Affordable Health Care is a Christian Act

[ACCT]

We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning – the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever.

Surely these are they who, as the sacred Scriptures testify, “Defile the flesh, despise dominion and blaspheme majesty.” They leave nothing untouched or whole which by both human and divine laws has been wisely decreed for the health and beauty of life. They refuse obedience to the higher powers, to whom, according to the admonition of the Apostle, every soul ought to be subject, and who derive the right of governing from God; and they proclaim the absolute equality of all men in rights and duties. They debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is “the root of all evils which some coveting have erred from the faith,” they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life. These are the startling theories they utter in their meetings, set forth in their pamphlets, and scatter abroad in a cloud of journals and tracts. Wherefore, the revered majesty and power of kings has won such fierce hatred from their seditious people that disloyal traitors, impatient of all restraint, have more than once within a short period raised their arms in impious attempt against the lives of their own sovereigns.

…But the boldness of these bad men, which day by day more and more threatens civil society with destruction, and strikes the souls of all with anxiety and fear, finds its cause and origin in those poisonous doctrines which, spread abroad in former times among the people, like evil seed bore in due time such fatal fruit.

Quod Apostolici Muneris​

I think Leo XIII said it far better than I ever could.

Oh, and by the way, before you point out that you’re not talking about communism here…

…no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.

John XXIII, Mater et Magistra 34​

And before you point out that we’re not even talking about socialism here:

In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State.

John Paul II, Centesimus Annus 48​

Disobedience to God is the beginning of all problems!

 

[PeVee]

Charity doesn’t come from the strong arm of the government.

I don’t remember who said it, “Capitalism is the worst ecomonic system there is, except for all the others.”

 

[theswan]

One thing that is often overlooked in this controversy is that the intent of President Obama’s Affordable Health Care Act is fix one of the biggest disgraces of the USA, namely that we are the last industrialized country without a national health care system, and this results in an incalculable amount of suffering, death and hardship for Americans.

Let’s talk about the immoral situation that has been the USA without a decent health care system: The 45,000 people dying in the USA for lack of adequate health care. The 62% of bankruptcies resulting from family medical costs, the 50% (over half a million homes) of foreclosures that came from medical costs. If such death and hardship were caused by a natural disaster or enemy attack, it would be an unparalleled catastrophe, but it’s been happening every year. Think about how much suffering comes from just one tragic death and then multiply it by 45,000, think about thousands of homeless families, and then you’ll realize that, in trying to finally find a solution to this mess, Obama is doing a very Christian and heroic thing.

We live in a pluralistic democracy which means we all pay taxes for things we don’t want to necessarily support – for the death penalty, for ongoing war, for weapons of mass destruction – but that’s the price we pay for living in this kind of society. We have to make the same (and actually minor) compromises to correct this moral evil of lack of health care access. Whether with the progressive Single Payer plan or this conservative solution of business/individual mandated health insurance, various groups paying indirectly for something they would rather not is just a reality of life, and one they should welcome in order to right the moral evil of lack of health care access.

I have international clients in Spain (AKA 70% Catholic Spain) and when I tell them about this controversy they think I am kidding. They would never dream of having a Catholic mandates in their national health care system.

So consider the fact that finally creating some kind of system for universal health care access – a concept long urged by US Council of Catholic Bishops – is in itself a humane act that would certainly qualify as Christian in terms of its goal of relieving the human suffering on a catastrophic scale that is going on in this country. Support the efforts in our country to correct this moral wrong.

Thanks I could not have said it better. I know what you have in your heart and applaud you for that. New testament was clear that we follow the laws on man-man is not always right. Mr Obama did a bold noble thing in an attempt to help the middle class and poor and there is no thanking him just “outrage” goodness he has been compared to Hitler! Shame shame! For what? healthcare affordable act? Examine your heart is he evil?

Glen

 

[Elisabeth51]

I have no insurance, I have never made more than poverty level wages, I have been denied gov’t help because I have no children (eek, a Virgin, kill her!)…before I moved to California, I had a generous and compassionate Christian (Coptic Orthodox) doctor that cared for me and my diabetes without charge. Here I go to the Order of Malta clinic. I hope and pray that someday I will make enough to pay on my own and not have to do this.

My opinion on national healthcare, I don’t want it. I have been to the VA with my father and brothers, I have seen men die because they were waiting because of red tape. My income taxes don’t count at this point, but I do have other taxes to pay and I do not want to pay more into a gov’t that hands out to people in such a bad fashion. People truly in need do not get, people who need to get up and work get. I know this is hard economic times—so give them a broom and a bucket and tell them to clean the street. The street will be clean and they have earned their gov’t care.

For centuries the Church and community took care of these needs of the poor, of healthcare and food and education. WE are the ones who should be helping people, not the government. The gov’t can stick to highways and defense and stay out of the business of healthcare and food programs. I want to work for what I have, I help out in many things because I do not have the money to give, I do not want someone to hand me something because I am poor. I want to work for it, or at the very least, give back when I am able. It’s not free, you are paying for it with taxes, do you really trust the gov’t to appropriately decide who gets what care and what equipment? I think they do a terrible job personally.

I firmly believe and agree we are supposed to care for those less fortunate, but I do not think that is the job of the gov’t, it is OUR job as Christians. Maybe more doctors should be like the one I had, he knew I could not afford and I know I got the same care as everyone else. If you pay less taxes, you would have more to give to the Church to do this job of caring for the needy.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Well, I’ve made my points and they all still stand. This thread is starting to devolve in that internet way. I’ll just sum up with this: ** If Catholics want to do the right, moral thing, they will help the president set up a national health care system, not obstruct it.
**

You are assuming too much. You think that just because the ends are fine that the methods don’t matter. That is absolutely untrue. No one would disagree with you that having healthcare for everyone would be great. Only someone truly evil would disagree with that. However, what the source of the opposition is to this bill (at least for me) is the method by which that is done. In essence, the force of the state compels people to do what they say, not to mention the other burdens placed on private businesses.

Besides the problem of this making the state appear as a god there are others. Remember, this is what the progressive goal was in the early 20th century: replace religion and institute a religion of the state. The other point is subsidiarity, an oft forgotten Catholic principle. "Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority. " Nationalized health care goes way, way past subsidiarity.

I hope I’ve given you something to think about.

 

[theswan]

Really? helping Satan set up his kingdom on Earth? can ya be a little more dramatic?

That and the 50% of earning power stat gotta go.

It’s an attempt to help not hurt! Well anyway, Satan has got Canada! Seems like such a nice place, clean streets, polite folks saying “Eh” Too bad the socialist satan has gotten hold lol

I’m proud to be a union loving democrat who supports my president (except on bailouts, the patriot act and no going far enough to suggest medicare for all, yes! I man “social free medical care” there I said it, send me off to my doom)

Glen

 

[Teresa_of_Iowa]

The Church has also supported universal health care since 1919. This attitude I’ve seen in America of “health care is great as long as I don’t have to pay for someone else”, I find selfish and appalling. In the US, some lives are more important than others.

What I find selfish and appalling is the number of people who think someone else should pay for their health care. Especially people who could work but don’t.

Will you find it morally objectionable when it is decided that you, your mother, your father, or your spouse is too old to receive the care your doctor thinks they should have? Or for some other reason it is denied? I just had a friend die because he was deemed to not be “eligible” for further care. He was on medicare and medicaid. Do you think that is going to change? It will - It will get worse. It already happens in other countries. In Canada there is a 40 week wait for the orthopedic specialist.

To the person who talked about 45 million without health care - many of those are young and healthy, or self employed who choose not to have health care, or they have catastrophic health care. And some are illegal aliens…illegal…does that mean anything?

We do need some revamping of our health care…but this is not the way to do it.

Teresa MSN, RN

 

[ProVobis]

So should we remove the MANDATE to administer emergency care regardless of that person’s ability to pay for it or not? Isn’t this MANDATE socialistic?

I confess it’s been years since I read Rand and von Misis.

 

[Ender]

** If Catholics want to do the right, moral thing, they will help the president set up a national health care system, not obstruct it. **

The idea that “Jesus supports my political solutions” has become a depressingly common argument and shows a total lack of understanding of even the basics of what makes actions moral or immoral.

The Church does not teach that we have a moral obligation to create a national health care system; she teaches that we have an obligation to alleviate the suffering of others as best we can. We must accept the obligation that objective places on us but how we go about satisfying that obligation is completely up to us and does not involve making any moral judgments.

There is nothing intrinsically evil about opposing a national health care system therefore opposition to it can be immoral only if the reason one opposes it is immoral. That is, it is our intent that (in the case of prudential choices) marks our actions as moral or immoral. If I believe that a national health care system won’t work then I am not only morally justified in opposing it but it would be immoral of me to support it believing that it would harm the people it is supposed to be helping.

I have no use for Obamacare and hope to see it entirely repealed, but I don’t engage in that debate because I prefer to focus solely on the idea that there is some great moral choice before us when in fact (virtually) none exists at all. We may have violent disagreements about which prudential choices will work but these are no more moral choices than deciding on the best way to fix one’s air conditioner.

Ender

 

[Teresa_of_Iowa]

So should we remove the MANDATE to administer emergency care regardless of that person’s ability to pay for it or not? Isn’t this MANDATE socialistic?

I confess it’s been years since I read Rand and von Misis.

Truthfully, that “mandate” is over-utilized. That mandate was to protect and provide for those who were truly in a need of emergent health care - they will die without care - but it is used for everyone…from the truly needy - to the sore throat. Sorry, a sore throat is not an emergency. This is an abuse of the system. It is a waste of resources. That is an example of something that needs to be changed.

Teresa MSN, RN

 

[worldpaz]

… Obama is doing a very Christian and heroic thing.

We live in a pluralistic democracy which means we all pay taxes for things we don’t want to necessarily support – for the death penalty, for ongoing war, for weapons of mass destruction – but that’s the price we pay for living in this kind of society. We have to make the same (and actually minor) compromises to correct this moral evil of lack of health care access. Whether with the progressive Single Payer plan or this conservative solution of business/individual mandated health insurance, various groups paying indirectly for something they would rather not is just a reality of life, and one they should welcome in order to right the moral evil of lack of health care access.

…

Yikes, Obama and heroic in the same sentence? You’re kidding, right?

What is so heroic about ObamaCare trumping over the conscience that was formed over 2000 years? Yes, we pay taxes and the government dispenses it but when Roe vs Wade was passed, there was an understanding that people who objected to abortions were not going to pay for them. The bishops and Christian religious everywhere were not as outspoken about this HHS until the egregious mandate was made. To force people to pay for something that is against their beliefs is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

What is also astonishing is that he gave a pass to the Amish, Christian Science, and Muslims but not to Christians overall, specifically Catholics who have created Hospitals, Universities/Schools, Soup kitchens, etc. that were done so as part of their mission to be Christians.

Obama is a brilliant man to have thought of a way to undermine the Catholic Christian principles or have their buildings and programs taken away from them if they don’t pay the exorbitant fines (over $300,000 (THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND) each day). Really, a hero … because he sneakingly is able to garner funds for his ObamaScare from people who opposed it then is able to appropriate their property when they refuse or is no longer able to pay unjust fines?

The bishops and Catholic church is NOT opposed to even a world-wide health care. My goodness, the church and followers has been trying to provide this for ages with the help of governments who truly are out for the welfare of their people. A good government works WITH institutions already in place to feed the hungry, shelter the poor, heal the sick, NOT against. What our leaders of good conscience are trying to do is save people in the way that doesn’t sacrifice our souls. Now THAT is heroic.

And by the way, do the people here even know what else is in this HHS? This mandate is just scratching the surface to what power grabbing people can do in the name of “service for the people.” Obama has said that he will have transparency while in office, so how come the HHS document is not open for people to view it? The few people who were able to read it has some alarming things to say about it. Many were informed during a rally in SF that in it’s recesses, the HHS manual contains plans for chip implants once the dust settles (a few years down the line).

See vid: youtu.be/55fae7Xn818

What price are you willing to give to have a “health service” that is able to impose anything to anyone without recrimination? Because, nothing is free … and believe me, this HHS thing will take your freedom, just as it is already trying to take away religious rights. And THAT is the evil you should worry about – just ask the people under communist regime like Castro (who, apparently, endorses Obama’s good works in this Health care).

I have been unemployed for over 3.5 years and my husband lost his job 2 months ago. Am I worried about health care? Absolutely. Am I willing to sell my soul to acquire Obama’s form of “Christian” “health care?” Heck no. The questions is: are you?

Trust in God, my friend. If our church leaders are telling you this HHS mandate and other things are not good, you may want to delve into the reasons why and not listen to the garbage that news media informs you. You can believe that bishops and church leaders (as a group/institution) always have and always will have the best interest at heart for our welfare. In my opinion, THEY are the heroic ones.

–

“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[Eugenius]

So should we remove the MANDATE to administer emergency care regardless of that person’s ability to pay for it or not? Isn’t this MANDATE socialistic?

I confess it’s been years since I read Rand and von Misis.

I’ve been wondering this myself, but you are the first person I’ve encountered who has actually asked it. Many uninsured people are already using the emergency room as their primary source for health care. When President Bush had the opportunity to deal with this problem, that was his solution. Guess who pays for it? I don’t remember anyone making a big fuss at that time, which made the “town hall debates” about health care reform come across more as a staged political circus than anything else.

 

[Holly3278]

I agree that the our healthcare system is a horrible one. However, I am not so sure that Obamacare is the best solution to the problem. I really have no idea what the best solution would be but the healthcare system in the United States definitely needed some serious reform. Whether or not Obamacare was the reform we needed was debatable. I think it would have been okay had it not been for certain things that go along with Obamacare such as the contraceptive mandate.

 

[InJesusItrust]

National healthcare is simply incompatible with individual rights. They have to go in the trash can. The best form of government could very well be a monarchy.

I find it odd that leftists degenerate religion, the one thing that gives conscience in a free society. What do you expect people with “freedom” will do when they don’t take religion seriously anymore? Do you really expect them to support the social good?

 

[Viki63]

Every industrialized nation except ours has some form of universal healthcare. The reason
Obamacare is no good is that it was was written by the insurance companies for the insurance companies, giving them a big profit at the expense of the rest of us. It does not deal with the rising cost of health care and it increases under-insurance for just about everybody. Also, 23 million Americans will remain uninsured. Single-payer national health insurance is a system in which a single public or quasi-public agency organizes health financing, but delivery of care remains largely private. That is what we need. It’s not perfect, but it makes sense that each of us should pay taxes and health care should be funded from the taxes.
We don’t need insurance companies profiting from our illnesses and injury. They provide nothing of value; we just pay them to limit care.

 

[Mountain_Spirit]

First of all Obamacare is not a Christian act or Christian charity, it is not Charity at all and it is not Christain at all. It is simply a socialistic act in which money is forceably (taxes) taken from one group of people and distributed to another. It replaces true charity which involves selfless giving through ones own volition. What it consists of is people using the convenient atheistic power hungry surrogate (i.e. the government) to replace true charity. The goverment is purely secular and is inefficient. It which wastes resources by the multiple layers of bureaucratics siphoning of funds at all levels. If anyone contributes directly to the health care of the poor that money is used efficiently whereas only a small percentage of the money given to the government gets to where it supposed to go. Most faith-based hospitals and health care centers are extremely efficient compared to the federal government.

That is the problem, a government which intrusively controls areas of people’s lives that should have nothing to do with the government. It is increasingly eliminating the need for religion since it is becoming it own religion.

 

[Andromedus]

The creed of socialism is ignorance - Winston Churchill. I am sorry that you do not see what I see.

Ok, ok you very much dislike socialism, I get it. Funny, I have been called by the name of two historical persons on the forums now: Spartacus and now Winston Churchill, but I admit that I don’t get Winston Churchill?

Satan’s plan has always been to have a one world government and a one world currency, etc. We are moving very rapidly in that direction. A national health care system is not about health care, it is about a system of government coertion.

I believe that you can describe this with the word speculation. The Church do not teach this. You might be correct when you guess this but you can hardly know that this is the truth.

The anti-Christ cannot ascend to power over the world without a system in place. Thirty years ago such a system was not in place; today that system is in place. Satan is showing his shameful face and Pride is ascending his earthly throne.

First of all, how do you know that? Second, what system? Are you saying that there is a world government now? Or what?

We can do nothing against evil by ourselves; however, with Christ we can destroy evil. I look forward to being part of Mary’s heel that will crush the head of that old serpent.

Ok.

P.S. I use to teach economics at a community college. Obamacare is not about economics. (Yes,there is over 60 years of solid economic research that says that sociaslism is a failure. e.g. minimum, wage, Social Insecurity, etc.) Obamacare is about spiritual warfare.

I doubt that Obama thinks he is waging spiritual warfare against anyone though.

 

[KWR_1]

When Jesus walked the Earth he choose to heal some sick people, but didn’t heal all of them. It is my belief that the reason people are no longer healed is because the LORD has chosen to let nature take it’s course. We can’t afford to save everyone that is sick. Death is a normal part of life.

 

[InJesusItrust]

When Jesus walked the Earth he choose to heal some sick people, but didn’t heal all of them. It is my belief that the reason people are no longer healed is because the LORD has chosen to let nature take it’s course. We can’t afford to save everyone that is sick. Death is a normal part of life.

Jesus said to be the light of the world. The light of the world wouldn’t argue against helping others for economic reasons. Euthanasia enthusiasts makes the same kind of argument for killing people society cannot “afford” to take care of. From my understanding the Catholic stance is neither capitalistic nor socialistic. Private property is allowed but caring for the common good is important as Catholics. Ultimately all property belongs to God.

As much as I utterly detest leftism they seem correct concerning healthcare. Were monarchs given authority I think the Catholic position would be to obey unless forced to do truly unChristian things. Resigning yourself to have to give your wealth for the common good does not sound unChristian to me, but sounds like something Jesus would approve of.

 

[Graubo3]

Well, I’ve made my points and they all still stand. This thread is starting to devolve in that internet way. I’ll just sum up with this: ** If Catholics want to do the right, moral thing, they will help the president set up a national health care system, not obstruct it.
**

I imagine Jerry Miah is on Obama’s payroll, either directly or indirectly.