aspects of society.

 

[felsguy]

Well they were all part of the “Hippie generation.” Whether they were actually Hippies is another story .

Ah, that makes it nice and easy. We can just categorize everyone now by a subculture of the era in which they lived. Let’s see, I’m guessing the would make you a Me, Me, too young to be a Punk but too old to be a Rapper. Not implying anything negative about you here, just following the formula.

Although, it is not beyond reason to say that the social and political climate of that time period affected the changes in the Church as well as people’s attitudes on the “traditional” aspects of society.

Hmmm, do you suppose that might be applicable to any other era, say the 1500s or the 2000s?

 

[felsguy]

Well they were all part of the “Hippie generation.” Whether they were actually Hippies is another story . Although, it is not beyond reason to say that the social and political climate of that time period affected the changes in the Church as well as people’s attitudes on the “traditional” aspects of society.

Okay, I’ve had my fun at your expense over the hippie remarks but the more I think about it the more I think you are on to something.

In my opinion the hippie movement and the liturgical scene in the late 60’s and early 70’s were very dissimilar in one way but very similar in another. The first with its new culture of sexual immorality and illicit drug use was a deliberate drastic rejection of and replacement of a values system held almost universally for decades if not centuries, while the adherents of the Mass in what is now known as the OF however in no way intended to or did in fact reject or replace the core beliefs about the Eucharist, doctrine and dogma likewise held for centuries.

If we set aside morality and doctrine for a moment and look at externals or peripherals, I think we can find the two “movements” were indeed very similar (the point your post helped me realize.) What was so irritating to so many of my generation about those hippies? Long hair and outlandish clothing, length of hair and wardrobe style, two things so innocuous in themselves but so inflammatory because they were so foreign, so different, so unthinkable and unsettling to the previous generations. Likewise what about the OF seemed to be so irritating, yes even so inflammatory, to so many? Again IMO, the new language and the new physical arrangements in which the liturgy is celebrated, things which changed periodically over the past, but not necessarily in recent memory, and thus were so foreign, so different, so unthinkable and unsettling to so many.

So then, what does this have to do with the “restoration of the Latin Mass”? I personally doubt that the “restoration” is even possible and for me it is not desirable. What I do believe is very possible and what I do advocate is that we all should work for the acceptance of long hair and short hair, retro and mod clothing styles, Latin and English, *ad orientem *and versus populum. In other words, as those hippies said, “Love, harmony, and peace, brother” or if you prefer, “pax tecum.”

 

[otjm]

Our small Latin Mass community is now averaging 120 folks each Sunday. The Latin Mass north of us is near 300. Each community is doing very well financially.

The ages are a nice even spectrum. Our Diocese is 350 miles long and about 120 miles wide. There are several monthly Latin Masses scattered throughout as well.

And, yes, each group has purchased all of the items necessary for the Mass.

Members come and go as they do elsewhere. Each time we adjust to accommodate the changes.

If you look at the over 60 group, you’ll find that back in the 1960’s - 70’s most of these folks were the “Hippie” generation. Not all by any means but a majority. I’ll argue that they carried their philosophy into the Catholic views of Vatican II. Certainly many priest did exactly that.

You seem to be very well versed in hyperbole, or somewhat short on research.

There is an old joke - if you remember the 60’s, you weren’t really there. The truth of the matter is that the majority of people were not hippies, were not smoking dope or shooting up heroin (and that includes those who were in 'Nam). In every college and university there were those who favored long hair and tie dye; but they were a minority.

So no, we are not Alzheimer’s patients, and we were not drugged out in the 60’s. To be in the “hippie” generation simply means that you were of a certain age demographic; not that you participated in either activities or thought processes that would have actually qualified you as a “hippie”. All, of a certain age bracket, were part of the “hippie” generation because it was a generational thing - not because a large majority, or a majority, or a large minority were hippies. a small minority were; and because they were seen as news worth, the generation was tagged with the moniker.

You really need to educate yourself before you fire those salvos; a bit too much “Ready! Fire! Aim!”

 

[otjm]

I do like some of the newer hymns that you hear in OF Masses. However, to me they just pale in comparison to the older stuff. Even non-chant Latin hymns were just better. Those older hymns were written with a different mind set than the easy to digest stuff of the post-70s era. Much more theological in nature. It’s a shame to practically never hear these amazing works anymore. Then when we get English translations, they are so far off that it just doesn’t work. Ever hear Adoro Te Devote in the English translation used in the Word and Song book? Man.

Sometimes it has less to do with language and more to do with how things are written.

Older stuff was "more theological?

The next time you go to church, go a bit early, take the hymnal, and thumb through the pages. As you do, pause and look at the bottom of each hymn; I think you might be surprised how many of them show they are based on passages from Old and New Testament.

But then, maybe that is not theological enough for you? Or is it simply a lack of familiarity with enough of the Old and new Testament that you do not recognize what you are singing?

 

[tradcathconvert]

I would like to see more anthems/solos in the Mass

I agree with Cat about that. Although I am not sure how it would work in the EF, for the times I attend the OF that is something very much worth hearing during the Eucharistic celebration.

 

[GangGreen]

Older stuff was "more theological?

The next time you go to church, go a bit early, take the hymnal, and thumb through the pages. As you do, pause and look at the bottom of each hymn; I think you might be surprised how many of them show they are based on passages from Old and New Testament.

But then, maybe that is not theological enough for you? Or is it simply a lack of familiarity with enough of the Old and new Testament that you do not recognize what you are singing?

Just because they take a line or two out of the Bible doesn’t make it an amazing work of theology. Most of the hymns in the hymnal these days are made in an easy to digest form. They take a few lines from certain passages or psalms and make a song out of them. They aren’t “deep” so to say. Find me a post-1970s hymn that comes close to Pange Lingua and I’ll be shocked.

Tell, tongue, the mystery of the glorious Body and of the precious Blood, which, for the price of the world, the fruit of a noble Womb,the King of the Nations poured forth. Given to us, born for us, from the untouched Virgin, and dwelt in the world after the seed of the Word had been scattered. His inhabiting ended the delays with wonderful order. On the night of the Last Supper, reclining with His brethren, once the Law had been fully observed with the prescribed foods, as food to the crowd of Twelve He gives Himself with His hands. The Word as Flesh makes true bread into flesh by a word and the wine becomes the Blood of Christ. And if sense is deficient to strengthen a sincere heart
Faith alone suffices. Therefore, the great Sacrament let us reverence, prostrate: and let the old Covenant give way to a new rite. Let faith stand forth as substitute for defect of the senses. To Begetter and Begotten be praise and jubilation, health, honour, strength also and blessing. To the One who proceeds from Both be praise as well. Amen, Alleluia.

But I know… people prefer On Eagle’s Wings and Here I Am, Lord.

Ah, that makes it nice and easy. We can just categorize everyone now by a subculture of the era in which they lived. Let’s see, I’m guessing the would make you a Me, Me, too young to be a Punk but too old to be a Rapper. Not implying anything negative about you here, just following the formula.

I know this is in jest, but the hippies just kind of defined the era. It doesn’t mean that everyone was one or that even most people were. However, society was greatly (and still is in many ways) influenced by that subculture.

Hmmm, do you suppose that might be applicable to any other era, say the 1500s or the 2000s?

Possibly.

 

[Sirach2]

GangGreen:

Find me a post-1970s hymn that comes close to Pange Lingua and I’ll be shocked.
But I know… people prefer On Eagle’s Wings and Here I Am, Lord.

My parish just had Vespers and Benediction to close adoration on the Feast of Christ the King … and yes, the choir sang Pange Lingua. This is the typical use of that hymn, and not one that you would hear any given Sunday during mass, so I beg to differ with you on that. We also sing it every Holy Thursday as the priest processes with the Monstrance to the altar of repose.

Similarly, last year I heard a choir sing Ave Verum Corpus by Mozart on Palm Sunday, but this is another hymn that one would not be appropriate for a Sunday in Ordinary Time.

 

[Cat]

Just because they take a line or two out of the Bible doesn’t make it an amazing work of theology. Most of the hymns in the hymnal these days are made in an easy to digest form. They take a few lines from certain passages or psalms and make a song out of them. They aren’t “deep” so to say. Find me a post-1970s hymn that comes close to Pange Lingua and I’ll be shocked.

There is nothing wrong with hymns that are “easy to digest.”

Sometimes “simple” is also “profound.”

E.g., “Jesus loves me, this I know.”

Think about this for a long minute. Many people DON’T know that Jesus loves them. There are threads on CAF from people who are convinced that God doesn’t love them anymore or even hates them.

And remember that Jesus is GOD, and yet, He loves me. That’s about as deep as you can get.

Perhaps you prefer that this great truth be surrounded by older English language, thees, thous, or even Latin. That’s fine. But there are plenty of people that find it difficult to get through the older English, the thees and thous, and the Latin, and so they utterly miss the message that “Jesus loves me.” Keep in mind that the average reading level in the United States is 6th grade.

Some people think that it’s better for us to use “big words” in order to lift the “ignorant” out of their ignorance. I don’t agree. The Bible says, "precept upon precept. " A wise mother doesn’t begin reading Shakespeare to her baby. She begins with “Goodnight Moon” and other classic books that are age-appropriate. As the child masters these books and gains “readiness,” she moves on to more advanced reading material. I see nothing wrong with using some simpler hymns in the Mass, as there are many who are not ready for the “deep stuff.”

I do think that some deep hymns should be used as well, for the sake of those who are ready for them. As I said in an earlier post, a variety of hymns from all eras and genres is ideal for any Mass.

But I know… people prefer On Eagle’s Wings and Here I Am, Lord.

All of us have different experiences, and there are many of us for whom these hymns have deep meaning. My husband and I were challenged by the Holy Spirit through “Here I Am, Lord,” to leave Protestantism and come into the Catholic Church. Just because YOU aren’t affected positively by these hymns doesn’t mean that others aren’t.

I know this is in jest, but the hippies just kind of defined the era. It doesn’t mean that everyone was one or that even most people were. However, society was greatly (and still is in many ways) influenced by that subculture.

Yes, the “hippies” influenced fashion, decor (flower power!), hair styles, etc., and still do–bell bottoms are back in again (or at least they were last year).

But there were plenty of other influences, too, from that complex era. I would say that the greatest “influence” over everyone was the Viet Nam war. It hung over our country like a permanent storm cloud, affecting almost every family. Even if families didn’t have young men in the war, they knew families that did. Even many “traditionalist” considered the Viet Nam war a waste of money and lives, and seeing the bodies in bags on television made many Americans cynical and angry.

I think the Viet Nam war was the reason why so many other movements developed, as people were rebelling in whatever way they could against this hated war. The hippie movement started because of the war. The fascination with hallucinogenic drugs started because people were despairing in the war and wanted a means of escape (Turn on, tune in, and drop out.) Rock music became more “socially-relevant” than it had been in the 1950s; many of the popular songs were about peace and harmony, something that we didn’t have. Many people got involved with “free love” (sex outside of marriage) because they felt that they would probably die in the war anyway, so may as well have fun while you can.

Along with the war, the killings of Pres. Kennedy, Sen. Kennedy, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, and the attempted assassination of Gov. Wallace, as well as by the Charlie Manson murders, were a major influence on attitudes. It was a brutal time, and we were scared. Many people questioned all authority, including God’s authority, and of course, the authority of their churches. We couldn’t make sense of such a brutal time–if God was there, why didn’t He help us? A lot of people lost faith.

And many were influenced by the Civil Rights Movement and the great strides that African Americans made during the 60s. This was a “good” influence, although there was a violent aspect to that movement, too. There were some civil rights advocates who insisted on violence as a way of achieving equality.

There was lots going on back then, and to imply that hippies were the major influence is a simplification.

I think it’s important for Catholics who mourn the loss of the Latin Mass to take all this into account. It was a scary time, and everything was being questioned.

 

[ProVobis]

But I know… people prefer On Eagle’s Wings and Here I Am, Lord.

That’s the problem. They’ve made it all about hymns and no two people in the world have the same two tastes in music, but they’re going to try to tell you Mass must have hymns (of course, they prefer the vernacular, what else) so you have to sing happily along to fully participate in the Mass. This started around 1964 while people were leaving the church in droves, Catholic schools were closing, nuns and religious were quitting, etc.

 

[GangGreen]

My parish just had Vespers and Benediction to close adoration on the Feast of Christ the King … and yes, the choir sang Pange Lingua. This is the typical use of that hymn, and not one that you would hear any given Sunday during mass, so I beg to differ with you on that. We also sing it every Holy Thursday as the priest processes with the Monstrance to the altar of repose.

Similarly, last year I heard a choir sing Ave Verum Corpus by Mozart on Palm Sunday, but this is another hymn that one would not be appropriate for a Sunday in Ordinary Time.

I’m not saying that the old songs are never done. The point is the way those songs were written. Today’s hymns are more designed to be like pop songs. Chorus, verse, chorus, verse, etc. Most of the older ones instead are pretty much like poetry as they are just a continuous story or prayer. There are plenty of other examples that can be played on any various Sunday. I just gave one as a great example of how the words were written vs. now.

Either way, as has been stated, some types of music appeal to some more than others. Not everyone likes Gregorian chant, not everyone is going to like the modern hymns that we have today, not everyone is going to like the older hymns. It is what it is. Unfortunately, my issue is that most music you hear in church today is modern hymns or bad rewrites of old hymns that are loosely based on the original. I remember hearing the English version of Te Deum and it didn’t come close, not even the same melody. I remember looking forward to Pentecost and getting to hear Veni Creator Spiritus and again, they played it and not even close. I don’t know why they even bother calling it based on the original.

 

[Indyann]

There is nothing wrong with hymns that are “easy to digest.”

Sometimes “simple” is also “profound.”

E.g., “Jesus loves me, this I know.”

Think about this for a long minute. Many people DON’T know that Jesus loves them. There are threads on CAF from people who are convinced that God doesn’t love them anymore or even hates them.

And remember that Jesus is GOD, and yet, He loves me. That’s about as deep as you can get.

Perhaps you prefer that this great truth be surrounded by older English language, thees, thous, or even Latin. That’s fine. But there are plenty of people that find it difficult to get through the older English, the thees and thous, and the Latin, and so they utterly miss the message that “Jesus loves me.” Keep in mind that the average reading level in the United States is 6th grade.

Some people think that it’s better for us to use “big words” in order to lift the “ignorant” out of their ignorance. I don’t agree. The Bible says, "precept upon precept. " A wise mother doesn’t begin reading Shakespeare to her baby. She begins with “Goodnight Moon” and other classic books that are age-appropriate. As the child masters these books and gains “readiness,” she moves on to more advanced reading material. I see nothing wrong with using some simpler hymns in the Mass, as there are many who are not ready for the “deep stuff.”

I do think that some deep hymns should be used as well, for the sake of those who are ready for them. As I said in an earlier post, a variety of hymns from all eras and genres is ideal for any Mass.

All of us have different experiences, and there are many of us for whom these hymns have deep meaning. My husband and I were challenged by the Holy Spirit through “Here I Am, Lord,” to leave Protestantism and come into the Catholic Church. Just because YOU aren’t affected positively by these hymns doesn’t mean that others aren’t.

Yes, the “hippies” influenced fashion, decor (flower power!), hair styles, etc., and still do–bell bottoms are back in again (or at least they were last year).

But there were plenty of other influences, too, from that complex era. I would say that the greatest “influence” over everyone was the Viet Nam war. It hung over our country like a permanent storm cloud, affecting almost every family. Even if families didn’t have young men in the war, they knew families that did. Even many “traditionalist” considered the Viet Nam war a waste of money and lives, and seeing the bodies in bags on television made many Americans cynical and angry.

I think the Viet Nam war was the reason why so many other movements developed, as people were rebelling in whatever way they could against this hated war. The hippie movement started because of the war. The fascination with hallucinogenic drugs started because people were despairing in the war and wanted a means of escape (Turn on, tune in, and drop out.) Rock music became more “socially-relevant” than it had been in the 1950s; many of the popular songs were about peace and harmony, something that we didn’t have. Many people got involved with “free love” (sex outside of marriage) because they felt that they would probably die in the war anyway, so may as well have fun while you can.

Along with the war, the killings of Pres. Kennedy, Sen. Kennedy, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, and the attempted assassination of Gov. Wallace, as well as by the Charlie Manson murders, were a major influence on attitudes. It was a brutal time, and we were scared. Many people questioned all authority, including God’s authority, and of course, the authority of their churches. We couldn’t make sense of such a brutal time–if God was there, why didn’t He help us? A lot of people lost faith.

And many were influenced by the Civil Rights Movement and the great strides that African Americans made during the 60s. This was a “good” influence, although there was a violent aspect to that movement, too. There were some civil rights advocates who insisted on violence as a way of achieving equality.

There was lots going on back then, and to imply that hippies were the major influence is a simplification.

I think it’s important for Catholics who mourn the loss of the Latin Mass to take all this into account. It was a scary time, and everything was being questioned.

You have summed up the times well.

If all you younger people remember the feeling in the pit of your stomachs when you learned of 9/11, imagine living with that feeling for months, years.

And the nation did not “come together”, it remained hostile and divided. Much like it is today.

 

[ProVobis]

You have summed up the times well.

Much as we all like to say things in the 60’s were on the side of revolutionary, we should remember Mass reforms started in the late 40’s if not earlier.(adversus populum, etc.) At least one handmissal in the 50’s was already cutting out the printing of Latin in the Propers for the day. So why study Latin if they’re pushing the vernacular?

 

[Cat]

You have summed up the times well.

If all you younger people remember the feeling in the pit of your stomachs when you learned of 9/11, imagine living with that feeling for months, years.

And the nation did not “come together”, it remained hostile and divided. Much like it is today.

This is an excellent observation, and so true. I just remember how scared my parents were. They talked about the world coming to an end.

I remember how everyone hated and dreaded the draft. Thankfully my brother and my husband were both too young to be part of VietNam. I remember one of the my high school teachers talked about getting out of the war because of college, but describing how several of his friends were killed in Viet Nam.

At least nowadays when a soldier is killed in the line of duty, he or she is honored by their community, and everyone turns out for the funeral, and bands play and a bag piper shows up, and the mayor names a street in the town after the fallen hero.

But back then people despised the military. The soldiers were considered pawns of a corrupt war machine, and people spit on them when they made it back to the U.S. alive. If they came back dead, no one cared, and the grieving family had no supporters to help them through their agony.

It was a terrible time, and everyone was scared.

 

[Simpleton]

This is true.

I agree, go ask the older people. But be prepared for some answers that you probably don’t want to hear.

My husband and I are converts to the Catholic Church from Evangelical Protestantism. We have never met an older person (over 60) who has good things to say about the Latin Mass.

Most of the older people we talk to tell us that they left the Church or considered leaving the Church over the Latin Mass.

I know this is a strong word, but it’s what many of the older ones tell us: They hated it. Some of them are very emotional in expressing just how much they hated it.

They do NOT want it to come back. They like the “modern” music and hymns, and do NOT want Latin chant to come back as the norm.

They are happy enough to have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament in Latin, and to sing occasional Latin hymns and responses in the Mass. But they love the OF Mass and don’t want the EF Mass to become the norm.



Go ask for yourself.

Keep in mind that these older Catholics are the ones who stuck with the Catholic Church during all the upheaval of Vatican II. So these people are worth listening to. They aren’t quitters who walked away, and now are coming back and wanting everything to be just like it was when they were little kids. These are the people who have been weathering the storms for the last 40 years, teaching CCD, giving monies to support all the many good things that the Church does in the world, and quietly praying Rosaries, Novenas, etc.

So we’re talking “salt of the earth.” They are worth listening to and their opinions deserve a lot of study and respect. If they are not leaping on the Latin Mass bandwagon, it’s worth figuring out why and heeding their advice.

Why would you want to heed the advice of those who would or who were thinking about leaving the Church because of the use of Latin in the Liturgy? Plus why should we considered them brave or strong for weathering a storm they prayed for? It must have been hard fo them to see the changes they wanted made in the Liturgy be put into effect. Although it would probably mean nothing if I mentioned I’ve spoken to many late 70s to 80 year olds who pray and hope to that the younger generations will be able to have and carry on with them the Tridemtine Mass. These individuals deserve to be listened to more since they’ve been accused by many for following or being loyal to a “banned liturgy” or “out dated form of worship”. Oh and my favorite accusation that they were going against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cat]

Why would you want to heed the advice of those who would or who were thinking about leaving the Church because of the use of Latin in the Liturgy? Plus why should we considered them brave or strong for weathering a storm they prayed for? It must have been hard fo them to see the changes they wanted made in the Liturgy be put into effect. Although it would probably mean nothing if I mentioned I’ve spoken to many late 70s to 80 year olds who pray and hope to that the younger generations will be able to have and carry on with them the Tridemtine Mass. These individuals deserve to be listened to more since they’ve been accused by many for following or being loyal to a “banned liturgy” or “out dated form of worship”. Oh and my favorite accusation that they were going against the Holy Spirit.

My point is that we should listen to those who remained loyal to Holy Mother Church throughout all the changes.

The OF Mass was not something “rogue,” but was established and endorsed by Holy Mother Church. Christians who love it are doing no wrong.

I doubt very much that back then, most Catholics in the pews “prayed for a storm.” There was no internet, so we had no way of knowing from hour to hour, day to day, or even week to week, what was happening at the Vatican II meetings. I’m guessing that most Catholics were taken by surprise by the changes in the Mass.

And remember, there are Catholics who leave Holy Mother Church to attend questionable groups just because those groups present a Latin Mass.

I think all of us need to take care not to love a Mass form over the Church and Our Savior.