Affordable Health Care is a Christian Act

[ComputerGeek25]

I did say “responsible”. Ever hear of the Road to Nowhere? Education is non-existent in spite of the trillions spent.

Then I would suggest you do likewise. You have a computer; sell it. You have internet access; get rid of it. Sell your TV and cancel your satellite subscription. Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. After you’ve done all that, then, and only then, will you have some moral authority to tell others what to do with their hard-earned money.

Simply throwing money at problems does not solve them. Canada and the UK still have issues with their systems and are not the complete panacea people on here make them out to be.

 

[sedonaman]

Simply throwing money at problems does not solve them. Canada and the UK still have issues with their systems and are not the complete panacea people on here make them out to be.

In view of the record of socialism, I can’t figure out why it still has any kind of following. It were as though the world were divided into two kinds of people: those who seek the betterment of society through do-able means, and those who want to shovel money into the streets, hoping it will do some good and to assuage their own conscience. Of course, they have the right to do that with their own money, but no right to use their franchise to demand the government force their beliefs on others.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Greece can say the same thing about Capitalism…"*look at the United States 1929 and 2008!" *Neither economic systems are perfect and Greece is recovering just like we are. The difference is the Greeks would never want our system of economics and labor. The Greeks are actually a lot more free then Americans, at least the Working Class where there is no such thing as "right to work" and "Employer at Will" Laws, which undermines a just and living wage. Neither is their such a thing as the working class not having health care or the working class going bankrupt because of medical bills.

** We don’t have to use Greece as an example either, we can use Germany or even the Netherlands or Canada. We can use the European Union where the Euro is stronger than the dollar. In all these “socialist” countries the economic system is working fine.** There has never been an example of a perfect economic system including the United States were Capitalism has failed several times. The difference is in these countries the common working class person is happier than the common working class person in the states because they have a lot less worries and therefore a lot more peace.

Peace,
David

I would argue Germany is more Christian Democratic than Socialist (Social Democratic) due to their emphasis on subsidiarity, how their welfare system is set up, and for having a social market economy.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

1)Some bishops on a borad at the USCCB say that health care ought to be available to all people. That is not an endorsment of any socialized sysytem. You fail to make the distinction. Universal healthcare systems like Obamacare and other socialized systems violate the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. This principle itself likes in stark contrast to anything based in socialism/communism.

So the fact is that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

2)The opinions of a group of bishops speaking on temporal matters like this is no different than this same group of Bishops saying that they like the Boston Red Sox. There opinion on this is not binding an all faithfull.

3)That they are right is nothing but your opinion. Plain and simple. And given your previous statements and your position outside of the Church your hardly in a position to tell me what to believe.

Universal health care doesn’t = Socialized medicine. Look at Switzerland.

 

[Jobu]

It makes me very sad to hear many of you that think you prefer socialism to rugged individualism and capitalism. I’m sad that you are uninformed about what you dream is behind the magic curtain even though countless people at this moment suffer under what you want and long for what you have. I’m sad that so many people want to end the great experiment in freedom and the Great Republic we have. It boggles my mind that you don’t realize that there is no other country to go to that practices freedom, no other place left to find what you have here, no way to go back. In a mere 200 years our system of government helped us build a country that developed more than all socialist countries combined could build in thousands of years and then won two great wars started by socialists.

What is saddest of all is that you relate one of the greatest evils in the world to Christianity and salvation. How spoiled and brainwashed we are with our flat screens, computers, and video games. We have a right to everything. I don’t wonder how grandparents and great grandparents who fought for and helped build this country would feel about your preference for socialism. Mine like millions of others came here from Europe and the rest of the world to escape from it.

Yes, Christ healed others for free as some of you say but he did so in spite of the government not in accordance with it. If you want to relate socialism to goodness of the Church, I ask you to pray and read the about Our Lady of Fatima. Socialists have long protested against the telling of her story. Even if her message escapes you, for the sake of the Church please don’t try to sell socialism as the will of His Church lest you take it down with you.

 

[JimG]

The government spends other peoples money when it builds roads and bridges, provides police and fire protection, Libraries, education. **Jesus endorsed spending other peoples money when he said “Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.” **Not only Jesus but so did Saint Paul and the Apostles when they required all the earned income and proceeds from the the sale of assets to be divided evenly so that no needs were left unmet (2 Cor 8:12-14). All the wealth of the world belongs to God and we are onlly stewards of God’s wealth.

Peace,
David

Really? Is this a traditional exegesis of this text? I wonder just how much federal policy can be read into this little text. It has always seemed to me that he was simply refusing to answer the question that was put to him: “Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” Either a yes or a no would have gotten him in trouble so he avoided the question entirely and said something which told them nothing, while avoiding their attempted trap.

 

[mitex]

The Bishops offered to design Obama’s healthcare plan for him! I’m sure the offer is still on the table.

I guarantee if we let the Bishops and USCCB draw up a healthcare plan with universal access it will have some kind of government option.

 

[je333]

One thing that is often overlooked in this controversy is that the intent of President Obama’s Affordable Health Care Act is fix one of the biggest disgraces of the USA, namely that we are the last industrialized country without a national health care system, and this results in an incalculable amount of suffering, death and hardship for Americans.

Let’s talk about the immoral situation that has been the USA without a decent health care system: The 45,000 people dying in the USA for lack of adequate health care. The 62% of bankruptcies resulting from family medical costs, the 50% (over half a million homes) of foreclosures that came from medical costs. If such death and hardship were caused by a natural disaster or enemy attack, it would be an unparalleled catastrophe, but it’s been happening every year. Think about how much suffering comes from just one tragic death and then multiply it by 45,000, think about thousands of homeless families, and then you’ll realize that, in trying to finally find a solution to this mess, Obama is doing a very Christian and heroic thing.

We live in a pluralistic democracy which means we all pay taxes for things we don’t want to necessarily support – for the death penalty, for ongoing war, for weapons of mass destruction – but that’s the price we pay for living in this kind of society. We have to make the same (and actually minor) compromises to correct this moral evil of lack of health care access. Whether with the progressive Single Payer plan or this conservative solution of business/individual mandated health insurance, various groups paying indirectly for something they would rather not is just a reality of life, and one they should welcome in order to right the moral evil of lack of health care access.

I have international clients in Spain (AKA 70% Catholic Spain) and when I tell them about this controversy they think I am kidding. They would never dream of having a Catholic mandates in their national health care system.

So consider the fact that finally creating some kind of system for universal health care access – a concept long urged by US Council of Catholic Bishops – is in itself a humane act that would certainly qualify as Christian in terms of its goal of relieving the human suffering on a catastrophic scale that is going on in this country. Support the efforts in our country to correct this moral wrong.

Bravo! :bowdown:

 

[Balian]

With the costs of healthcare today I think it is obvious that some type of government mandated universal healthcare program is the only way that future Americans will be able to access affordable healthcare. But the Affordable Health Care Act is a sham. It doesn’t make healthcare either more affordable or accessible. The people that support it always say “it’s a step in the right direction.” That’s ridiculous. The government could make healthcare affordable and accessible with a stroke of a pen. President Obama promised change. All we got was a common, same old story politician who cares nothing about keeping any of his campaign promises and doesn’t even try to hide it. He is just another person who craves power and wanted to president to satiate those desires. He doesn’t give two cents for poor people or people lacking medical care. He only cares about himself and remaining in power as long as he can. He sees the poor as suckers who will vote for him if he tells them he will give them free money from the government.

 

[je333]

Any political system is not a Christian Act/Religious Act. Politics and Religion are not the same. We must not mix the two together. Health Care however is very Jesus-Christian just as Jesus provided care for the sick and food for the poor, hungry and needy all free of charge.

 

[zenith15]

It makes me very sad to hear many of you that think you prefer socialism to rugged individualism and capitalism. I’m sad that you are uninformed about what you dream is behind the magic curtain even though countless people at this moment suffer under what you want and long for what you have. I’m sad that so many people want to end the great experiment in freedom and the Great Republic we have. It boggles my mind that you don’t realize that there is no other country to go to that practices freedom, no other place left to find what you have here, no way to go back. In a mere 200 years our system of government helped us build a country that developed more than all socialist countries combined could build in thousands of years and then won two great wars started by socialists.

What is saddest of all is that you relate one of the greatest evils in the world to Christianity and salvation. How spoiled and brainwashed we are with our flat screens, computers, and video games. We have a right to everything. I don’t wonder how grandparents and great grandparents who fought for and helped build this country would feel about your preference for socialism. Mine like millions of others came here from Europe and the rest of the world to escape from it.

Yes, Christ healed others for free as some of you say but he did so in spite of the government not in accordance with it. If you want to relate socialism to goodness of the Church, I ask you to pray and read the about Our Lady of Fatima. Socialists have long protested against the telling of her story. Even if her message escapes you, for the sake of the Church please don’t try to sell socialism as the will of His Church lest you take it down with you.

I have no flat screen TV (mine is fifteen years old), a very old computer that was given to me, and no video games. I do not own a smart phone. I haven’t a stick of furniture in my house that wasn’t given to me used or picked up from someone’s curbside discards.I have worked–hard–most of my life as has my husband, until he became disabled due to liver failure (this was NOT due to drinking, in case you were wondering). I would happily be willing to pay a reasonable amount considering my circumstances and income for health insurance/care. However, that is not available here. I consider myself a very resourceful person. However, resources–medical and otherwise–are usually completely or mostly inaccessible for those who are anything except mired in the most grueling of poverty. If your family makes even a small income from dad’s disability you are far too rich–in my state–to qualify for any assistance. I cannot see a dentist, period. I cannot get dentures. I cannot eat food due to this. I can no longer afford the $50 copay and the medication cost and the lab costs for my chronic diseases such as high blood pressure, extreme anxiety, Lupus, and GERD. I owe the local E.R. over 88 thousand dollars in bills I cannot pay. I cannot work as I have to care for my husband and special needs child.

Sorry I’m not enough of a “rugged individualist” for you, but it seems every other first world country knows that not everyone in their country is in a position to pay full cost, charge-what-you-will medical care and drug bills or to obtain insurance. IN my case right now the only way to obtain ANY type of insurance would be to get on the state High Risk Pool program, which about ten years ago we had my husband on briefly. It cost $900 per month and covered NO doctor visits, NO medication, no routine ANYTHING–ONLY catastrophic care, and even then there was a HUGE deductible.

All this rugged, pull yourself up by your bootstraps talk sounds well and good but it just isn’t reality. That is why we are the ONLY first world country left who lets our people go without such basics as food, housing and medical care.

 

[markomalley]

Any political system is not a Christian Act/Religious Act. Politics and Religion are not the same. We must not mix the two together. Health Care however is very Jesus-Christian just as Jesus provided care for the sick and food for the poor, hungry and needy all free of charge.

Just curious…

How many resources did Jesus use in providing this care for the sick, food for the poor, etc.?

How many employees did Jesus have to pay to help him out?

Did Jesus’ suppliers provide Him with guaze, medicines, tools, test and measurement equipment, etc., for free?

How much student loan debt did Jesus carry from his 8 years of medical school?

How much did Jesus have to pay on his mortgage for His wife and kids? What was His savings plan so that He could send His kids to college?

**The answer to the question regarding food: **He did not go to Herod or Pilate or the Chief Priests (who ran Judah) to have either collect taxes to buy food so that He could have a semi roll in with emergency rations. He had his apostles gather what food they could from the poor themselves and then *miraculously *multiplied that (ending up with more leftover food than what they had to begin with).

**The answer regarding healings: **He did not use medical techniques to heal the sick. He *spiritually *healed them. The only supplies He used (once) was some mud wet with His spittle (dirt, back in those days, was free, by the way). He did not establish a series of hospitals (where the builders and suppliers had to be paid). He did not have a medical staff that He was responsible for. He did not have to pay a house mortgage. He did not have a wife or children for whom He was responsible (and whose support would make it necessary for Him to gain income), and so on.

In other words, if we routinely had the ability to perform miracles involving the multiplication of food, we should absolutely perform those miracles for the poor free of charge. If we had the gifts of healings, we should 100% freely distribute those gifts, as God sees fit for us to distribute. But that is simply not the norm. There are costs involved.

So while I absolutely agree that healing the sick, clothing the naked, and feeding the hungry are absolutely the Christian thing to do, I think using Jesus’ example as to why those things should be provided by the government is a flawed example, at best.

While there is no Biblical example of how medical care should be provided to the sick, there are definite examples of how God would have us set up feeding the poor: In the Old Testament, we see this:

[BIBLEDRB]Lev 19:9-10[/BIBLEDRB]

Now as far as healing the sick, perhaps the Christian example would be to look to Padre Pio’s great work, Casa Sollievo della Sofferenza. This hospital, one of the best in Italy, was founded and constructed with absolutely ZERO government money.

 

[Eugenius]

Then I would suggest you do likewise. You have a computer; sell it. You have internet access; get rid of it. Sell your TV and cancel your satellite subscription. Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. After you’ve done all that, then, and only then, will you have some moral authority to tell others what to do with their hard-earned money.

Jesus Christ already told us to do that and HE does have the moral authority. The longer this discussion continues the more obvious it becomes how much people are obsessed with money and what is “theirs.” Everything we have is a gift from God and can be taken away. We are among the wealthiest people in the world and yet we fear that someone is going to take away what we hoard and give it to someone who is in pain or is dying. Then we praise this for being the best system in the world. Who do we think we are fooling? Do you really believe this is what God desires?

 

[Andromedus]

It makes me very sad to hear many of you that think you prefer socialism to rugged individualism and capitalism. I’m sad that you are uninformed about what you dream is behind the magic curtain even though countless people at this moment suffer under what you want and long for what you have. I’m sad that so many people want to end the great experiment in freedom and the Great Republic we have. It boggles my mind that you don’t realize that there is no other country to go to that practices freedom, no other place left to find what you have here, no way to go back.

Read a bit to much Atlas Shrugged have we?

In a mere 200 years our system of government helped us build a country that developed more than all socialist countries combined could build in thousands of years and then won two great wars started by socialists.

This either means that the old Soviet Union (+ some other countries) would not have been able to accomplish what you have done in 200 years even they would exist for thousands of years or you meant that all countries before the USA was socialistic and you have accomplished more than all of them in 200 years. Which is it? What wars are you talking about?

What is saddest of all is that you relate one of the greatest evils in the world to Christianity and salvation. How spoiled and brainwashed we are with our flat screens, computers, and video games. We have a right to everything. I don’t wonder how grandparents and great grandparents who fought for and helped build this country would feel about your preference for socialism. Mine like millions of others came here from Europe and the rest of the world to escape from it.

He was talking about health care, not flat screens, a bit different don’t you think? And, just because I am a bit curious, what countries are you talking about?

Yes, Christ healed others for free as some of you say but he did so in spite of the government not in accordance with it. If you want to relate socialism to goodness of the Church, I ask you to pray and read the about Our Lady of Fatima. Socialists have long protested against the telling of her story. Even if her message escapes you, for the sake of the Church please don’t try to sell socialism as the will of His Church lest you take it down with you.

I don’t think the Emperor cared much or even heard about it and while I might be wrong, does Socialists really care about Our Lady of Fatima? However your whole post sounds a bit to much like Trollish Socialism-bashing and nationalistic for my taste so I will go and find myself some steel now, a Bible, a crucifix and only walk outside during daylight.*

*To clarify, in Scandinavian folklore Trolls don’t like steel, holy objects or the Sun.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Universal health care doesn’t = Socialized medicine. Look at Switzerland.

Swissguy, how is the care in Swiss system paid for?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

It is YOU GreyPilgrim who does not know what you are talking about! Not some Bishops from the USCCB but the vast majority of them! It is no more an “opinion” than their “opinion” on abortion. The USCCB have endorsed universal health care since 1981. If it violated subsidiary than the Church would be calling for the abolishment of Universal Health Care in every other country including the Vatican! Subsidiary is not even violated in the Netherlands.
david, your emotional rhetoric notwithstanding, you seem to be a sincere person, and I understand your concern for the poor and immigrants, but any universal system is a socialized system because it is either administrated and subsidized by the state, or subsidized by the state and administrated by “private” companies under extensive government regulations. These government collect excessive taxes to pay for these systems under the guise of “fairness”. They are socialistic/communistic in nature, hence subsidiarity has been violated.
ccc: 1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7

1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

The real lie that you and others seem to not see is that no universal system will bring down costs because you all think that insurance is a magic bullet for cheap care when the truth is exactly the opposite. None of you have any idea how insurance works and what drives costs up.
davidmlamb;9219642:

Your OPINION here is preposterous and corrupted by right wing conservatism which is another gospel in direct conflict with the gospel if Jesus Christ. I direct your attention to Galatians 1:6-9 for rejecting the Gospel in favor of a different gospel, and to the USCCB on Universal Health Care. It clearly implies that government is responsible for administering it.

old.usccb.org/healthcare/faqs.shtml

David

david, its not really wise to try and pigeon-hole someone you know nothing about. Pegging me as being in bed with “right-wing conservatism” is insulting and is proof that you’re not listening to me.

At best the Bishops opinion is that the government is responsible for supporting states to make sure the underpriveledged have access to state programs. You’re overstating their position.

BTW, last time I read the Bible “Universal health care for all” was not in Gal 1:6-9. Prooftexting as a pretext is bad form, for protestants as well as Catholics.

I endorse a plan for universal access to health care that doesn’t involve either health insurance, health insurance companies, or socialized care. All of you who advocate UHC keep insisting that the middle-man is necessary.

All I’m saying is eliminate the middle-man. This is not “right-wing”, its common sense.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

With the costs of healthcare today I think it is obvious that some type of government mandated universal healthcare program is the only way that future Americans will be able to access affordable healthcare. But the Affordable Health Care Act is a sham. It doesn’t make healthcare either more affordable or accessible. The people that support it always say “it’s a step in the right direction.” That’s ridiculous. The government could make healthcare affordable and accessible with a stroke of a pen. President Obama promised change. All we got was a common, same old story politician who cares nothing about keeping any of his campaign promises and doesn’t even try to hide it. He is just another person who craves power and wanted to president to satiate those desires. He doesn’t give two cents for poor people or people lacking medical care. He only cares about himself and remaining in power as long as he can. He sees the poor as suckers who will vote for him if he tells them he will give them free money from the government.

Sorry, the health insurance system itself is inherently a flawed system. There is no way that the government can cut costs & make it “better” except to cap prices and therefore ration care. And even that will put not only insurance companies but also doctors and hospitals out of business because costs will continue to sore while revenue remains stagnant.

Even if you confiscated the liquid assets and property of every “rich” person in the country, basically squeezing them dry, and putting that money into the hc system it would only be a drop in the ocean that is hc costs.

The more people you put on the rolls, the more “comprehensive” you make it or the more benefits you pile on, the more you raise costs. It is a moster that will devour itself and our entire economy along with it.

 

[je333]

Just curious…

How many resources did Jesus use in providing this care for the sick, food for the poor, etc.?

How many employees did Jesus have to pay to help him out?

Did Jesus’ suppliers provide Him with guaze, medicines, tools, test and measurement equipment, etc., for free?

How much student loan debt did Jesus carry from his 8 years of medical school?

How much did Jesus have to pay on his mortgage for His wife and kids? What was His savings plan so that He could send His kids to college?

**The answer to the question regarding food: **He did not go to Herod or Pilate or the Chief Priests (who ran Judah) to have either collect taxes to buy food so that He could have a semi roll in with emergency rations. He had his apostles gather what food they could from the poor themselves and then *miraculously *multiplied that (ending up with more leftover food than what they had to begin with).

**The answer regarding healings: **He did not use medical techniques to heal the sick. He *spiritually *healed them. The only supplies He used (once) was some mud wet with His spittle (dirt, back in those days, was free, by the way). He did not establish a series of hospitals (where the builders and suppliers had to be paid). He did not have a medical staff that He was responsible for. He did not have to pay a house mortgage. He did not have a wife or children for whom He was responsible (and whose support would make it necessary for Him to gain income), and so on.

In other words, if we routinely had the ability to perform miracles involving the multiplication of food, we should absolutely perform those miracles for the poor free of charge. If we had the gifts of healings, we should 100% freely distribute those gifts, as God sees fit for us to distribute. But that is simply not the norm. There are costs involved.

So while I absolutely agree that healing the sick, clothing the naked, and feeding the hungry are absolutely the Christian thing to do, I think using Jesus’ example as to why those things should be provided by the government is a flawed example, at best.

While there is no Biblical example of how medical care should be provided to the sick, there are definite examples of how God would have us set up feeding the poor: In the Old Testament, we see this:

[BIBLEDRB]Lev 19:9-10[/BIBLEDRB]

Now as far as healing the sick, perhaps the Christian example would be to look to Padre Pio’s great work, Casa Sollievo della Sofferenza. This hospital, one of the best in Italy, was founded and constructed with absolutely ZERO government money.

Then Health Care should be the responsibility of the Church don’t you think? But since the Church don’t provide free health care and free food then the government must step in to help those who are neglected, abandoned, outcast, oppressed, marginalized, homeless, etc. And those act that Obama is doing to help the poor are indeed very Christian/religious in nature. I wish there was more Mother Theresas, Padre Pios, Jesuses in our Catholic Church to tackle the problems of the poor people who don’t have any access to medical care and other basic needs.

 

[je333]

Socialists have long protested against the telling of her story.

Not exactly correct! Atheistic socialists did. Not all socialists or communists are atheists, you see. And as an FYI, socialism, communism are social and economic forms not a form of government.

The word communism is not a bad word.

French communisme, from commun, common, from Old French, from Latin commnis; see commune2.

com·mune 1 (k-myn)
intr.v. com·muned, com·mun·ing, com·munes

1. To be in a state of intimate, heightened sensitivity and receptivity, as with one’s surroundings: hikers communing with nature.
2. To receive the Eucharist.

Communism is a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of a classless, moneyless, revolutionary and stateless socialist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.

Communism
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

Communism with a little change and with theism will work just fine!!! Nothing to be afraid of. God will guide us no matter what form of government we are heading into. We survived Capitalism, why can’t we survive Socialism/Communism? Do not be afraid. Trust in Jesus Christ. He will always be with us. Amen.

 

[Holly3278]

Personally I am all for universal health care with preferably a single payer system. However, I would only be for it so long as objectionable things that some people consider “health care” like abortion and contraceptives were left out.