Advocates want birth control separated from abortion laws

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Transformer said:
Benedictus is right: If the pill does not kill embryos between fertilization and implantation, we cannot lie and pretend it does simply because we know that contraception is evil. I want to destroy contraception and abortion with nothing but the truth, and if Benedictus is right and there is no real research-based data that suggests chemical contraceptives cause abortions, then I’m not going to claim they do.

God bless.
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There is no birth control pill that assures the user of total freedom from chemical abortion. You’re kidding yourself if that’s what you think! The Lord gave man dominion over the earth, as we learn in the Bible, and instructed man to be fruitful and multiply. Nowhere in the Bible will you find encouragement to refuse the gift of a child.

You would be well served to read John Kippley’s article, “Apologetics and Birth Control” so that perhaps you can help your friend see that the Bible does indeed have much to say about saying no to God, which is precisely what birth control does. See catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9011fea1.asp
 
InTheWilderness said:
Creating a distinction between actual versus potential affects is pointless from a moral standpoint. If you know something may potentially result in a gravely immoral outcome, it should be avoided just the same as something that you know will cause a gravely immoral outcome.

I have heard people say the pill causes abortion, others that it potentially causes abortion, still others prefer to say it may potentially cause a miscarriage. It really doesn’t matter, if any of those 3 are correct, then it is really the same thing. In any of those three cases, it still contributes to the death of a child.
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A good point. As the analogy goes if one sees a paper bag in the road and has reason to believe it may contain a baby does one go and kick the bag or does one try to do everything one can to help the baby?

If there is a good reason to think the medication may be abortifacient one does not need metaphysical certitude to act correctly. The evidence exists it may very well be abortifacient. Why act like it really is not?
 
Listen, some of you are arguing against Benedictus based on faith, and you cannot do that in this situation. Not everyone accepts the church teachings on abortion or contraceptives, or even God himself. Arguments must be made from a secular standpoint, or it won’t get through to abortion supporters.

Edit: Just realized what my post sounds like. I realize this is what you are trying to say, Benedictus.
 
Firefox said:
Listen, some of you are arguing against Benedictus based on faith, and you cannot do that in this situation. Not everyone accepts the church teachings on abortion or contraceptives, or even God himself. Arguments must be made from a secular standpoint, or it won’t get through to abortion supporters.

Edit: Just realized what my post sounds like. I realize this is what you are trying to say, Benedictus.
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And because everyone believes in error that makes it right? We are not arguing Benedictus based on faith. And because everyone doesn’t accept the fact that abortion is murder does that make it right? Think before you speak.
 
bones_IV said:
When is it ever going to be the day they finally admit that when the pill, or other birth control agent, **acts to prevent the embryonic child from implantating in the womb, that action is abortion? ** Some people just never learn. :mad:

I am not trying to start an arguement but, at the stage of implanting it is a zygote not an embryo. Those are two very different stages in development, the zygote stage lasts untill implantation, so birth control does not allow the zygote to implant not the embryo. And that information comes from Lifespan Development byDensie Boyd and Helen Bee for those who want to know the validity of my answer.

bones_IV
And because everyone doesn’t accept the fact that abortion is murder does that make it right?

Are women who have miscarriages murderers? It is a natural abortion, the woman failed to have a baby. Is that wrong? But thats getting off the topic of Birth Control causing abortion.
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Firefox said:
Listen, some of you are arguing against Benedictus based on faith, and you cannot do that in this situation. Not everyone accepts the church teachings on abortion or contraceptives, or even God himself. Arguments must be made from a secular standpoint, or it won’t get through to abortion supporters.

Edit: Just realized what my post sounds like. I realize this is what you are trying to say, Benedictus.
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It is not simply an issue of Catholic belief or not. The abortifacient potential of these medications is well documented. My point is why act as if it is not when we ought to act as if it is. That is not a Catholic argument. That is an argument based on the common understanding life is precious.
 
sasafr said:
bones_IV;1875999:
When is it ever going to be the day they finally admit that when the pill, or other birth control agent, **acts to prevent the embryonic child from implantating in the womb, that action is abortion? **
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Some people just never learn. :mad:

I am not trying to start an arguement but, at the stage of implanting it is a zygote not an embryo. Those are two very different stages in development, the zygote stage lasts untill implantation, so birth control does not allow the zygote to implant not the embryo. And that information comes from Lifespan Development byDensie Boyd and Helen Bee for those who want to know the validity of my answer.

bones_IV
And because everyone doesn’t accept the fact that abortion is murder does that make it right?

Are women who have miscarriages murderers? It is a natural abortion, the woman failed to have a baby. Is that wrong? But thats getting off the topic of Birth Control causing abortion.

Life begins at conception. Whether implantation occurs or not it is still a life. As to spontaneous abortion that is vastly different from direct abortion. One is willed the other is not.
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sasafr said:
bones_IV;1875999:
When is it ever going to be the day they finally admit that when the pill, or other birth control agent, **acts to prevent the embryonic child from implantating in the womb, that action is abortion? **
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Some people just never learn. :mad:

I am not trying to start an arguement but, at the stage of implanting it is a zygote not an embryo. Those are two very different stages in development, the zygote stage lasts untill implantation, so birth control does not allow the zygote to implant not the embryo. And that information comes from Lifespan Development byDensie Boyd and Helen Bee for those who want to know the validity of my answer.

bones_IV
And because everyone doesn’t accept the fact that abortion is murder does that make it right?

Are women who have miscarriages murderers? It is a natural abortion, the woman failed to have a baby. Is that wrong? But thats getting off the topic of Birth Control causing abortion.

all.org/abac/dni003.htm
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there is no real research-based data that suggests chemical contraceptives cause abortions
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There is no direct evidence that hormonal contraceptives (this includes pills, injections, patch, etc.) cause early abortion; however, the changes in the endometrium are
well-documented. This mechanism of action is indeed on the prescribing information. There is evidence from other studies that support these changes may prevent or reduce implantation.

I agree that the potential abortifacient effect should be known but the information should be accurate.
 
astegallrnc said:
There is no direct evidence that hormonal contraceptives (this includes pills, injections, patch, etc.) cause early abortion; however, the changes in the endometrium are
well-documented. This mechanism of action is indeed on the prescribing information. There is evidence from other studies that support these changes may prevent or reduce implantation.

I agree that the potential abortifacient effect should be known but the information should be accurate.
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That is a bold faced lie.
 
From **Birth Control Pill: Abortifacient and Contraceptive**The authors repeatedly state that no scientific proof has appeared in the medical literature demonstrating that the pill is abortifacient. They are correct. The reason is that such proof would require collecting, fixing, staining, and serially sectioning all vaginal contents from mid-cycle through menstruation and demonstrating the presence of an early embryo. No one has the time, money or motivation for such an undertaking. In addition, would such a study be morally permissible? We think not. **Attempting to prove that any mechanism causes the death of an innocent human individual is an assault on the fifth commandment.**I stated there is no direct evidence, which is not a lie.

I stated there is a potential abortifaceint effect. This is because of well-documented changes in the endometrium and it is found on the prescribing information:Combination oral contraceptives (COCs) act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increases the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduces the likelihood of implantation).
In an attempt to prevent confusion… mechanism is an
involuntary and consistent response to a stimulus. Actions of drugs are the biochemical physiological mechanisms by which the chemical produces a response in living organisms.
With this in mind “Combination oral contraceptives (COCs)** act** by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary
(i)nvoluntary and consistent response] of this action (suppression of GnRH) is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increases the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduces the likelihood of implantation)”. So, the changes in the endometrium is a mechanism.

I don’t mind confrontation, but please don’t accuse me of spreading “bold faced” lies.
 
bones_IV said:
And because everyone believes in error that makes it right? We are not arguing Benedictus based on faith. And because everyone doesn’t accept the fact that abortion is murder does that make it right? Think before you speak.
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It does not make it right, but it makes it so that if you say contraception is wrong because the church teaches so, you will be ignored by those who don’t listen to church teaching. You must try to convince people off what they know, or their principles. Right now, I could go onto MSN, double click the SN of the Canadian agnostic liberal on my list, inform him of the topic, quote this

“There is no birth control pill that assures the user of total freedom from chemical abortion. You’re kidding yourself if that’s what you think! The Lord gave man dominion over the earth, as we learn in the Bible, and instructed man to be fruitful and multiply. Nowhere in the Bible will you find encouragement to refuse the gift of a child.”

and he will say, “So what?” That’s what I’m saying. I believe every word of your arguments, and they certainly have their place, but it is critical to make arguments in a way that can convince as many people as possible.
 
astegallrnc said:
From **Birth Control Pill: Abortifacient and Contraceptive**The authors repeatedly state that no scientific proof has appeared in the medical literature demonstrating that the pill is abortifacient. They are correct. The reason is that such proof would require collecting, fixing, staining, and serially sectioning all vaginal contents from mid-cycle through menstruation and demonstrating the presence of an early embryo. No one has the time, money or motivation for such an undertaking. In addition, would such a study be morally permissible? We think not. **Attempting to prove that any mechanism causes the death of an innocent human individual is an assault on the fifth commandment.**I stated there is no direct evidence, which is not a lie.

I stated there is a potential abortifaceint effect. This is because of well-documented changes in the endometrium and it is found on the prescribing information:Combination oral contraceptives (COCs) act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increases the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduces the likelihood of implantation).In an attempt to prevent confusion… mechanism is an
involuntary and consistent response to a stimulus. Actions of drugs are the biochemical physiological mechanisms by which the chemical produces a response in living organisms.
With this in mind “Combination oral contraceptives (COCs)** act** by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary
(i)nvoluntary and consistent response] of this action (suppression of GnRH) is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increases the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduces the likelihood of implantation)”. So, the changes in the endometrium is a mechanism.

I don’t mind confrontation, but please don’t accuse me of spreading “bold faced” lies.
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You didn’t prove your point. And besides this is Catholic forum. If you can’t take it then get out.

Take a hint my friend.

Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduce the likelihood of implantation).
If the human embryonic baby is denied the ability ti implant, that baby will die and this death is an abortion! The pill can and does abort. You can even ask Judy Brown of EWTN herself. She’ll give u a similar answer.
 
Firefox said:
It does not make it right, but it makes it so that if you say contraception is wrong because the church teaches so, you will be ignored by those who don’t listen to church teaching. You must try to convince people off what they know, or their principles. Right now, I could go onto MSN, double click the SN of the Canadian agnostic liberal on my list, inform him of the topic, quote this

“There is no birth control pill that assures the user of total freedom from chemical abortion. You’re kidding yourself if that’s what you think! The Lord gave man dominion over the earth, as we learn in the Bible, and instructed man to be fruitful and multiply. Nowhere in the Bible will you find encouragement to refuse the gift of a child.”

and he will say, “So what?” That’s what I’m saying. I believe every word of your arguments, and they certainly have their place, but it is critical to make arguments in a way that can convince as many people as possible.
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It’s the way and tone in which it sounds.
 
bones_IV said:
You didn’t prove your point. And besides this is Catholic forum. If you can’t take it then get out.

Take a hint my friend.

Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduce the likelihood of implantation).
If the human embryonic baby is denied the ability ti implant, that baby will die and this death is an abortion! The pill can and does abort. You can even ask Judy Brown of EWTN herself. She’ll give u a similar answer.
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You stated my post was a bold faced lie. What lie? You haven’t answered that. I didn’t lie, and I won’t lie about the pill by stating it is an absolute abortifacient.

Give me direct evidence that it is an abortifacient. There is no direct evidence. That is my point.

I admit it is a potential abortifacient. Where did I say that preventing implantation is not abortion? I don’t need to ask Judy Brown since I understand that pregnancy begins at conception, and I understand that if the pill prevents implantation that would make the pill an abortifacient.

Thank you but I will stay and continue to present the truth. I have posted nothing that contradicts Catholic teaching.
 
Benedictus said:
Thank you.

To everyone else reading this:

I am 100% opposed to abortion. I accept the Church’s teaching on contraception.

I believe we need to be as accurate as possible when discussing issues surrounding abortion and contraception. If research supports abortifacient effects of the pill, then we should make that known to everyone we can. If there is little or no evidence to support abortifacient effects from the pill, then we shouldn’t claim that the pill is an abortifacient.
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Fair enough.

Lots of us “silly, anti-contraception” Catholics see the potential abortificient effects of oral contraceptives as a kind of wake-up call to other pro-lifers, who sincerely ain’t about to give up oral contraceptives, because they don’t know some facts.
 
astegallrnc said:
You stated my post was a bold faced lie. What lie? You haven’t answered that. I didn’t lie, and I won’t lie about the pill by stating it is an absolute abortifacient.

Give me direct evidence that it is an abortifacient. There is no direct evidence. That is my point.

I admit it is a potential abortifacient. Where did I say that preventing implantation is not abortion? I don’t need to ask Judy Brown since I understand that pregnancy begins at conception, and I understand that if the pill prevents implantation that would make the pill an abortifacient.

Thank you but I will stay and continue to present the truth. I have posted nothing that contradicts Catholic teaching.
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It still doesn’t make it right.

I’ll show you the side effects of the pill.
  • Here are some of the side effects:
  • bacterial infections (because the pill weakens the immune system.)
  • more susceptible to the AIDS virus (HIV) because the pill weakens the immune system
  • pelvic inflammatory disease-an infection of the fallopian tubes that can cause sickness or sterility
  • infertility-unable to ever bear children
  • cervical cancer
  • ectopic pregnancy
  • shrinking of the womb (endometrial atrophy)
  • mood swings and depression
  • breast cancer
  • blood clots
  • birth defects in children conceived while women are on the pill
  • tender breasts
  • stroke
  • weight gain
    The child could be moments old or as much as seven to nine days old (having not yet fully implanted) and the pill could destroy him.
    Abortion kills a person whether he or she is moments old or in the birth canal.

    Dear Mindy Therese
    The birth control pill has abortifacient potential, and so does the morning after pill regimen which is really a mega dose of the pill. If the human being has begun at conception, either the pill or the morning after mega dose can and does abort.
    The clinical evidence is available:
    THE PILL all.org/news/declife.htm MORNING AFTER PILL REGIMENT: morningafterpill.org
    Judie Brown
You say, " Give me direct evidence that it is an abortifacient. There is no direct evidence." Yet you also say, " I admit it is a potential abortifacient." Which is it?! I see in this post mindless contradictions.
 
I’ll show you the side effects of the pill.

Here are some of the side effects:
  • bacterial infections (because the pill weakens the immune system.)
  • more susceptible to the AIDS virus (HIV) because the pill weakens the immune system
  • pelvic inflammatory disease-an infection of the fallopian tubes that can cause sickness or sterility
  • infertility-unable to ever bear children
  • cervical cancer
  • ectopic pregnancy
  • shrinking of the womb (endometrial atrophy)
  • mood swings and depression
  • breast cancer
  • blood clots
  • birth defects in children conceived while women are on the pill
  • tender breasts
  • stroke
  • weight gain
Click to expand...
Thanks but I prescribed them for years and can name several more not on this list.
The child could be moments old or as much as seven to nine days old (having not yet fully implanted) and the pill could destroy him.
Abortion kills a person whether he or she is moments old or in the birth canal.
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Did I ever deny this? No. Please read what I have written. Just because I make the distinction that the pill is a potential abortifacient does not mean I support abortion at any stage of human development.
The birth control pill has abortifacient potential
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Exactly what I said. Now, where did I state a “bold faced” lie?
Give me direct evidence that it is an abortifacient. There is no direct evidence." Yet you also say, " I admit it is a potential abortifacient." Which is it?! I see in this post mindless contradictions.
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No contradictions. There is no scientific proof (such proof would require collecting, fixing, staining, and serially sectioning all vaginal contents from mid-cycle through menstruation and demonstrating the presence of an early embryo), but the changes in the endometrium are well-documented and support this is a potential effect. Seems simple enough to me.
 
astegallrnc said:
Thanks but I prescribed them for years and can name several more not on this list.

Did I ever deny this? No. Please read what I have written. Just because I make the distinction that the pill is a potential abortifacient does not mean I support abortion at any stage of human development.

Exactly what I said. Now, where did I state a “bold faced” lie?

No contradictions. There is no scientific proof (such proof would require collecting, fixing, staining, and serially sectioning all vaginal contents from mid-cycle through menstruation and demonstrating the presence of an early embryo), but the changes in the endometrium are well-documented and support this is a potential effect. Seems simple enough to me.
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Then why did you state the following, “there is no direct evidence that hormonal contraceptives (this includes pills, injections, patch, etc.) cause early abortion.”
 
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