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KittenHash
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I came across this post today and thought it would really bring a refreshing perspective…
catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=999
catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=999
Advice Sexual Activity During Marriage - Information Resources Required
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KatieM2
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It is a medical fact that women do not have to have orgasms to conceive. None of my four children were conceived in intercourse that involved me climaxing.
Yes, sex during infertile times is not required for conception, but is pleasurable. I do not believe that couples should have sex when they believe the wife is infertile, because it is pleasure without the prospect of creating a new life.
Human beings are capable of all kinds of selfish, sinful things. The female orgasm is just one of them.
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LightBound
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10/10 for trolling effort.
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Elizium23
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And yet the Church does not share your view, because sex during infertile periods is still both procreative and unitive, that is, it does have the prospect of creating new life, and it is for pleasure, which is encouraged for married couples.
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CatholicGuy87
Guest
Myself and my fiancé are open to anything and do not want to have our sex life unnecessarily limited due to misconceived ideas.
Does anyone have any clear answers on sex toys, oral sex and anal sex? I seem to not have had any definitive responses yet. Does it therefore seem best to read various books on Catholic marital sex? Will they actually give me a clear answer?
I get the feeling like I will never know and that perhaps the best thing would be to just do what I think is best around the following guidelines and seeing how we feel as a married couple:
• NFP method.
• Ensure that I finish inside my future wife.
• Allow my wife to climax as part of the whole sexual event but not necessarily at the same time that I climax (before or after).
At this moment in time, unless clearly informed it is otherwise definitely incorrect by any valid viewpoint, I will follow the above bullet points and also experiment with sex toys, oral sex and anal sex (with lubrication and a condom) as part of foreplay.
I will read various books and also be open to hearing what anyone else has to say on here; hopefully, we can limit the posts to sources from the bible, Catechism or quotes from respectable Catholic figures.
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pensmama87
Guest
As I said in my first reply, make sure your fiancée is actually open to these things. Discuss it. Even pray about it. She may want to make sure that she doesn’t seem frigid or puritanical, when really some things squick her out. A lot of women feel degraded by some of the things you’ve mentioned, and until pornography use became widespread I honestly don’t think a lot of couples even dreamed of doing some of the things you can see there (and can’t unsee).
I would say, personally, just to start with the two of you and what you can do together that’s fun for both of you. Only introduce other things after you know each other well first. Sometimes if you introduce elements from the outside that make things quick and easy (toys, for instance), a person becomes used to them and needs them for excitement.
I wouldn’t be too quick to discount the very much real experiences of married folks on CAF just because we’ve never had books published or taught a theology class. As I said in my first reply, there aren’t a lot of hard and fast rules about sex (even though secular “wisdom” says the contrary about Catholic teachings on sexuality), and so much is dependent on the couple and the baggage each spouse brings to the marriage. But “there isn’t a rule about it” doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea for every couple in every marriage in every part of their married life.
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mommamaree
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Here is a link to get you started on what the Church actually teaches. It is a theological work, called The Way of the Lord Jesus, but it is clear and relatively easy to read, and written by a highly respected theologian named Germaine Grisez. The link will take you to the section specifically having to do with married sexuality and Church teaching.
twotlj.org/G-2-9-S.html
One more thing, I strongly urge that you ask a priest and a doctor about your planned course of sexual experimentation. You are actively planning a course of action that includes things that are objectively dangerous, and include the use of condoms, which are not permitted. I understand that you are eager to begin your married life with your bride, and want to enjoy sexual relations, but do you really want to put her physical health and the spiritual well-being of both of you at risk? It is better to ask someone more knowledgeable, rather than remain in ignorance as to the physical and spiritual dangers.
twotlj.org/G-2-9-S.html
One more thing, I strongly urge that you ask a priest and a doctor about your planned course of sexual experimentation. You are actively planning a course of action that includes things that are objectively dangerous, and include the use of condoms, which are not permitted. I understand that you are eager to begin your married life with your bride, and want to enjoy sexual relations, but do you really want to put her physical health and the spiritual well-being of both of you at risk? It is better to ask someone more knowledgeable, rather than remain in ignorance as to the physical and spiritual dangers.
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Rau
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I guess then you believe couples have a duty to be aware of their fertility - because to remain blissfully ignorant would give yourself the opportunity of having sex more than half the time when conception was not possible, which you regard as selfish pleasure-seeking! So, this would mean limiting sex to a week or so before ovulation and at most a day or so after.
It would also be necessary to abstain from sex during pregnancy and to end their sex life at menopause for the same reason - it would be selfish pleasure-seeking.
These are unique ideas. They are not taught by the Church. Are they entirely your own ideas, or did they come to you from parents or another source?
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Rau
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Absolutely. But absent a rule to follow, you are going to have to act according to your personal assessment. So, I was just asking whether you feel anal sex (as foreplay) is a loving, tender, marital act? I personally can’t see how my wife’s anus could have any role in our love-making, but that’s me.
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Rau
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The OP might benefit from thinking through this question too. He might feel two out of three is OK. I just want him to think about what he’s doing in the bedroom, rather than just ruling in everything that the “rule book” hasn’t ruled out.
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phillylawyer
Guest
None of these activities would violate the Church’s objective moral teaching on sexuality between married couples.
Others have pointed out potential health risks of such activities (particularly with anal penetration) and of course one should not do anything that either party finds at all objectionable or degrading. Sex is meant to be a self-giving, loving, intimate experience.
There is no Catholic teaching prohibiting such activities, and thus, like most things in life, the Church provides general principles for how to live a holy life, and it is up to the discretion and prudence of the individual/couple how to apply those principles to their daily lives.
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phillylawyer
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Catholic teaching on sexuality is based on the inherent meaning of the sexual act, and is not dependent on whether the couple is potentially fertile at a particular moment or not. Whether the couple is able to great pregnant at a particular moment or not (e.g., because the wife is pregnant, post-menopausal, or the husband is medically infertile) the principles regarding married sexuality are the same. Sex, in all circumstances, is designed to be unitive and procreative. Therefore, the three rules apply when the wife is pregnant as well.
To some people, this teaching that sex should be unitive and procreative in its form at all times, even when it is “obvious” that procreation is not a scientific possibility, is hard to understand. And, to be honest, I can to some extent understand that bewilderment. It seems counter-intuitive.
But, what the Church says (and JPII so beautifully expounded upon in his theology of the body) is that sex is the language that our bodies use to communicate with each other and communicate the nature of how God loves the Church (Genesis 1:27; Ephesians 5:25). Regardless of the external circumstances, each and every act of sexuality between a husband and wife is designed to communicate the truth that they are giving themselves to each other freely, fully, faithfully, and fruitfully (the “Four F’s”). Each act of sexuality is a renewal of their marriage vows and is a reflection of God’s love for the Church, just as His love for the Church is always given freely, fully, faithfully and fruitfully.
Therefore, regardless of whether medically it is known that it is “impossible/highly unlikely” for the wife to get pregnant, the couple’s act of engaging in sexuality and giving themselves to each other is still a renewal of their wedding views and reflects the Four F’s. This means that, in order to be honest with the couple’s bodies and truly renew their marriage vows during sex each and every time, the three objective “rules” and the one subjective rule be followed, even when the wife is pregnant.
In situations like the one you described above, this is certainly a difficulty and a trial for the couple. There is no doubt about it. It may be worth talking to a priest or another married couple at your parish for advice.
God bless you and your husband! Prayers for a safe pregnancy for you.
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phillylawyer
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This is excellent advice.
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phillylawyer
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As others have mentioned, contrary to popular belief, the Catholic “rules” on what is and is not allowed between a husband and wife are very limited. Most things are not against the objective “rules.” However, just because it is not against the rules, does not mean doing so would be helpful for a marriage or would be loving to the spouse.
For example, while there is no Catholic “rule” against doing so, shouting out the names of my ex-girlfriends during sex would not be appropriate and would be unloving to my wife.
There is a lot of confusion about the Catholic “rulebook” on sex, and I want to make sure that the hard and fast rules are clear. But, being a loving spouse in and out of the bedroom is about much more than merely following the letter of the law.
It’s great that you want to live your marriage and sexuality in line God’s and the Church’s teachings!
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SusanneT
Guest
Surely a married couple who are completely open to life can choose to have potentially procreative sex whenever they like (they don’t need to consider issues of fertility) but to choose to do so only when the wife is believed to be infertile is essentially to practice NFP, which is acceptable, but only if they themselves believe they have justified reasons.
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Rau
Guest
Yes. The poster to whom I was responding seems to have some other ideas.
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