Affirmative Action

[1ke]

Kirane:

I would like to take issue with what was said by 1ke here:

For the record I am a she, not a he.

Kirane:

Here he says that we are not supposed to mention the fact that innocent Japanese Americans were placed in concentration camps during WWII. But why so/? He has no objection to what Rand al thor says about Irish working on the railroads as evidence of discrimination:

I did not say that we ‘are not supposed to mention’ the happenings of WWI related to Japanese Americans. I said that it is not relevant to the topic of this thread-- Affirmative Action– which is my opinion on the wandering away from the topic of the OP and onto another topic-- persecution of Asians.

Please start another thread if you want to talk about Japanese internment.

Rand’s comments about Irish history in this country is basically irrelevant also. Both comments are tangential to the topic of the thread.

Kirane:

Don’t we have an example of a double standard here – one for the Japanese Americans and the other for the Irish. The Japanese Americans are not supposed to mention their illegal internment in concentration camps during WWII as evidence of discrimination, but it is OK, and no one has raised a peep, concerning the raising of the question of Irish Americans working on railroads (of their own free will).

Both statements are trivial and are irrelevant to the topic of Affirmative Action. I replied to you because you posted directly to me.

This is a message board, where people post opinions, it’s not a “double standard”. You can say whatever you want, just be prepared for people to disagree with you.

Isn’t your assumption that I was a “he” not also a discriminatory assumptoin? Hmmmm…

Kirane:

Why is it OK to mention the irrelevant topic of Irish working on railroads, and nobody has objected to it, but it is not OK to mention the illegal internment of Japanese Americans during WWII. Is not this another example of how Japanese Americans have been discriminated against on this thread and in the USA?

Persecution complex, definitely.

 

[Loren_1of6]

Has anyone thought of leaving the race question off of all applications, questionnaires, forms, etc? As long as the government and business worlds tell us that race is important, we will believe it.

I think it should actually be a non-issue.

 

[1ke]

Loren 1of6:

Has anyone thought of leaving the race question off of all applications, questionnaires, forms, etc? As long as the government and business worlds tell us that race is important, we will believe it.

I think it should actually be a non-issue.

The business world only gathers the information because the government requires it for EEOC reporting purposes to prove they don’t have discriminitory hiring practices.

I think that without this data, then it would be very difficult for individuals to get redress of their grievances if they did have a legitimate complaint against an employer or potential employer and very difficult for an employer to defend themselves against meritless litigation.

 

[1ke]

Kirane:

Are you sure that the Kennedys and the Irish generally, don’t receive special treatment in the Church that other groups don’t have?

Asked and answered. A petition for a decree of nullity is examined on its merits. You are insinuating that which you cannot prove, and are accusing the Church of some great, big conspiracy theory.

Kirane:

For example, isn’t it easy to get divorced and remain a Catholic in good standing if you are an Irish person, like the Kennedys?

All divorced persons are equal in the Church. A divorced person who has gone to confession has full access to the Sacraments. A divorced person that remarries outside the Church bar themselves from the Sacraments. A divorced Catholic who has received a decree of nullity is free to marry.

Kirane:

Also, there seem to be certain leeway given to Irish priests, like for example, there is one who they let write off color novels, and make a lot of money doing it.

There is no law against writing novels.

Kirane:

He is an Irishman, and you don’t have the Asian priests doing such things or being allowed to do this.

Asian priests aren’t forbidden from doing so.

Show me the Canon Law that forbids Asian priests from doing something that a non-Asian priest is allowed to do.

Kirane:

When this Irish priest was at the LA Cathedral he was greeted with open arms by another Irish priest Cardinal Mahony. And I understand that this Irish priest, i guess his name is Greely or something like that, is actually in favor of birith control and thinks that the rule against birth control is wrong.

Nothing wrong with a bishop greeting a priest. I do not know Greeley’s position on this particular church teaching-- so I can make no comment on that.

Kirane:

Isn’t it ture that he is against the Catholic teaching on birth control - I heard that someplace, maybe someone can clarify it.

Please provide proof.

Kirane:

Also, they have Irish priests in charge of Catholic theology departments, and they give them a lot of leeway as to what they can teach. For example, there is an Irishman by the name of Father McBrien who is the head of the theology department at Notre Dame University in the USA, and they allow him to teach all kinds of things that are not in accord with strict Catholicism,

“They” who? They, the adminstrators of Notre Dame, not “they”, the Church.

Kirane:

whereas the Asian priests are a lot more careful about what they are teaching.

This does not prove discrimination against Asians. Show me any discrimination against Asians.

Your arguments add up to zero.

You are paranoid and argue from emotion, not facts. I will remove myself from this ridiculous thread before I say something very uncharitable. I am done posting to you.

 

[Loren_1of6]

1ke:

I think that without this data, then it would be very difficult for individuals to get redress of their grievances if they did have a legitimate complaint against an employer or potential employer and very difficult for an employer to defend themselves against meritless litigation.

All that meritless litigation being a whole 'nother thread.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Kirane:

Don’t we have an example of a double standard here – one for the Japanese Americans and the other for the Irish. The Japanese Americans are not supposed to mention their illegal internment in concentration camps during WWII as evidence of discrimination, but it is OK, and no one has raised a peep, concerning the raising of the question of Irish Americans working on railroads (of their own free will). Why is it OK to mention the irrelevant topic of Irish working on railroads, and nobody has objected to it, but it is not OK to mention the illegal internment of Japanese Americans during WWII. Is not this another example of how Japanese Americans have been discriminated against on this thread and in the USA?

Kirane, I am getting tired of having to dumb everything down for you. The reason that I posted anything about Irish people was to show how ridiculous that kind of argument is (the “we were discriminated against in the past, so we should get AA” argument). The point of me posting that was to say that just because a group was discriminated against in THE PAST doesn’t mean that they should recieve AA NOW. My argument was not to convince you that the Irish were discriminated against; it was to show you that just because they were doesn’t make AA something they can recieve. You were just trying to argue that Asians are discriminated against by everyone.

And then, to go even further, you invent a giant racial Church conspiracy giving Irish people special rights to divorce, preach heresy, and write books. Do you not see the ridiculousness of that? Do you not see the hypocracy of saying that Asians are discriminated against, and that that is wrong, and then attacking Irish people? Come on.

 

[Kirane]

1ke:

There is no law against writing novels.
.

So there is nothing wrong with the off color novels of the Irish priest Father Greely? Doesn’t he use bad words a lot in his novels and refer to private parts? And doesn’t he refer to religious things and sacred things using profanity? And doesn’t he make a lot of money doing this? Is this a good way for a priest to make money? I don’t think I can agree with you on that. I think it is better to make money honestly, especially for a Catholic priest. It looks shameful to me when you imply that there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Kirane]

Rand Al'Thor:

The reason that I posted anything about Irish people was to show how ridiculous that kind of argument is (the “we were discriminated against in the past, so we should get AA” argument). The point of me posting that was to say that just because a group was discriminated against in THE PAST doesn’t mean that they should recieve AA NOW. .

OK. I see it now. You have to realise that it is difficult to understand a complicated argument sometimes if English is not your native language. I thought that you implied that Asians were unfairly receiving AA, and that you gave me a challenge to show that they were not.

 

[vluvski]

Kirane:

So there is nothing wrong with the off color novels of the Irish priest Father Greely? Doesn’t he use bad words a lot in his novels and refer to private parts? And doesn’t he refer to religious things and sacred things using profanity? And doesn’t he make a lot of money doing this? Is this a good way for a priest to make money? I don’t think I can agree with you on that. I think it is better to make money honestly, especially for a Catholic priest. It looks shameful to me when you imply that there is nothing wrong with it.

Fr. Greely’s actions/novels and their propriety as a Catholic priest have nothing to do with discrimination. After all, he has to be some race, doesn’t he? The Catholic Church remains silent on many issues, and the fact that Fr. Greely happens to be Irish doesn’t even begin to prove that the Catholic Church grants concessions for immorality to the Irish.

Racial backgrounds are like turds. Everyone has 'em, and since all the nutrients have gotten used up, all they amount to is a pile of poo.

 

[Arwen037]

My problem with Affirmative Action comes from the fact it puts me at risk to be turned down for colleges in favor of someone with a lower qualification JUST because they were born with darker skin. When I discussed this issue with my mother she made the suggestion that maybe people from schools that are less qualified than most should be given an advantage to level to playing field. In other words if someone scores lower on the ACT because their school is bad and didn’t teach them enough, they could have a little help on college admissions, regardless of race.

 

[matt1985]

I as a white man, do not feel it is my responsibility to make up for every bad thing that ever happened to minorities. AA may have been necessary during the civil rights movement, but now it isn’t IMO. A lot of the problems in the black community are caused by hip hop music IMO. Today’s hip hop music has no redeeming value. It’s just pure filth. Too many blacks and minorities emulate the hip hop life style, which will lead them no where.

There were times when black people beat my mother when she was in HS. Someone hit her as hard as he could in the back of her head. Another time a bunch of black girls tried to jump my mother and her friends, but some guys she knew stopped them. Racism exists on both sides. It is wrong for the govt. to assign blame to one group and allow another group to have special privileges.

 

[Kirane]

vluvski:

the fact that Fr. Greely happens to be Irish doesn’t even begin to prove that the Catholic Church grants concessions for immorality to the Irish…

But what about the head of the theology department in Notre Dame, Father Richard McBrien? Doesn’t he preach a lot against strict Catholicism and isn’t he Irish? Where do you find an Asian priest preaching against strict Catholicism?
I thought that Catholicism was a hierarchical structure and that a priest is obedient to his bishop. If an Irish priest has an Irish bishop that allows him to write off color novels with a lot of profanity and references to body parts and disrepect for the sacred things, and a lot of bad language including the **** word, and lets him make a lot of money by this potboiling type of vulgarity, isn’t that a different situation which would be faced by an Asian priest with a strict Asian bishop as his boss and who does not allow such shameful things? I saw in the newspaper that Father Greely is very friendly with the Irish Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles at the LA Cathedral. And by the way, doesn’t the Irish Cardinal Mahoney have these yearly sessions with all kinds of dissenting priests giving their latest views against strict Catholic teaching? I read about it in the Catholic newspaper called the Wanderer?
And I still think that it has been shown in a book that it was easy for the Kennedys to get a divorce approved in the Catholic Church. And their big friend before, a while back, was Cardinal Cushing, a very powerful Irishman in the Catholic Church. Maybe it was a joke when you people are saying that the Irish should get AA and then later on you say you really mean the opposite of what you are saying. But it doesn’t sound right to me. It looks like maybe something is very wrong with some of the Irish Catholics in the USA. Aren’t many of the Irish Catholic politicians in favor of abortion?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Kirane:

But what about the head of the theology department in Notre Dame, Father Richard McBrien? Doesn’t he preach a lot against strict Catholicism and isn’t he Irish? Where do you find an Asian priest preaching against strict Catholicism?
I thought that Catholicism was a hierarchical structure and that a priest is obedient to his bishop. If an Irish priest has an Irish bishop that allows him to write off color novels with a lot of profanity and references to body parts and disrepect for the sacred things, and a lot of bad language including the **** word, and lets him make a lot of money by this potboiling type of vulgarity, isn’t that a different situation which would be faced by an Asian priest with a strict Asian bishop as his boss and who does not allow such shameful things? I saw in the newspaper that Father Greely is very friendly with the Irish Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles at the LA Cathedral. And by the way, doesn’t the Irish Cardinal Mahoney have these yearly sessions with all kinds of dissenting priests giving their latest views against strict Catholic teaching? I read about it in the Catholic newspaper called the Wanderer?
And I still think that it has been shown in a book that it was easy for the Kennedys to get a divorce approved in the Catholic Church. And their big friend before, a while back, was Cardinal Cushing, a very powerful Irishman in the Catholic Church. Maybe it was a joke when you people are saying that the Irish should get AA and then later on you say you really mean the opposite of what you are saying. But it doesn’t sound right to me. It looks like maybe something is very wrong with some of the Irish Catholics in the USA. Aren’t many of the Irish Catholic politicians in favor of abortion?

You know, it’s funny. The person who is complaining the most about unjust discrimination is the person that sounds the most racist…

Yes, the thing about Irish people getting AA was a joke…I’ve said that two or three times now. Just because a few priests that you named happen to be of Irish descent doesn’t mean that the Church allows dissent as long as someone is Irish. You can’t seriously believe that, can you? You took a joke that I used to make a point and turned it into a Church conspiracy and a chance to bash Irish people.

Are there Asian priests that teach unorthodox things? Probably. But does that mean that all Asian priests do it and it’s OK as long as they’re Asian? No. That would be ridiculous and if I said it you would tell me so. Do you realize that you were COMPLAINING that Asian priests “have to” or “are forced to” teach correct doctrines? Why would that be a bad thing??? Are you mad because you think they can’t go out and preach heresy???

Have you noticed that about 99% of your arguments are phrased as “I think…”, “I thought…”, “But isn’t…”? These aren’t arguments based on anything but paranoid delusions that you have invented. Come on now.

Let me make this very clear for you: THERE IS NO CHURCH CONSPIRACY TO OPPRESS ASIAN PRIESTS AND LET IRISH PRIESTS WRITE BOOKS AND TEACH AT NOTRE DAME.

 

[ChrisR246]

Anglican77:

I understand the arguments against affirmative action and I also understand the reasoning behind labeling it “racism” as it fits the dictionary definition. However, in order for something to be labeled something so negative as racism, there would have to be severe consequences of using this practice.

You mean physical/monetary consequences. Certainly, since God made each and every one of us, hating or disliking someone, for any reason, including race, is wrong. Failing to love each other is severe.

Anglican77:

I seriously find it hard to believe any whites are truly suffering from this.

What you believe/do not believe does not change reality.

Anglican77:

and if they are, I am sure it pales in comparison to the hardships of the minorities past and present in this country.

It’s simplistic, but true - Two wrongs don’t make a right

Anglican77:

What angers me is not racial affirmative action, but economic affirmative action. The rich kid that gets into Harvard simply because mommy or daddy gave the school tons of money. The rich are already privileged, they don’t need preferential treatment from universities.

AA is government imposed preference. Your rich kid example is not AA.

 

[tjmiller]

What is euphemistically termed “affirmative action” is wrong, because it is inherently racist, sexist, etc., only in an inverted sense.

It violates the principle of merit.

 

[Kirane]

Rand Al'Thor:

You know, it’s funny. The person who is complaining the most about unjust discrimination is the person that sounds the most racist.

I am sorry that it is that way. For example, there was a report about an Irish Senator who was driving under the influence of alcohol and drove a young girl off of a bridge in Massachusetts and let her die in the water. But still the tribunals of the Catholic Church in Boston (where they have a lot of Irish Catholics) gave him permission to divorce and remarry and he was televised in 1995 at a big Mass that he was receiving Holy Communion. Even though his first wife was in a sorry state of alcohol dependency after all the problems her Irish husband caused her. And this Irish Senator is one of the very strong supporters of abortion rights in the USA.
Now, I never heard of such a case in Vietnam, where a Church tribunal in Vietnam let’s a man divorce his first wife in a situation like the one for the Irish Senator from Massachusetts. I don’t think that this man with that situation would have had much of a chance to get the Vietnamese Church to approve of his divorce and remarriage.

 

[tjmiller]

Are there really any true Catholics in Massachutsets?
We’d love to hear from you.

 

[vz71]

tjmiller:

Are there really any true Catholics in Massachutsets?
We’d love to hear from you.

 

[Anglican77]

ChrisR246:

You mean physical/monetary consequences. Certainly, since God made each and every one of us, hating or disliking someone, for any reason, including race, is wrong. Failing to love each other is severe.

What you believe/do not believe does not change reality.

It’s simplistic, but true - Two wrongs don’t make a right

AA is government imposed preference. Your rich kid example is not AA.

So do you believe that most minorities have the same opportunities and are treated on par with whites in most life situations? Do you think that if two people, equally qualified for a position, and one is black and the other is white, they both have a 50-50 chance of getting the job?

Rich kid example is AA, it is giving preferential treatment to someone whose parents attended the school. The government need not support it because no one cares about it since it doesn’t have anything to do with race. Apparently, we can give preferential treatment left and right to whomever we choose, just better not be about sex or race.

 

[vz71]

AA is the label placed upon the bias of one race or another made legal by the goverment.

Anything else is just prejudice.

.02

Z