Advice SSPX

[Allan_M]

Hi all, I have question and a statement:
Statement: I WILL NOT BREAK WITH THE ROMAN PONTIFF.
Question: Should I attend (if the opportunity arose) SSPX masses, confession, adoration etc.
Here’s the thing I’m a Scott living in Holland I’ve seen and heard the what liberalism does to the Catholic Church. Liberalism here in Holland is “very advanced”, e.g the priest who offers mass at the church I go to has questioned (on the alter) why women are not allowed to be ordained, he wanted to have a sufi muslim come to the sacrifice of the mass and express his prayers through his “dance” as that lot do, he has told parishioners that it is not necessary to pray the rosary every day. I defense of those who are liberals I don’t think they want to destroy the church… but the descenters who hide among them do, and inevitably influence those who are trying to adhere to the VII teachings on communication with other faith groups and alike. OOPS: I’ve almost derailed my own thread.
So in the face of this type of thing happening at the Sunday sacrifice regularly would you go to the SSPX’s masses, bearing in mind I have been blessed with two champion daughters Annsarai Mary (2 years old) and Hannah Faustina Maria (2.05 months old) and the responsibility to tend to all there needs (not least faith formation) lands squarely on my shoulders, do I take them to the descenters or the schismatics (well X schismatics or whatever they are). Plus after being exposed to this every Sunday I have developed a real attraction to the Latin mass and indeed the traditional ways some of what I practice myself.
So all advice and comments are welcome.

 

[catholicknight]

Okay, here’s the deal about the SSPX. As you know the excommunications have been lifted on the original four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in 1988. That being said, however, all SSPX clergy are still suspended from administering the sacraments. This puts them in an odd position as Catholic priests (and yes, they are Catholic priests). So what to do?

Here is the present situation for the sacraments offered by a suspended priest…

Baptism - always VALID
Eucharist - VALID but illicit
Matrimony - INVALID
Penance - INVALID

So for starters, any confession you make to an SSPX priest, right now (9-30-2009), is invalid. However, you can receive the Eucharist from an SSPX priest. Here’s the catch. While the SSPX is not formally a schismatic sect, the Vatican has warned of a “spirit of schism” that often exists within their parishes. One must be careful of this. The Vatican has made it very clear that one may receive communion in an SSPX parish (though not confession) so long as when doing so, one does not intend to act in defiance of the Church. Overall, the Vatican discourages the faithful from attending SSPX masses, but also states there is no sin if one does attend, and you most certainly cannot be punished for attending one.

Here is my advice. Wait and see. There is a good change normalization of relations between the Vatican and the SSPX could happen very soon. When it does, there would no longer be any problems to stand in the way. Once the suspensions are lifted from the whole SSPX, you will be able to receive all the sacraments from an SSPX priest without a problem.

 

[pnewton]

I have another suggestion. If you decide you want to attend an SSPX chapel just to experience the Latin Mass, try to find an orthodox and faithful spiritual advisor to act as a safety harness, preferably some one whose opinion you value. That way you can attend on occasion and expose your family to traditional values without having a schismatic mindset. While doing this, always seek to have a Latin Mass said in your diocese. I think we are seeing the older liberal dissadent generation on the way out and Pope Benedict will continue the path he has started.

 

[Sir_Anthony]

Hi all, I have question and a statement:
Statement: I WILL NOT BREAK WITH THE ROMAN PONTIFF.
Question: Should I attend (if the opportunity arose) SSPX masses, confession, adoration etc.
Here’s the thing I’m a Scott living in Holland I’ve seen and heard the what liberalism does to the Catholic Church. Liberalism here in Holland is “very advanced”, e.g the priest who offers mass at the church I go to has questioned (on the alter) why women are not allowed to be ordained, he wanted to have a sufi muslim come to the sacrifice of the mass and express his prayers through his “dance” as that lot do, he has told parishioners that it is not necessary to pray the rosary every day. I defense of those who are liberals I don’t think they want to destroy the church… but the descenters who hide among them do, and inevitably influence those who are trying to adhere to the VII teachings on communication with other faith groups and alike. OOPS: I’ve almost derailed my own thread.
So in the face of this type of thing happening at the Sunday sacrifice regularly would you go to the SSPX’s masses, bearing in mind I have been blessed with two champion daughters Annsarai Mary (2 years old) and Hannah Faustina Maria (2.05 months old) and the responsibility to tend to all there needs (not least faith formation) lands squarely on my shoulders, do I take them to the descenters or the schismatics (well X schismatics or whatever they are). Plus after being exposed to this every Sunday I have developed a real attraction to the Latin mass and indeed the traditional ways some of what I practice myself.
So all advice and comments are welcome.

Frankly, their sacraments might be invalid and illicit, but when you have flagrant abuses like you describe in the “normal” parish I would argue that priest is invalid. I would report him to the bishop immediately, and frankly I would attend the SSPX Church but just won’t receive the sacraments till SSPX are normalized again. You need to go where you are fed spiritually and where you and your family can grow spiritually. Fear not, and just pass on your Catholic heritage to your daughter the best you can, this 40 years in the desert since VII are coming to an end, and it will get better.

 

[Cluny]

A big step in regularizing and reconciling relationship between SSPX and the Holy See has been made, for which I thank God.

Surely God will see things through the rest of the way.

In the meantime, pray.

 

[Allan_M]

Hi all and thanks for you’re take on the situation, some good sound advice in there:thumbsup: catholicknight you said all baptisms are valid… my youngest daughter is not yet baptized so I would be 100% valid to have it done by the SSPX?.
Sir Anthony you said to report the priest to the bishop… the bishop sends him to our mass because it is an English mass here in Holland, and that means that it is all non-national’s (not the Dutcheese) so the priest will be exposed to some catholic objections, essentially we are to guide him, for these reasons I cannot leave that church not now, but when my kids are old enough to listen and understand it;s time to look after you;re own if you know what I mean.

 

[cathguy]

Hi all and thanks for you’re take on the situation, some good sound advice in there:thumbsup: catholicknight you said all baptisms are valid… my youngest daughter is not yet baptized so I would be 100% valid to have it done by the SSPX?.
Sir Anthony you said to report the priest to the bishop… the bishop sends him to our mass because it is an English mass here in Holland, and that means that it is all non-national’s (not the Dutcheese) so the priest will be exposed to some catholic objections, essentially we are to guide him, for these reasons I cannot leave that church not now, but when my kids are old enough to listen and understand it;s time to look after you;re own if you know what I mean.

You say you are Holland? God bless you! Hang in there!!!

Listen, in some areas of Europe, in fact most, especially in Holland where I hear gay unions are being “blessed” in Catholic Churches, you may not have much choice.

That said, please know this:

Baptisms are valid when performed by any Christian. You only need the proper form, so of course Baptisms in an SSPX chapel would be valid.

The Eucharist is truly present in an SSPX chapel.

However, as other posters have pointed out, the SSPX do NOT currently enjoy jurisdiction form the local ordinary. Therefore, Marriages and Confessions will likely be INVALID. That is a big deal.

Furthermore, you may experience a bit of a hostile spirit towards Rome. That is a real concern. Will you be opening yourself up to marinating in a disobedient spirit by attending SSPX chapels regularly?

These are very important considerations. If there is NO orthodox and faithful alternative, if the Bishop is being a typical European Bishop and pretending that the Motu Proprio doesn’t exist, and if the priests seem in general to be “priest, prophet, and queen” as opposed to “priest, prophet, and king” then you may have no choice BUT the SSPX. Only you know how bad things truly are on the ground where you are at.

That said, I would be loathe to attend an SSPX chapel solely.

I am praying for you. Hang in there!!!

 

[SenorSalsa]

Plus, I have seen some speculation that the SSPX could be in full union as early as Monday–as in THIS Monday. That being the case, you would certainly be able to go.

If that be the case, I would be very jubilant, and you would be able to attend with no qualms, as well as (presumably) receive all sacraments there

 

[cathguy]

Plus, I have seen some speculation that the SSPX could be in full union as early as Monday–as in THIS Monday. That being the case, you would certainly be able to go.

If that be the case, I would be very jubilant, and you would be able to attend with no qualms, as well as (presumably) receive all sacraments there

Wow!!!

At this point this is speculation only. There are serious problems that I would guess need to be worked out.

There are doctrinal issues and questions. What does “acceptance” of Vatican II mean? Will the Holy Father grant jurisdiction and normalized canonical standing without a full consent to the Council? If so, what parts of the Council are good Catholics free to reject?

There are SO MANY questions here that need to be answered for good and faithful people (both in and out of the SSPX) that I cannot imagine a normalization by Monday.

Of course, I have been wrong before.

Let’s hope… and pray. Unity would be WONDERFUL.

 

[thistle]

Hi all, I have question and a statement:
Statement: I WILL NOT BREAK WITH THE ROMAN PONTIFF.
Question: Should I attend (if the opportunity arose) SSPX masses, confession, adoration etc.
Here’s the thing I’m a Scott living in Holland I’ve seen and heard the what liberalism does to the Catholic Church. Liberalism here in Holland is “very advanced”, e.g the priest who offers mass at the church I go to has questioned (on the alter) why women are not allowed to be ordained, he wanted to have a sufi muslim come to the sacrifice of the mass and express his prayers through his “dance” as that lot do, he has told parishioners that it is not necessary to pray the rosary every day. I defense of those who are liberals I don’t think they want to destroy the church… but the descenters who hide among them do, and inevitably influence those who are trying to adhere to the VII teachings on communication with other faith groups and alike. OOPS: I’ve almost derailed my own thread.
So in the face of this type of thing happening at the Sunday sacrifice regularly would you go to the SSPX’s masses, bearing in mind I have been blessed with two champion daughters Annsarai Mary (2 years old) and Hannah Faustina Maria (2.05 months old) and the responsibility to tend to all there needs (not least faith formation) lands squarely on my shoulders, do I take them to the descenters or the schismatics (well X schismatics or whatever they are). Plus after being exposed to this every Sunday I have developed a real attraction to the Latin mass and indeed the traditional ways some of what I practice myself.
So all advice and comments are welcome.

You made a typo. You are a Scot and not a Scott (unless that’s your name)!

Are you sure its really a Catholic Church in union with Rome you have been to and not the Reformed Catholic Church.

The only thing you mentioned they said which is not wrong is about the Rosary. It is a private devotion and Catholics are not obliged to pray it at all. However, I do pray it daily because I think its a very powerful prayer.

 

[Allan_M]

Thanks for you’re (name removed by moderator)ut Thistle

 

[Allan_M]

Where did you see this speculation???

 

[catholicknight]

Hi all and thanks for you’re take on the situation, some good sound advice in there:thumbsup: catholicknight you said all baptisms are valid… my youngest daughter is not yet baptized so I would be 100% valid to have it done by the SSPX?.

Yes, a baptism at an SSPX parish would be perfectly valid. Remember, the Eucharist is valid too - just illicit. That means the Eucharist is perfectly sacramental, it really is the body and blood of Christ. It’s just that the priest doesn’t have legal permission to celebrate the mass. That being said, there is nothing wrong with Catholics receiving the Eucharist at a SSPX parish, it’s just not recommended for a regular habit.

Here is what I would do if I were in your situation. If the abuses are really as bad you you say, it sounds like you’re in an extraordinary circumstance, and if that were the case, I would be more interested in protecting my family from liberal modernism. So the first thing I would do is talk to my wife about it, and try to get her on the same page as me. The second thing I would do is go ahead and start visiting the SSPX parish about once a month, just to ease into it. Remember, the Eucharist is valid there, and you cannot be lawfully punished by your bishop for attending an SSPX parish. At the same time though, I wouldn’t go broadcasting it to all your friends either. No sense tempting fate. Third, IF my wife and I decided together to start going there weekly, and we were both in 100% agreement, then I would start doing that. However, I would continue receiving the sacrament of penance at a regular parish, so as to make sure I’m making a valid confession. I would also confess anonymously as well, using the privacy screen, so that the regular parish priest doesn’t recognize me and ask, “why haven’t you been to mass lately?”

The only thing you need to guard against is the “spirit of schism” which can be latent in some (not all) SSPX parishes. Remember, there are people there who can be very hostile toward Vatican II, and the universal Church. Sometimes even the priest can fall into this category. So everything you hear there you need to take with a grain of salt.

It helps to have a good understanding of the Second Vatican Council before you go in. First, remember that Vatican II was primarily as “pastoral council” and the conciliar bishops wanted to achieve a “low profile” of this council in comparison to Vatican I and the Council of Trent. Unfortunately, the Modernists had other plans and effectively hijacked the interpretation of the Council after it had closed. Believe it or not, the SSPX actually does accept Vatican II, but only on a pastoral level. The issues it has with Vatican II are very small, and mainly relate to ecumenism and religious liberty of conscience. It would be safe to say the SSPX has a bigger problem with the Novus Ordo mass than it does with Vatican II.

Also remember this, SSPX parishes have been a haven for Sedevacatists for years. Though the SSPX is not Sedevacatist, many of them hang out there because the SSPX is usually the only Tridentine mass in town. Should you run across any of those, you’ll be amazed by the open hostility they have toward the pope. Their arguments can be convincing, if you allow them to get your ear, but keep in mind that the premise behind their arguments is legalism. It’s best to just ignore them all together.

I suspect that once relations between the Vatican and the SSPX are normalized, all of these things will start to come into balance. The Sedevacatists will leave the SSPX parishes behind, seeing their restored relationship with Rome a form of “apostasy” I’m sure. The bishops of the SSPX will work to temper hostility toward the Rome and the Second Vatican Council. That should trickle down to the parish level within a short amount of time. Once relations have been normalized, you can probably feel free to pursue full membership in the SSPX parish, if that is your desire. But I wouldn’t become a member until that happens first.

 

[SenorSalsa]

Wow!!!

At this point this is speculation only. There are serious problems that I would guess need to be worked out.

There are doctrinal issues and questions. What does “acceptance” of Vatican II mean? Will the Holy Father grant jurisdiction and normalized canonical standing without a full consent to the Council? If so, what parts of the Council are good Catholics free to reject?

There are SO MANY questions here that need to be answered for good and faithful people (both in and out of the SSPX) that I cannot imagine a normalization by Monday.

Of course, I have been wrong before.

Let’s hope… and pray. Unity would be WONDERFUL.

This much is not speculation:

"[Card. Castrillón:] Full communion will come. In our discussions, Bishop Fellay recognized the Second Vatican Council, he recognized it theologically. Only a few difficulties remain…

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/01/cardinal-castrillon-relevant.html

The rest is a mix:

In fact, Vatican sources have indicated that the full regularization may occur as early as February 2, 2009,

regarding their reluctance to accept all parts of Vatican II:

“They won’t be asked to accept the Council,” Monsignor Barreiro said. “There is nothing dogmatic regarding faith and morals in the Council documents,” he emphasized. “Many have elevated the Council as if it were a superdogma, when in truth, it was not dogmatic at all.”

neither will they be asked to accept the Decree on Ecumenism, the Declaration of Religious Liberty, Nostra Aetate or even Lumen Gentium and Dei Verbum as dogmatic declarations that can stand alone** without reading them in light of Tradition.**

emphasis mine, they do not have to accept them as overruling Tradition, but rather fitting in with it is how I read that.

Really nothing surprising there. As he points out. None of those documents were dogmatic.

wdtprs.com/blog/2009/01/the-remnant-sspx-reconciliation-by-2-february/

 

[brendankiwi]

As an ex-SPX follower, Firstly accept all the crumbs of catholicism your consular church offer (eg once a month mass in the old rite) and pray teh orsary as a family, and THEN in good conscience if you still have a sacramental need, go to the SPX… and this attitude should keep you out of schism.

 

[Seamus_L]

If I was unable to find a traditional parish within a reasonable travelling distance, I’d most definitely worship with the SSPX.

 

[oldmass]

I have another suggestion. If you decide you want to attend an SSPX chapel just to experience the Latin Mass, try to find an orthodox and faithful spiritual advisor to act as a safety harness, preferably some one whose opinion you value

I have to chuckle at this kind of advice. An “orthodox and faithful spiritual advisor,” huh? Many of the forum members have been navigating the troubled waters of the NO system for years. They have been awash with liturgical irregularities, and outrageous innovations. They’ve been fed a diet of false ecumenism and imbued with the spirit of religious liberty. Legions of their children have fallen away from the Faith. Many Catholic parents in the NO would not think to leave their children alone with a parish priest for fear he might be a pervert or a pedophile. Often, the NO schools to which they would like to send their children are as fraught with the same dangerous influence infecting the public school system. Now we have various forum members on this thread advising others to be extremely careful in dealing with the SSPX because of the pitfalls they may encounter by attendance at chapels. Please, give us a break!

 

[pnewton]

Now we have various forum members on this thread advising others to be extremely careful in dealing with the SSPX because of the pitfalls they may encounter by attendance at chapels. Please, give us a break!

That is correct and I am pleased you find it so funny. If you read the OP instead of jumping in half blind, you will note that he is desiring to be careful. One must be careful when one is dealing with an illicit, rebelous organization.

This is not a thread about every thing you hate about Catholicism.

 

[oldmass]

One must be careful when one is dealing with an illicit, rebelous organization, (i.e. SSPX).

Yes, I would agree. One must be extremely careful when dealing, say, with the Archdioces of Los Angeles, or the Archdiocese of Boston, or the Diocese of Spokane, or the Diocese of Orange, to name a few examples. The bishops and many of the priests attached to these “organization(s)” have been very “rebelous” (sic), indeed, and worse. However, it does not appear that the Holy See, presently, wishes to characterize the SSPX in that manner.

 

[Seamus_L]

Totally agree with Oldmass, and I’ll add that even in the spiritually healthier dioceses one may still occasionally encounter toxic teaching.